main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

  2. Our celebration of the 20 Years of the Jedi Council is over!

    Here's to 20 more years!

  3. Our celebration of the 20 Years of the Jedi Council is over!

    Here's to 20 more!

Lit Imperial Distinctions-the legends and Canon empires

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth Invictus, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    In the Does a moral empire have a place thread, things became somewhat sidetracked comparing and contrasting the two empires of Canon and legends-their personnel, ideology, and history post Endor.

    I think this warrants a thread by itself.

    I'll start off the thread my giving my own take and opinion.

    The empire of legends had personnel that were far more self serving and ambitious than in canon, warlords fought to carve out their domains, scheming courtiers and officials vied for power on coruscant, and occasionally the empire in the legends civil war would have periods of resurgence against the NR. It seems that COMPNOR and other such programs of indoctrination were not particularly successful at least with the imperial elite. And likely not the soldiery or general population.

    In canon the empire remained mostly cohesive and largely perished in the year after Endor. With the FO being founded by exiled hardliners and fanatics.

    The FO seems very revanchist or Neo imperial in its ideology, while the remnant was always more pragmatic and only really advertised order as an ideological appeal.

    Eventually the legends empire evolved into the monarchy of the Felpire a far more benovelent institution than the empire in the days of palpatine.

    I prefer this story to canon but that's just my preference.

    Anyway the aim of this thread is to compare and contrast the two empires-their histories, personnel, ideologies, evolutions, and internal politics.
     
    Charlemagne19 likes this.
  2. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think STAR WARS is fundamentally a pro-democracy, anti-fascist work.

    I think in real life that fascism is objectively evil. There is a good and a bad and while that is influenced by my religious beliefs other people might not share--well, that doesn't change it. I think that when you adopt the view that fascism is "just another form of government that is equally valid" that you have made a Both Sides arguement that not only holds weight but has given credibility to something evil.

    Star Wars takes a firm moral stance on Good vs. Evil. It's fun to speculate on Lex Luthor's motives but he's not right. As Grant Morrison said, he likes to write Superman good, Lex Luthor Evil. Jedi are good, Sith are evil. As such, I never felt comfortable with the idea of the Empire being allowed to continue to exist after VIsions of the Future. Normally, I think we need more "peace treaties" and co-existence in science fiction franchises. However, the Empire is meant to stand-in for the Nazis. It's like if the North defeated the South in the Civil War and let them keep Lousiana in order to keep practicing chattle slavery.

    I also note that fans have bent over backward to do a lot of apologia for the Empire and often interpret things in a very Pro-Empire way and negative Anti-Republic way that doesn't always fit the text. For example, the Fel Empire is not only an absolute dictatorship that FAILS because Roan Fel is a corrupt and vile human being (is there any moment on-screen when he's not doing something detestable?) despite being raised by Jedi but the Felpire destroyed the Galactic Alliance, exterminated the Jedi, allied with the Sith, and planned to annex all of their territory.

    This was BEFORE Roan Fel's overthrow.

    It also had the middle management of Morlish Veed and a bunch of other hardcore fascists. You could argue Roan Fel had no choice in this but if all of this horrible evil was done without his choice, was the Empire really redeemed at all? Not to mention that the Empire accepted Darth Krayt as Emperor for the most part. You didn't see the palace being bombed. It's like if Trump was killed by Skeletor, I'd have SERIOUS questions about the fact the US military started obeying Skeletor.

    As a result, I like the fact the Disney Corporation has decided to portray the Galactic Empire as the in-universe equivalent of the Nazis. They're a reactionary atavistic throwback that co-opts ancient Imperial imagery, corrupts it, and is led by a deranged leader who EVERYONE hates. The Empire collapsed because it was overthrown by the entire galaxy and never gained any institutional loyalty from the public as a whole.

    I think the First Order is nicely a good satire, unintentional or not, of the Imperial Remnant because Rae Sloane is every bit the noble leader Pellaeon was (if not more so) only she ends up overthrown like Roan Fel or replaced because the Empire "but better" is a BAD IDEA. Its completely incapable of being used for good.

    Like the One Ring of Sauron.

    However, I will also point out, I don't think the First Order is THAT different from the original Empire. It's member are more dedicated and more brainwashed but they aren't objectively WORSE people.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
    Jeff_Ferguson, Gamiel, FS26 and 5 others like this.
  3. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    First off the moffs aren't fascists-more oligarchic nobles/junta leaders/governors/civil-military elites.

    Also in legends palpatine never cared for these aspects of the empire.

    And Fel didn't want to destroy the Jedi, nor did he want the war-the moffs forced him into it. Thus showing the power of the emperor was not absolute.

    Anyway-this isn't the thread for the moral nature of the empire or apologia or condemnation therof. This thread is intended to be an academic comparison and contrast.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  4. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Well the analogy's pretty bad there because the South isn't the legitimate government, its a rebellious branch, but it works if it's more like if the Confederacy managed to fight the Union to a standstill, and was allowed to continue to exist and then not only ended slavery but accepted African-Americans as equals in a really short span of time, avoiding semi-Apartheid, the KKK and Jim Crow altogether. That's a Confederate victory I could get behind, actually.

    As for the thread's main intent, I think the Empire in Legends had more loyalists, not to the government, but to the overall Imperial culture. Yes, it had self-serving Moffs and scheming Dark Siders. But Zsinj didn't call himself Grand Poobah of the Outer Rim, he was still a Grand Moff of the Galactic Empire. I think the difference is how its treated. In Legends, the Empire, as intended by George Lucas, is simply an extension of the Old Republic that has grown more authoritarian. In NuCanon, it's this own isolated thing that seemingly came out of nowhere. Note Ezra in Rebels saying the Empire 'beat both the Republic and the CIS', which makes no sense considering the Senate legitimately voted for the Empire. To use a Nazi analogy, it's like saying the Third Reich came in and defeated France, Poland AND Weimar Germany.

    How the Empire is difference is also how the Rebellion is. In Legends, the Rebel Alliance's main intention is liberating the Galaxy and doesn't try to present itself as some sort of legitimist remnant of the Old Republic. Yes, it wants to restore the Republic, but it ends up building a wholly new government. In NuCanon, Mon Mothma is practically the first and seemingly only Imperial Warlord.
     
  5. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    That's an interesting analysis-that the common imperial soldiery and personnel are more loyalist while their superiors are self serving and ambitious but still see themselves as part of the empire
     
  6. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Well I see in the same way as the Chinese Warlords. They clearly identified with the Chinese nation, and each wanted to unify it under them. The same way with the Imperial Warlords. They identified as Imperial, otherwise they wouldn't claim descent from their original military ranks, but each had their own vision for the Empire's future and wanted to unify it under them. There's definitely some like Greater Maldrood or the Eriadu Authority that had a more localized nature, and going by their name, likely didn't want to go outside of their borders too much, but the most major warlords like Zsinj, Daala, etc definitely had their own vision of the Empire that they wished to put forward.
     
    SpecForce Trooper and Gamiel like this.
  7. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    That is an interesting analysis-maybe the warlord period could be compared to the warring states period or the three kingdoms era in China?
     
  8. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2016
    Could even be prepared to the WW2 era were you have warlord cliques ruling considerable parts of China, while the Chian Kai-shek and the Koumintang were the "official" chinese state despite being basically a warlord himself, just the most powerfull and recognized by other nations. But they all aspired to unify China under them. Also like the IR the Koumintang managed to unify most of the warlords under them(due to the Japanese threat) but were then driven of by the communists to Taiwan, like the IR was driven into their territory around bastion by the NR.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
    Gamiel likes this.
  9. Hamburger_Time

    Hamburger_Time Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2010
    The parade of Emperor wannabes and their territories with hilariously over-the-top names are one thing I miss from Legends, I won't lie.
     
    Gamiel, Jeff_Ferguson and Xammer like this.
  10. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2016
    Agreed, its such a shame that Daala just killed all of them of, in my opinion they were much more intresting than Pealleon, who is just this straight dour military man.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  11. Xammer

    Xammer Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2009
    This reminds me of the following passage from Aftermath.

    I remember being surprised when first reading the above sentences, as it was suggested that the Empire in the new canon was not simply a "reorganization" of the Republic (as in the text of Declaration of a New Order), but rather a separate and shadow entity formed by Palpatine during or before the Clone Wars on the fringes of the galaxy (sort of like the Hand of Thrawn) that silently took over the Republic after Palpatine delivered his speech. I would love that to be elaborated upon.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
    Jeff_Ferguson likes this.
  12. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    First Avenger, "Germany was the first nation the Nazis invaded."
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  13. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Ezra became a street-rat at the age of eight. Everything he knew about Galactic History probably came from old Holonet articles. I doubt Kanan told him anything additional. Jarrus himself probably never realized that the Emperor was really the Sith Lord behind everything.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  14. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Disney's version of the post-Endor Empire as evil rather than rehabilitated is much more appropriate for today's day and age, when in real life more and more of the Western World seems OK with fascism with Nazi-ish tendencies and holy crap we really need some escapist fiction guys because this is terrifying.
     
    Sinrebirth , Vthuil and BigAl6ft6 like this.
  15. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Even the worst governments are rehabilitated, some because their was a genuine change of belief, and others for strategic or political purposes. With the empire in legends it was a mixture of both.
     
  16. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Actually, I think the post-Endor era in Legends is exactly like WW2 China. An "official" but weak state that claims to lead the nation but in reality can't control large parts of it (the Kuomintang/the Empire "proper"), a revolutionary movement that wants to take over the nation and impose a different kind of government (the Communists/the Rebel Alliance), and then a bunch of bandit-kings in the middle grabbing for whatever they can get a hold of (the warlords/the warlords). Hadn't even thought of the Formosa "remnant" analogy. Wow. The GFFA is China.
     
    SpecForce Trooper, Anedon and Gamiel like this.
  17. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    The world doesn't need a Legendspire right now. I was always a big Pellaeon fan, but the world doesn't need Pellaeon these days --- it needs Hux. It needs a fanatical Imperial leader to remind us that yes, Nazis are bad. Yes, fascism is evil. And I'm not just thinking of the cheetoh and the alt-right either; the far-right is scarily growing in Europe and also look at what's happening in Brazil right now. Disney's Star Wars is firmly positioning those kinds of people as the bad guys and the people who resist as the good guys. And that's a good thing.
     
  18. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Yeah I don't really have an appetite for "fascist lite Empire is actually okay because order and stuff!" right now. Clear lines in the sand are nice. The pining for military dictatorships and stuff can be left with the yesteryears.
     
  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I have made many a joke the First Order is basically not the Imperial Remnant but Star Wars Imperial fanboys on the internet. The guys who genuinely insist over and over the Empire was actually the good guys all along and the Rebels were awful non-ironically.

    Kylo Ren is their Alt-Right God.

    I remember when I used to be all sorts of pro-Empire and then realized some people I talked with believed that sincerely.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
    Gamiel and Voltron64 like this.
  20. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2016
    It'll be very interesting to see what they do with Pellaeon now that he's been canonised and his character is, I guess, a political and ideological relic in these new times.
     
    Voltron64 likes this.
  21. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Pellaeon was only mentioned-I do wonder if they are planning on developing his character beyond re-canonizing him for the sake of fan service.
     
  22. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Probably only if they do more with Thrawn. If Zahn writes a third Thrawn novel, maybe he'd include Pelly as a new right-hand-man, but I doubt if they'd do anything with him post-Endor. Rae Sloane has already filled his shoes.
     
  23. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2016
    I mean, I try to never discount anything they'll do with these characters as a lot of people had basically said much the same with Thrawn and yet he's still around, but with Pellaeon it's a weirder situation.

    The depiction of the Empire being what it is in canon, and Pellaeon's prominence in Legends being what it is...in hindsight that's a fairly big can of worms Dave Filoni and co have opened. Whatever they choose going forward will be quite illustrative of their overall views on the morality within the Imperial camp.
     
  24. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Yes, Kylo and the FO very much look like a deliberate send-up of imperial fanboyism. I can't say they're wrong about that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
    Vthuil, Outsourced, Voltron64 and 2 others like this.
  25. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Well Thrawn is very much outside of the Empire now and its entirely possible he and Pellaeon will avoid that kind of "tainting." Mind you, I'd be very interested in an older Jeremy Irons seventy-something Grand Admiral Thrawn returning to see the First Order ruling everything and how his plans had gone horribly wrong.
     
    Voltron64 likes this.