Lit Imperial Distinctions-the legends and Canon empires

Personally I'm of the opinion that a galactic monarchy is the best governmental option for the GFFA, Caedus and the Fels had the right idea.

A benovelent gardener emperor-who sacrificed everything else for the Galaxy-it's what Jacen could have been and what Roan Fel might have, and what Marasiah could be.

 

Caedus was quite horrible and brutal and very much not benevolent. He launched a massive orbital bombardment on Kashyyk which is incredibly evil. It's been a long time so I can't remember everything he did, but he definitely wasn't anything close to benevolent. Fel was brutal. Maybe it was the Moff's forcing his hand, but he still allied with the Sith and participated in a Jedi Purge and starting a new war with the intent of comitting genocide against the Yuuzhan Vong. He was killed by the Imperial Knights for trying to deploy Alpha Red on Coruscant. He was the emperor, so the Moffs can't be blamed in his place. Fel is guilty of everyone of these atrocities. These weren't good benevolent leaders. Even before the war, the Empire was trying to take territory through the Imperial Mission. It was peaceful, but they were still seeking to spread an authoritarian government. Plus, I'm pretty sure this involved taking territory from their long time ally, who they'd eventually openly betray. I'd say Roan Fel was as bad as Palpatine, but even if he weren't, not as bad as Palpatine doesn't say much at all. The gardener analogy reminds me of Pelleon in Destiny's Way and his conversation with Leia that makes me wonder how he's considered a good Imperial. It involves ideas of culling the weak and survival of the fittest. It's an atrocious and evil ideology.

The anti Republic sentiment doesn't make sense. The Republic presided over 1,000 years of peace in both canons. That was only ruined when the Sith began encouraging corruption and influencing conflicts. The problems we see in the PT are a result of the Sith. When Palpatine rules his Empire we have decades of conflcic, rebellion, oppression, and genocide. The Empire after Palpatine wasn't much better. They just didn't have much power until the Fel dynasty. And then they quickly started doing bad things and participating in injust wars. But Pellaeon shows that the evil ideology never went away. He talks with admiration for survival of the fittest and culling the weak.

 

In terms of Thrawn and what I would like to see basically I want Thrawn to be the Gul Dukat right down to he and Ezra being avatars to good and evil celestial beings....Pellaeon can be his Damar (Hux can be Weyoun)

As for the FO, they are pretty much ISIS and the Alt-Right but with bigger guns and weapons and that’s the intepreation i will always have of them.

 

With regards to Caedus-he had to prevent the Confederation from gaining new worlds-his government's policy was in a single phrase "no tolerance for secession"-it was a horrible act but from a military and political perspective an understandable perhaps even justifiable one if not a moral one.

 

The ends don't justify the means. Peace through any means isn't real peace. It's rule through fear and violence against dissenters. It's an excuse to justify oppression. Caedus' actions caused a massive civilian death toll, it was evil. It went beyond what was militarily necessary, but even if it didn't would be an immoral unjustifiable act. You can't target civilians to win. Caedus was essentially saying he'd destroy planets to stop the Confederation. That's evil. He wasn't trying to be a kind ruler. He wanted to rule through fear. He was a tyrant.

 

Full Disclosure: I'm a die hard Jacen fan so I will happily admit I'm biased and inclined to give Jacen the benefit of the doubt and see things his way or at least sympathetically in his regard.

A few things to remember-the confederation is at war from the galactic alliance, it has perpetrated terrorist acts, it's trying to re-activate Centerpoint station, it's rebelling against lawful authority. Jacen is the co chief of state, the commander of the galactic alliance guard, and is along with Niathal directly responsible for the security of the galactic alliance and its victory in the war. He also despite being in power thanks to a coup does have a political constituency in the core.

Thus legally Jacen is both under more obligations and also I think has more freedom of action given his position as opposed to if he was just a Jedi or private individual or even a lower ranking official.

If Jacen lets Kashyyyk secede without repercussions-it weakens the galactic alliance, strengthens the confederation both in material and resource terms as well as psychologically and strategically.

As the co chief of state, commander of the GAG, and protector of coruscant and the core(as that's where Jacen is most popular politically speaking) he has to act harshly with secessionists.

He isn't acting just a Jedi knight or a Sith Lord even-he has other responsibilities and this means he has to act in a certain way.

So in terms of motivation:

Jacen has to defeat and weaken the confederation
He has to shore up his constituency
He has to protect his government
He has to follow the policy he himself has set out
He can't show weakness-this encourages both the confederation and weakens his position vis a vis Niathal with whom his alliance his tenuous-softness towards the wookiees is something Niathal will use against him.

What he did was terrible-but given both the situation and Jacen's various political roles was necessary.

There are a few other options of course-blockade, ground invasion, retreat.

As I elaborated above-retreat isn't desirable and is disastrous, a blockade requires a substantial devotion of ships and manpower-strategically this hurts the GA and politically doesn't send the message of "we won't tolerate secession, act in insurrection and the galactic alliance will come down hard on you" and a ground invasion may have not been possible but even if it was-that also requires a substantial commitment of troops and ships.

Bombardment is more economical than invading and occupying the planet, and more firm than retreating and more effective strategically and politically than blockade.

Jacen had four options with Kashyyyk.

Blockade
Bombardment
Planetary invasion
Retreat/withdrawal/acquiescence

Given his political and military roles and obligations bombardment was the best option available.

 

1. Jacen didn’t just bombard military targets on Kashyyyk.

2. Jacen could have learned from the mistakes of the Clone Wars and let the systems secede... I believe the New Republic and Old Republic let this happen several times. He could have helped negotiate a new galactic peace, maybe create options for them to still have some status but no longer full members with full benefits or full taxes. If the Confederation tried to attack after peacefully seceding, that’s justifiable to then respond defensively. Jacen is also right to want to at least neutralize Centerpoint. But Jacen wanted the power, and Lumiya was allowed to thwart negotiations.

 

1. Simply targeting military facilities would not be enough-Kashyyk and the wookiees are resourceful-they'll rebuild them because they have the industry and the resources to rebuild their facilities. It's a widespread bombing campaign-he can't pinprick it.
2. "Letting them go" wasn't an option at that point-the war was raging and any possibilities of a peaceful settlement had largely been torpedoed by the timeframe of Inferno.

The confederation had been attacking GA territory, and with the intent of Centerpoint being re-activated it shows the confederation was waging and quite willing to wage offensive war against the alliance.

Also limiting the bombing to strictly military targets would have been perceived as weakness-by Ben who was present with him, by Niathal who would have seen it as softness to his father's old best friend's species, and to his own men-he has a reputation as a hard man willing to do what needs to be done. So politically a more limited or precise bombing campaign wasn't feasible.

 

I'm hoping Marasiah will secure her place in the galaxy by looking to her ancestor and restoring democracy forever.



I should mention I'm a huge Jacen fan as well. I also find Darth Caedus to be his "Clone Saga" period. It's a period which is the worst for Jacen fans as it derails his character beyond recognition.

Its like being a Luke fan and the Last Jed...

*is hit with popcorn*

Okay, okay, no hating!

 

By the time of Jacen's coup, Omas had already screwed up any chance of a peaceful settlement. With 'wonderful' individuals like Thraken Sal-Solo, it's not like the Confederation was any better though.

 

Even with Sal-Solo, Jacen's means we're not justified. That's like saying the Rebellion would be justified in blowing up Coruscant or Kuat because Palpatine is evil, and he was far worse than Sal-Solo. When you resort to such brutal means you make your self as bad ,or worse, than the people you're fighting. Also, by Kashyyk I'm pretty sure Sal-Solo wasn't in command anymore. The Confederacy had people like Han and Leia in charge. I'm not sure if Luke had joined up yet, but he would soon.

 

I think the situation was actually somewhat easy to resolve and de-escalate. It's just Jacen believed fear would keep the local systems in line.

 

This is a somewhat inaccurate statement because most evil governments are DISSOLVED and replaced.

 

Seconded. I learned recently that the idea of an "Orwellian Nightmare State," a society that is both completely unfree and completely stable, with literally everyone being either too afraid to too brainwashed to fight back, is largely mythical. Of modern-day states, only North Korea and Saudi Arabia come close, and it's quite likely both are significantly less stable than the government wants outsiders to think.

Hitler blew his brains out after his mad dreams crashed and burned. Stalin died in abject agony due to everyone who could've saved his life being too afraid of him to check one him. Mao managed to die of old age, but his worst policies were thrown out pretty much the second he was in the ground. Etc. etc. etc.

 

And yet also-the Egyptian Pharoahs, Roman emperors, Japanese shoguns,the French house of bourbon, etc... Reigned for immensely long times.

 

The Romans actually considered themselves the freest people on Earth and one of their most important statements was that they spit on and were disgusted by the despotism of their neighbors. They actually had it on a law that dictators who reigned beyond emergency were to be executed. It's to their shame and deterrent that they became synonmous with tyranny as they were keenly aware that monarchies were the governments of savages and primitives.

And the history when they became Emperors was one of constant disaster and civil turmoil.

 

Yes-my point is that monarchical government's existed for a long time, not without chaos and discontinuity but for a large portion of human civilization for a very long time-Kings and emperors ruled.

The dictatorial states in the 20th century are largely anomalous in the broader sweep of human history

 

Yep. Pretty much history indicates the democratic and free state are better.

 

That's debatable-whether or not democratic systems are truly better. Frankly I find Fukayama's paean to the glories of liberal democracy hubristic, unimaginative and ideologically driven by the context in which he was writing.

As for Jacen-sure maybe in betrayal but peaceful reconciliation wasn't possible in Inferno. That ship had sailed-Jacen did what needed to be done as terrible as it was.

 

I think I explicitly said the dictatorships of the 20th century are anomalous compared to broader human history. That goes for democracies in the 20th and 21st centuries as well.

I never said they were similar in more that the most superficial way of not being democratic(the modern dictatorships and ancient monarchies, et al).

 

So showing mercy to a defeated enemy is weakness? Was Luke soft when he decided to spare Caedus's life after beating him within an inch of his life on the Anakin Solo over Kashyyyk? If Luke had been a hard man that day, Jacen's reign of terror would have ended even sooner.

 

The wookiees weren't defeated. Neither was the confederation.

What happened at Fondor was unjustifiable-as they had surrendered.

@GrandAdmiralJello-it is but I was primarily arguing from a Watsonian standpoint.!