PT Implication of Mace's decision in Palpatine's office

But question.
If a Jedi has friends and one of those friends is suffering, say he/she is starving.
And they come to the Jedi for help, "I have not eaten anything in a week, please help me!"
Should the Jedi give some food to this person?

I would think so but based on what several people here have argued, the Jedi should not do this.
Their argument if a Jedi gives food to one or a few people and not to everyone in the galaxy that is starving, that means the Jedi are playing favorites and they should not do that.
So should the Jedi refuse to help with the logic; "I can't give food to everyone in the galaxy that is starving so I can't help you."

To me, that isn't compassion.
But apparently that is how the Jedi should think according to some.
"Unless a Jedi can help everyone, they should help no one as otherwise it is unfair to the people that don't get help."

Question 2, what about Yoda saving Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC.
Yoda said it himself that if Dooku escapes, then he will rally more systems to is cause and thus the war will spread and many people will die.
So Yoda choose to save two of his friends and thus letting Dooku escape and thus dooming many more to die.
Did Yoda act as a proper Jedi here?
Was this compassion?

Bye
Blackboard Monitor

 

I'm not ignoring the final cut, I just think the full scripted dialogue adds a lot of depth to the film. I wouldn't be as much of fan of ROTS without the script and the novelisation.
The script went through a lot of changes before getting to the version we now have, so I tend to include all of this script in my headcanon. Just a personal choice.
Regarding this specific example; does the line really contradict the final cut? Mace's comment onscreen seems to be implying similar, it just isn't overtly stated without Ki-Adi's line. It is kinda ambiguous, what would "taking control of the Senate" actually entail?
The Jedi look more innocent in the final film, I admit. I think that was likely an intentional move on Lucas's part.
My reading either way is that they would have direct control of the Republic for a period, as necessary as it might have been, it possibly raises questions about their intent.
There are lines that imply this in the film, like Anakin and Palpatine's dialogue at the opera - Palpatine comments "All who gain power are afraid to lose it, even the Jedi". and Anakin sternly replies "The Jedi use their power for good."
This exchange says it all. Anakin's comment is right on the money, but Mace's actions in the Chancellor's office later put forward the question "how much can be done and still be argued as necessary toward the greater good?"
Note Anakin doesn't argue against the fact that the Jedi hold great power, just accurately implies their good intent trumps this.
From what is shown onscreen for the six movies it is definitely backed up that the Jedi don't use this power for bad in the way the Sith do. But at the final moment Anakin turns this is obviously muddied. I think to claim otherwise weakens the film's intent.

During Anakin and Obi-Wan's duel much later there was a cut line during this exchange -
Anakin: I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over...
Obi-Wan: From the Sith! Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!
The final cut sounds more like Obi-Wan just totally doesn't know what Anakin is talking about but with the "(Take over) from the Sith!" line it implies a little more that the Jedi admit they were going to be in control, just that would be a far better scenario than Sith control.

I guess.
That doesn't competely go against my own reasoning however. It seems clear the Jedi in the original conception of the story were getting their hands a little dirtier. To set up Anakin more genuinely having a problem with their philosophy, rather than the final cut turn - a desperate last minute action motivated solely by his feelings for Padme.
It makes Anakin more sympathetic I think, and makes the Jedi less grey. Either way the Jedi are the objective good guys, but it is a little clearer in the version we have.

Seriously? Anakin was put closer to Palpatine than anybody. He knows the Jedi are suspicious of him but barely comprehends why, with the information he has it just makes the Jedi look worse. It doesn't help that Anakin's own politics aren't that far from what Palpatine is ultimately aiming for. When Obi-Wan tells Anakin the Chancellor is getting more emergency powers Anakin has no problem with this as it "...will make it easier for us to end this war." I mean, this is a much more innocent and relatable view than what it turns into, but it sets up that his views could shift in that direction. The Jedi never truly teach Anakin why this is dangerous, just tell him "something is out of place". Granted Obi-Wan doesn't know specifically what it is that is amiss. But I think it leads into the dialogue later, with the cut line here:
"I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you. I could never teach you to think!"

Yeah, my argument was a little thin on that. Really both versions, Imo, are discussions Anakin would have been a good person to let be involved with.
Like I said, he is put closer to Palpatine than anyone (by both Palpatine and the Jedi Council) but isn't equipped with the wisdom to safely be put there.
Whether that is partly on the Jedi is debatable.

Hmm.
Yes, Palpatine definitely planted that paranoid view in Anakin. But the Jedi are shortsighted enough that they don't display to Anakin anything that directly contradicts it.
Just Obi-Wan stating "Be careful of your friend, Palpatine." and later "Use your feelings, something is out of place."
This advice is accurate enough, but it is a little late Imo. Anakin "Knows they don't trust (Palpatine)" but has no grasp on why.
Circumstance means that when Mace tries to kill Palpatine in front of the conflicted chosen one it seemingly confirms Anakin's fears for him.
But yeah, it is still on Palpatine mostly.

Good point.
I guess I'm arguing that giving Anakin specifically the task they gave him was a mistake. It is what Palpatine expected them to do.
It's just my opinion, but the movies to me imply their handling of the chosen one was flawed.

Think about the bigger picture. Anakin's lack of wisdom isn't fully on him.

Technically he was successful briefly, when he reports Palpatine's identity to Mace - "If what you have told me is true, you will have gained my trust."
But Mace just tells Anakin, who has been in fear for an arguable amount of time - therefore influenced by the darkside - to wait in the Council chambers alone with his thoughts while they confront Palpatine. It is a little careless, but I suppose Mace had bigger concerns to think about.

I find the story richer if it isn't all on Anakin and Palpatine.
Palpatine is the most responsible. Then Anakin - his own decisions and actions are what ultimately doom everyone, it is part of the point of the chosen one storyline I think.
But as a tragedy it is meaningful seeing almost everyone in the PT as playing some part. It is a tale about how a galaxy loses it's way and turns from an almost utopian state into an oppressive dictatorship. I don't know a lot about myth, but I have read of the trope where in some tragedies everyone is flawed, no one is truly totally noble.
Plus if you look at the structure of the six films, clearly things are moving in the opposite direction to the OT. The OT characters, even if flawed, ultimately make the right decisions and win the galaxy back. It makes a lot of sense that their PT counterparts are spiritually failing - be it Obi-Wan, Padme, Bail, Yoda or Mace.

 

Bringing up an older part of this thread...

That is after Anakin turns. He has sold his soul, he could care less if the Separatists get a trial now. And he already hated them before the turn, Palpatine has just given him an excuse that the Jedi never would.
What is being argued is that before he is a Sith, Anakin is conflicted about this, and Mace and Palpatine's actions at the crucial moment indicate to him that neither Order is virtuous.
Yes, it is hypocritical I guess, but it is not like Anakin is arguing a Sith wouldn't do this. He just doesn't think the Jedi are enough superior anymore.
To Anakin/Vader it is convenient that he can choose the side that encourages and forgives his own weaknesses and greed.

The novel makes it more explicit that Mace believes Palpatine would go quietly if he attempts another (granted, third lol) arrest attempt, and Lucas's quotes suggest as much.

^^^ This.

Well said.

I don't think there is any other way to take Yoda's teachings in ESB.
The six movies, while arguably just entertainment, I don't think coincidentally seem to have a progressive learning arc watching 1-6. The audience learns what the protagonists do, ROTS is a stronger movie knowing this.

 

That's your prerogative and you are entitled to it. I just think that if we are going to have a discussion, we need to settle on what exactly is the basis of what we are arguing about. I think the movies , first and foremost, should be the basis. They are what Lucas intended.

I'd say the line does contradict the final cut. Where in the movie the intention of the Jedi is merely to keep a peaceful and orderly transition to the next Chancellor, the script makes the Jedi intending to actually be the judge and jury of who gets to be elected as senators.

It's not the job of the Jedi to replace senators, wether they are "filled with greed and corruption" or not. It's the job of the Jedi to expose said greed and corruption, and arrest people if crimes are commited.

But the dialogue doesn't end there. Palpatine then argues that 'good' is a point of view. And Anakin exposes the very difference between the Sith and the Jedi:

"The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inwards, only about themselves."

"The Jedi are selfless. They only care about others."

How so? What are you assuimg the film's intent is?

Except the narrative that the Jedi were plotting to take over is something that Palpatine told Anakin alone. It's not something that the Jedi did, planned to do, or shared with Obi-Wan.

And I think that's intentional. George once said that he wanted to show and expose evil, and the selfishness that feeds it, as pathetic. ROTS is about Anakin giving into that selfishness.

How does it make them look worse? I think Obi-Wan made his case pretty clearly. Anakin let his 'friendship' with Palpatine blind him from what was going on.

Isn't the 'why' obvious enough? They tell him that something is out of place because that's exactly what's going on. And it's up to Anakin to discover the source. Is it Palpatine himself? Someone influencing him?

What they don't display is something that endorses such view.

It doesn't matter wether they trust Palpatine or not. Anakin is assigned to spy on Palpatine to discover the truth. And if he's right, he'll prove the Jedi wrong in not trusting him. The fact is that he has amassed a tremendous amount of power (the latest example of which is him assigning Anakin to the Jedi Council) and has stayed far beyond a normal term.

I'd argue that it's completely on Palpatine.

So you're saying that it's a mistake to trust Anakin, and the Jedi are to blame for not trusting Anakin? You can't make both arguments.

What was the flaw of their handling? Time and time again, the movies show Anakin knowing right from wrong, the proper from the improper, the seflessness over the selfishness, citing Jedi teachings and mantras, and yet we see Anakin freely making the wrong choice. It's not the Jedi that are at fault. It's Anakin who is.

Anakin has wisdom. He merely let his selfish desires blind him from that wisdom.

Careless? More like careful. And once again, it shows Anakin having the chance of doing the right thing but deciding not to.

Well, but that's not really an argument. How are any of those characters failing spiritually? They are the beacons of light amidst the darkness of everything that surrounds them. Just because they weren't successful doesn't mean they are spiritual failures. It's exactly their spirit and ways that the next generation in the OT follows and prevails. Leia with the spirit and ideas of the loyalist politicians and Luke with the spirit and ideas of the Jedi.

 

Exactly, Alexrd. Anakin knows the difference between right and wrong, he just doesn’t care.

 

Lucas cuts all sorts of minor bits of dialogue for no other reason than because he thought it was superfluous. Lucas cuts his films extremely close time-wise and anything he thinks is even slightly unnecessary tends to get the boot. But in general, I think the publicized script more or less reflects his intentions.

In this case, that line could have been cut for reasons of superfluity, or it could have been cut because he preferred the implications of the Jedi's proposed coup to be less explicit. That doesn't mean the implications aren't there. If the Jedi were "to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition," removing senators loyal to the would-be dictator they just deposed seems like a natural next step. It's hard to see how the Jedi could maintain control of the Senate without removing all the corrupt senators who would vehemently oppose their agenda and seek to force them from their position. The alternative would be to simply refuse to allow them to have a vote, which seems little different.

e:

I would say he feels the difference but knows (from his perspective) that these feelings are false angels leading him astray.

The irony is that Palpatine exhorts him to "trust [his] feelings" and "embrace a larger view of the Force," but the reality is that the dark side limits him to feeling and embracing only one small part of it. Palpatine only wants Anakin to trust the feelings that relate to his negative emotions, while ignoring all the other feelings. He wants him to totally subordinate his subconscious to his ego--a disastrous mistake, masked in false language about giving free rein to emotions.

It's the Jedi who (ideally) understand the Force in its full breadth and make a rational choice to restrain their negative emotions in the service of a balanced philosophy. This leads to a greater emotional freedom than the Sith can ever offer as it prevents one's negative emotions from controlling them, as inevitably happens with the Sith.

"You only know half the Force, Darth. You perceive its full power as little as a spoon perceives the taste of food." -- Obi-Wan Kenobi

 

DP

 

Or redundant. Or inappropriate.

Which parts less reflect his intentions? Which parts more reflect his intentions? I believe that sentence by Ki-Adi-Mundi belong to the former. The point is that only Lucas himself can answer. So if we are going for beliefs and assumptions, the discussion only leads to a dead end.

Of course it does. There's no implication whatsoever in the final movie.

It's doesn't seem natural at all. To maintain the peace and order during the interim, as Mace was proposing, was something well within their purview. To do what Ki-Adi-Mundi was suggesting, is not.

Like I said, it's one thing to expose greed and corruption. And they can act on corruption. It's another thing to go over the legitimacy of the senators and the electorate and be the judge and jury of who's allowed to be a senator.

Hence why I believe it's not something a Jedi would say or suggest, and therefore was removed accordingly.

He doesn't know that. There's nothing to corroborate that either. It's only the excuse he tells himself in order to hide or justify his evil and selfish actions.

 

Fair enough. I will try to stick to the films for the sake of argument, although I do think the novel and script make the material welcomely deeper.
The final cut I think is trying to get the point across a lot faster, and subtleties in character motivation are partly lost, or only vaguely implied. But yes, the final film is most important. It is always going to be this way comparing a script or novelisation to a final film, but I would have loved a 3 or 4 hour movie. I think if it had been and the film gave us more time to take things in, the political side of it would be much more prominent. Imo there wasn't time to express the conundrum presented by the Jedi situation and their action without isolating some of the audience, and muddying their ultimate moral superiority.

I would argue that is the point, that the Jedi are overstepping their bounds. The implication is possibly still there with "Take control of the Senate". Why else would Yoda say it could take them to a dark line of thought?
Either way, I think the Jedi actually know what is best for the galaxy admittedly, and perhaps the public of the GFFA was too dumb to see it. I kind of think wtf when the public are so quick to turn on the Jedi after years of being loyally protected by them.
But surely the question being posed by the film is how much liberty can the Jedi take with deciding everything for the public themselves? When does it go from legitimately knowing what is best to bordering on forcing their decision or imposing it?

It is much more interesting to me if the Jedi are a little greyer at the final moments, even if they are still the victims.

I agree, but it wasn't completely relevant to the point I was making.
The implication of the point of view truth that the Orders are "similar in almost every way", while aptly countered by the lines you quoted, is still woven into the six film's structure.
One reason Palpatine's quote is relevant is because both Orders (at the end of each trilogy) were at the peak of their power, yet with all their reach and influence could not see what was right in front of them, and it was their downfall.
The Jedi; not seeing that the Republic they were loyal to was failing, led by the enemy, and arguably didn't deserve them, are betrayed by it and stabbed in the back. They are looking outwards, and miss what is going wrong within.
The Sith; arrogantly don't take the Rebellion threat seriously enough, and aren't able to comprehend the power of compassion and love, which is The Emperor's demise when Anakin is redeemed by Luke and the Empire falls.

Besides that there are a lot of things mirroring the two Orders I won't go into here. But despite all the superficial links, a common inversion is that the Jedi's compassion ultimately trumps the darkside where the Sith's own selfishness and greed does them in. Punctuated by Anakin turning to the darkside when he can't let go, and turning back when he finally does.

Like I hinted above, the lines being blurred makes Anakin's vertigo at the moment he turns more understandable and relatable.
He is the protagonist after all, even we are supposed to disagree with his ultimate choice.
I still think the Jedi made mistakes that you don't want to acknowledge.

I just mean Obi-Wan admits they were trying to take control before the Sith do. And which they are clearly still trying to do after the Sith take control of the galaxy, when Obi-Wan confronts Vader and Yoda confronts Sidious.
With or without the line, it seems Obi-Wan thinks Anakin has gone mad, with his "Well then you are lost!"
Obi-Wan is right, but he can't comprehend Anakin's point of view at all, there is a schism between the Master and former apprentice that has been apparent since AOTC. It made it easier for Palpatine to swoop in, that Obi-Wan just didn't relate to Anakin.

True.
But Lucas wrote it in a way that Anakin's circumstance made him more vulnerable to this temptation to greed.
It isn't all on Anakin.

But Obi-Wan then says "Anakin, the only reason the Council has approved your appointment is because the Chancellor trusts you."
So he is admitting they have only appointed Anakin so he can spy on the Chancellor. Something Palpatine is also doing by making Anakin his representative, but has sugarcoated it so it seems like a genuine promotion. Obi-Wan however states "This assignment is not to be on record". We know it is because the Jedi don't like the Chancellor chipping away at democracy with constitutional amendments, particularly ones that give him authority over the Jedi, but Anakin does not comprehend this. Anakin's views are shifting to a belief that the ends justify the means.
Anakin is loyal to people, namely Palpatine and Obi-Wan, more than the Jedi Council. Both sides/friends seem to be plotting him against the other, and Anakin is blind to which side has the sinister motivation. Anakin even blindly says his friendship with Palpatine "has nothing to do with this", it therefore seems the Jedi are the ones who are capitalising on it, having specifically Obi-Wan ask Anakin to spy.
Obi-Wan does hint at their concerns, but it is too vague. Where Palpatine flat out tells Anakin he senses coming betrayal, which will of course be backed up for Palpatine when he presents the situation as it happens in his office when Anakin turns on Mace. I do know unlike me you don't think Palpatine purposely provoked Mace to attempt to kill him though.

The danger I'm implying that the Jedi arguably don't teach Anakin is why an autonomous government is philosophically undesirable. Anakin can only see that a strong leader should rule, whether it be the Jedi or Sith eventually starts to not matter. Granted we don't see much of his training, but I get the feeling he was taught just to agree with his training and told one day he will have the wisdom to understand why. That is just my reading.
It is backed up by the meadow conversation with Padme in AOTC, "Then (the people) should be made to (agree)." by "Someone wise".
He doesn't understand the point of democracy. Palpatine seems a fit for this "wise leader", then as Anakin/Vader is further corrupted he wants to overthrow Palpatine and rule himself. It stems from his fundamental lack of understanding that people should be allowed to decide things for themselves. Which it appears, at the final moment when Anakin turns, neither Order truly believes.

Fair enough.
It's just supposed to be a point of view truth, as written into the finished six films. Makes it more interesting.
Anakin is still wrong. Palpatine is uncompromisingly corrupt, and is more guilty of the very things he accuses the Jedi of.

You don't think Anakin understanding what is wrong with what Palpatine is doing matters?

Agreed.

Imo none of the three people present when Anakin turns were completely in the right. Mace is most right, Anakin is less right than him, and Palpatine is objectively wrong. But Mace still made a mistake.

Not a mistake to trust Anakin, a mistake to give him that specific assignment. There are places he could be used more effectively. He is too emotionally connected and conflicted, Mace said it himself on two occasions (with "I don't think the boy can handle it" and "There is much fear that clouds your judgement").
The Jedi were just playing Palpatine's game by doing this.
What good came of using Anakin for this mission? It's shortsighted, they should have brought their concerns to the public before it was too late, or segregated themselves from the Republic entirely. A lose-lose situation yes, but they partially let it come to that.

Agree to disagree on that, I think Anakin was not trained to be as wise as he needed to be to see things as they really are.
But I do agree he consciously chose to do wrong by joining Palpatine.

Perhaps.

I don't see the office encounter going the same way if Anakin was there from the start. It would have bought them some time.

Well said.
I would agree that these ideals were present in some PT characters and lived on in the next generation.

But as to characters spiritually failing, that is my interpretation of the PT.

For Obi-Wan, he and Qui-Gon overestimated his ability to train Anakin Imo. Phantom Menace seems to imply Qui-Gon was the ideal mentor for Anakin and Obi-Wan taking on the task was a rushed decision and out of desperation.
Obi-Wan and Anakin are both in "hell" on Mustafar and Obi-Wan does something he wishes he didn't have to by dismembering Anakin and leaving him to die.

Padme goes against her better judgement and marries Anakin. This is subjective, but I see a contradiction to her own ideals in hooking up with Anakin when their philosophies were so different.
Plus she acts on fear for her people in TPM and inadvertently gets Palpatine to position of Chancellor.

Bail's morals are admirable, but I would argue he made a mistake in refusing to consult the Jedi about their concerns about Palpatine. The Jedi are too afraid to consult the nobler of the Senators, the loyalist politicians are too afraid to consult the Jedi. They would have had more leverage over Palpatine together.

Yoda Imo partly changes his philosophy after ROTS, but we have already argued on that. I treat the novelisation and script as canon on that one. He states to Qui-Gon in the script "Your apprentice I gratefully become".
He also is confident he will best Sidious, but fails and goes into exile.

Mace makes a stark decision on his own authority and position to kill Sidious. We have already discussed this at length but Lucas has implied in the ROTS commentary that his belief is that Mace did the wrong thing, which I would argue backs up that the message is no one has the authority to kill an unarmed person who has already surrendered.

 

A couple of things from that post I didn't word well and thought I should clarify...

Missed a word here;

I rushed my last paragraph because I was getting fatigued.

To expand on this;

I think I should make a distinction between Mace's action and what I would see as an action that would be taking a step towards the dark side itself.
Mace is clearly angry in the scene, this comes across in all three versions (novel, script, final cut) quite obviously. Anger being of the dark side, it makes the decision to kill Sidious in the heat of the moment a questionable one. But one poster cited Mace's use of Vaapad during the duel as corrupting his decision. I don't think this was intended on Lucas's part, it is just Mace's fighting style and during the duel Mace seems to be completely rational and objective, even trying to arrest Palpatine again once Palpatine loses his saber.

What I do think was acting on anger is Mace trying to kill Sidious when Anakin and Mace think Palpatine has given up. Lucas seems to imply in the commentary if Mace tried to arrest again Palpatine would go quietly. Albeit only after 3 arrest attempts by Mace and probably just for Anakin's benefit, so Palpatine can try and turn Anakin again later. Yes, Palpatine would be lying, but if Lucas's commentary is anything to go by, this would be a more desirable outcome and not a violation of the Jedi beliefs and code. But to clarify, in ROTS I think the only Jedi truly at risk of going all the way and turning was Anakin.

I am of the opinion that fighting in the war against the Separatists and the Sith brought the force further out of balance, rather than the imbalance being solely a result of the Sith's existence. The Sith's action in starting a war to fuel the GFFA's being's negative emotions like fear and anger, getting the Jedi fighting as soldiers, and bringing general instability to the galaxy (which would make the public want a quick fix for stability) all contribute to the dark side's strength and push the force further out of balance. My reading is that the Jedi dealing with this by fighting only contributes to the imbalance.
What I don't see is the Jedi Order falling victim to it's own dark side impulses, ie the Jedi Order isn't consumed by the dark side.
They are in a fog as the Sith's power grows, and some of their decisions are making the fog thicker, but I don't think this puts them inherently closer to the dark side themselves. Just the state of the force and the galaxy.

If Mace had succeeded to kill Sidious it is hard to say if this would bring balance. According to Lucas the end of the Sith will bring balance, so it would appear so, but if the prophecy states only Anakin can do this it is hard to gauge if it was even possible for Mace to kill Sidious. Mace needed Anakin on board and circumstances dictated this didn't end up happening.

Maybe this argument is circular, but I can't help but see ROTJ's incarnation of a truly compassionate natured Luke as the karmic answer to a less empathetic Mace's attempt on Palpatine decades earlier. There are some convincing arguments earlier in this thread in favour of Mace having no choice but to finish Sidious, but I find it hard to see this as the saga's ultimate intention with all we have. I mean Luke never giving up on his Sith father despite all Vader has done, is clearly the polar opposite to Mace trying to kill a defenseless Palpatine, or Obi-Wan maiming his former brother on Mustafar. It can't be a coincidence that Anakin leaves the Jedi because of these events and returns to them when Luke does different.

In terms of visual symmetry you even have Anakin's immolation when he loses his brother yet his cremation when he regains his son.

 

Like I said before, I do value the movie scripts as complementary material when they don't contradict the final version on screen. The novel though, is another thing entirely. It's Stover's work and interpretation of the original material.

Regarding your last point, you seem to acknowledge the importance (and intent) of the Jedi retaining the moral superiority/high ground. That's exactly my point and the reason for my contention.

They are only overstepping their bounds in the sense that this is not a situation the Republic ever considered. There's no plan for situations like these. But assuming that Palpatine wouldn't end the war and give up his powers, only the Jedi could step in and take control in the interim period, irrespective of what the Jedi planned to do or not. What other alternative is there?

Regarding Yoda's "to a dark place this line of thought will carry us", it is what it is. The situation they are describing (even though it's only conjecture at the time) is dark. It did happen and it was dark.

But that's the thing, their plan doesn't have any imposition whatsoever. They only plan to take control to keep the order until the senate elects a new chancellor.

They are in a 'grey' situation, but they aren't 'grey'.

I argue that they don't miss that the Republic is failing (or that there were failures within it). But it's not their place to be political and take parties. At the end of the day, the people are reponsible for who they elect. The Jedi's place is to keep the peace and enforce justice. Did they fail in that regard? I don't think so. They did everything they could with what they had. Had the events of the movies been a result of their ways, sure, it would be valid to criticize them. But they weren't. They were the ones who were doing the right thing.

But the lines are only blurred to him. I can understand why he fell. You're supposed to understand. But understanding doesn't mean support, or that he had no responsibility.

He was deceived. And fed by his own selfishness, he let himself be deceived as well.

I'm happy to discuss any perceived mistakes by the Jedi.

But they aren't trying to take over anything. And Obi-Wan wasn't even aware of what Mace was planning to do if Palpatine didn't keep his word. It simply doesn't make sense for him to say that.

Fighting the Sith is trying to take over?

You said it yourself, Anakin has gone mad. How is it Obi-Wan's fault that he doesn't understand Anakin's distorted and lunatic argument?

Vulnerable, yes. But he was still presented with the right path. He knew it was the right path. He chose not to follow it.

He provoked Mace to fight him when he resisted arrest, yes. Without threat, there's no fear. And it's the fear of loss (of his knowledge) that makes Anakin act.

The Jedi Order believes.

I think Anakin understands what is wrong with it.

Any of Mace's possible decisions could be viewed as right or as a mistake.

Why? Is he not to be trusted? That assignment could only be given to Anakin.

We know that, because we see Palpatine's machinations. But the decision to spy on Palpatine is not necessarily wrong. It's perfectly valid and logical. Anakin is conflicted, yes. But he's the only Jedi that could spy on him without arising suspicion.

That's hindsight bias. Who else could spy on Palpatine? No one.

That would make an whole other thread.

Anakin was shown to have the wisdom to know right from wrong. That's in the movies. He cites Jedi wisdom many times. He simply chose not to follow it. Palpatine influenced him to follow the easy, more seductive (and unwise) path.

I don't think TPM makes any point about the 'ideal mentor' for Anakin. Or that Obi-Wan was unable to teach an apprentice (be it Anakin or someone else). It does make a point that at the end, Obi-Wan was worthy of being granted the rank of Jedi Knight (and in turn, able to train an apprentice). And that Qui-Gon believed he was wiser than him and that he would make a great Jedi.

I never argued that Yoda wasn't grateful to become his apprentice.

Shouldn't he be confident? Shouldn't he take the chance and try?

That Mace attempts to strike Palpatine out of anger is debatable. I don't see it that way. Anger is not a factor at all.

Vaapad is obviously not a factor at all either. It's an EU invention. A cheap attempt to make Mace 'cooler' and 'edgier'.

Lucas' commentary doesn't imply that Palpatine would go quietly either. Only that Mace is not following the Jedi way by striking a begging Palpatine. But just because doing that is wrong doesn't mean doing the opposite is right (Mace is not wrong in ignoring the control he has or the many chances that he gave Palpatine). An example of that is Lucas' comments regarding Yoda and Qui-Gon on wether Anakin should be trained or not. He says both are wrong and right at the same time. Which is true.

 

I understand your stance, I agree that the script holds far more canonical relevance than the novelisation.
The novel is really good though, it is hard to abandon it for discussion when it makes the Jedi's fall so much more layered.
Out of interest just off the top of my head, are you of the opinion that Yoda goes to Kashyyk to lure the Sith into making their move, or do you read it just as it's presented on the surface; that the Wookies need support and Yoda is friends with them? There is nothing to suggest the former in the final film, but it makes a lot of sense and paints the Jedi as a little craftier, even if it ultimately backfired.

I know. I'm a Jedi fan, I just prefer Qui-Gon Jinn and Luke Skywalker, OT Obi-Wan and OT Yoda to a lot of the PT Jedi.
I find Palpatine and Anakin more interesting than the Jedi in ROTS, but clearly they are objectively wrong. Anakin fails on several levels (even his motivation for turning doesn't work out) and Palpatine is basically an ireedemable black-hole of the force. I just think the film poses a lot of open questions more than expecting you to agree with what the Sith do.
Where Anakin ends up as Vader isn't relatable at all, but I think how he gets there is and should be. I mean his fate as the main enforcer of a totalitarian regime is enough to clearly define that the character you rooted for is lost. There is nothing about his views as Vader post-suit that I can find at all relatable.

Good point. I guess intention-wise I don't have an issue with it, but I think when Mace tries to kill Sidious it possibly indicates that their humbler plans are going out the window. To me.
It just seems out of place, too much like the Jedi are doing something they aren't made to do. I can't see Obi-Wan as he is in ANH even directly guiding a government in this way, I know it is contextually based on the eras we are shown, but he feels more rogue. Afterall he doesn't try to take back the galaxy by force, just passively lets Vader kill him, becomes one with the force, and lets Luke grow into being who he has to be at Luke's own pace. And Luke wins in ROTJ by quitting the fight, he doesn't care if he dies, he is relinquishing control of the entire situation.

You're right, that is partly what I am saying. My reading takes it further, more into (*sigh*) the novelisation's implications, but I get why you don't want to include it, that's fair.

Yes, their discussion does sound reasonable, but they appear a little like politicians in that scene. The war changed their values somewhat Imo.

At the final moment though things change for the worse - "I am going to end this, once and for all!" "He has control of the Senate and the Courts! He's too dangerous to be kept alive!"
It sounds more forceful and, as I said imposing.

Agree to disagree on this I guess.
The situation is grey, but I find the questions posed imply some greyness on the Jedi's part too.

Partially agreed. Indeed you make a good point that they don't get fully involved in politics.
They don't see the extent of the corruption though, my stance is they were clouded and not looking at what they should of been.
They were doing the right thing from the point of view that they had the people's best intentions at heart, but to me their way wasn't enough to counter the threat. I see their decision to lead the clone army a bigger mistake than you do. They could have at the very least survived longer without that move.
Jedi don't have the nature of a soldier. Warriors, yes, but they shouldn't lead armies.

Agreed, well put. And of course he was responsible for it.
Where my stance conflicts is I think his training played a part.
He wasn't a regular Jedi but the Jedi didn't appear to train him any differently.
But yes, that is a sacrifice he had to make. Maybe he wasn't meant to be a Jedi, I don't know.

Lol.
Well I noted later in the post some of the (perceived by me) failures in PT characters.

I'm not sure. I don't mean completely take over, just understandably take the Republic before the Sith did. That is what I take from the scripted exchange.

Taking the Sith out of power, but I guess I'm splitting hairs.
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must."
"At an end your rule is. And not short enough it was."

I was more referring to his entire time under Obi-Wan's tutelage.
Yes Anakin seems insane in the period between pledging to the Sith and ultimately stabilising when he gets in the suit. I chalk that up to his inexperience and instability as he transitions, plus his general confused philosophy and muddled ideals. And the dark side generallly.
But I was referring to his time as a padawan and pre-turn. Anakin and Obi-Wan clearly don't think on the same wavelength.

I don't disagree.

But would you agree the above segment at the very least indicates a mishandling of Anakin by the Jedi Council?
I agree on Mace and Palpatine, and Anakin's main motive.

Yeah, I said "appears" not to.

But I still see the Jedi as grey. Take the Jedi mind-trick. This is basically directly removing a person's free will to further their own cause, for a greater good. We never see a Jedi use it for evil thankfully, and it is cool to watch, but arguably the implication after the PT is that it is a grey method. This was never apparent with just the 1977 original movie.

Obi-Wan: "The Senate is expected to vote more emergency powers to the Chancellor today."
Anakin: "Well, that can only mean less deliberating and more action. Is that bad? It will make it easier to end this war."


Obi-Wan: "Anakin our allegiance is to the Senate, not to it's leader, who has managed to stay in office long after his term has expired."
Anakin: "The Senate demanded that he stay longer."
Obi-Wan: "Yes, but use your feelings Anakin, something is out of place!"
Anakin: "Your asking me to do something against the Jedi Code. Against the Republic. Against a mentor, and a friend. That's what's out of place here."


Anakin: "Sometimes I wonder what's happening to the Jedi Order. I think this war is destroying the principles of the Republic."
Padme: "Have you ever considered we may be on the wrong side?"
Anakin: "What do you mean?"
Padme: "What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we've been fighting to destroy?"
Anakin: I don't believe that... and you're sounding like a Separatist!"
Padme: "This war represents a failure to listen. Now you're closer to the Chancellor than anyone. Please, ask him to stop the fighting and let diplomacy resume!"
Anakin: "Don't ask me to do that. Make a motion in the Senate where that kind of request belongs!"


Padme: "What's happened?"
Anakin: "The Jedi have tried to overthrow the Republic!"
Padme: "I can't believe that!"
Anakin: "I saw Master Windu attempt to assassinate the Chancellor myself."
Padme: "Oh Anakin! What are you going to do?"
Anakin: ..."I will not betray the Republic. My loyalties lie with the Chancellor. And with the Senate. And with you."
Padme: "What about Obi-Wan?"
Anakin: "I don't know. Many Jedi have been killed. We can only hope he has remained loyal to the Chancellor."


Obi-Wan: "Anakin, my allegiance is to the Senate, to democracy!"
Anakin: "If you're not with me, you're my enemy!"


He didn't seem particularly wise about the bigger picture from quite early in the film.
His views make sense as something that could devolve into Darth Vader's.
Trivially, I think it is quite cool that Obi-Wan says "Our allegiance" in the earlier scene but it has become "My allegiance" after Anakin turns.

I guess? I just think he should have taken more time.

But it did raise suspicion, Palpatine knew they were going to do that when he appointed Anakin to the Council.
My belief is they didn't have a clear opportunity for any Jedi to do this, so should have changed strategy.

True.

Debatable, as I believe I demonstrated above.

I agree with most of that.
Qui-Gon believed Obi-Wan as wiser but less in tune with the living force. I would agree Obi-Wan would be a fitting mentor for a regular padawan, but Imo not Anakin.
I say Qui-Gon seemed more a fit for the chosen one because of his onscreen interactions with Anakin. He seemed to give Anakin stronger advice, that on occasion we even see Anakin apply.
Obi-Wan's mentoring in AOTC seems to fall on deaf ears sometimes.
Take Qui-Gon's empathy with Anakin's mother, his advice to Anakin before the podrace, and his speech to Anakin on symbiosis.
The way the PT is written this seems to be more what a special case like Anakin would thrive on.

I know, I just think Yoda's views shift, but I give up on that argument.

You didn't respond to the other perceived character failures?
Would you agree Padme and Jar Jar (for sake of argument) are supposed to represent the failures of the PT generation by getting Palpatine to Chancellor position and giving him emergency powers?
And the result of Obi-Wan and Anakin on Mustafar is anything but a black and white scenario? A spiritual failure on both their parts.

Yes, of course. But he ultimately failed.

I don't really care for the Vaapad idea either.
To me Mace's anger was a present factor, but I know I'm not going to change your mind on that.

What would Lucas be suggesting by "Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him" if Palpatine wouldn't go quietly that time? That Palpatine would attack again and Mace would then go for the kill would make Lucas's comment seem redundant.

Mace warned Palpatine, true. It is really just a hypothetical for sake of debate. I don't know what could have happened considering according to Jedi belief only Anakin could do what Mace tried to.

I like that quote. It is a fair comparison, both questions are fairly paradoxical.

 

Doh! That should be "My allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy!"
The correct line is much better

Just to clarify, I agree that Qui-Gon was both right and wrong to get Anakin trained, as I do think Mace was both right and wrong in Palpatine's office.

It sums it up, really.

 

I have the novel. I do regret buying it though.

The latter.

I don't think that's what we are supposed to take out of the movie. Luke didn't quit the fight to win. He quit because he'd rather die with integrity than live having fallen to the dark side. That's the choice that was presented to him. Quite the difference.

Debating/discussing is not something exclusive to politicians.

I see it as assertive.

Nobody sees the extent of the corruption. Even we, the audience, are only aware that it is extensive because we are made aware of it by the bad guys.

I said the right thing, but I wasn't referring to 'good intentions'. Many evil things are made with good intentions.

Again, hindsight bias. If everyone knew the true purpose of the clone army, nobody would use it.

The Jedi aren't soldiers. But they are capable fighters, knowledgable, and can help turn the tide and save many lives. It makes sense that the Republic would make them generals and commanders of the army. If I was a Republic citizen, I would gladly take the help and contribution of the Jedi to help save lives and end the war sooner.

The Jedi way is what it is. It's not the Jedi that should change. It's Anakin. At the end of the day, the problems that he had, had nothing to do with the Jedi teachings or how he was taught. But with his own (lack of) will to act selflessly and staying true to what he signed up for.

If that's the case, he could leave.

No. What would be the correct 'handling'?

If the PT makes it a grey method, are you saying that the PT Jedi are more 'holy/good' than you originally perceived them to be?

He's being pragmatic. But Obi-Wan does appeal to his senses, so it implies that he is more sensible and wise than one might think by hearing what he says.

I don't think he had that privilege.

What would be a more appropriate strategy?

So what? He was a teenager. Some of Qui-Gon's advice to Obi-Wan also fell in deaf hears. Same with some of Obi-Wan's advice to Qui-Gon. That was intentional on Lucas part, almost like a joke. Obi-Wan was stuck with the rebel master and now he was stuck with the rebel padawan.

That doesn't mean a rebel padawan should get a rebel master. That's indulging rebellion. Not that I think Qui-Gon was that maverick of a Jedi, only by comparison. He was quite stern in various occasions, and Anakin would have it no different than what he got with Obi-Wan.

I'm also quite critical of the (sadly) very common notion that Anakin should have special rules or that Qui-Gon would pander to him. He wouldn't. And it's Anakin who is to become a Jedi and follow the Jedi ways. Not the Jedi ways and teachings that should change.

If it were another Jedi would we see less empathy? I don't think so. The difference would be that some might not take him for training.

No. They are not responsible (it's actually the senate who voted for both the Chancellor and the emergency powers) for the deceit that Palpatine is responsible for.

What was Obi-Wan's failure on Mustafar?

I know. It was a possibility. But by not trying at all, his failure would be a certainty.

That's true for those that believed Anakin was the Chosen One. I don't think, by the time of ROTS, Mace believed in him (or that he was the one).

Regarding Lucas' comment, he was specifically talking about the point where Mace says "You are under arrest, my lord." Then Palpatine blasts him with lightning, which makes Mace change his mind. So his change of mind is logical and Lucas doesn't present the solution for that conundrum (probably because it's meant to be one).

Then we are in agreement.

As Mace would say: "It's settled then."

 

@Alexrd — To be fair, though, Anakin was 9 when Qui-Gon basically thrusted him into the life of a Jedi. He had no idea what he was getting himself into. Not that it excuses his actions, but as a kid he likely thought the Jedi were basically vigilantes dispensing justice with a lightsaber.

His thought process might have been
Step #1- Be a Jedi
Step #2- Learn how to use a lightsaber
Step #3- Lead a one-man war against Tatooine and free the slaves
Step #4- ???
Step #5- Profit!!

 

We don't know what he thought the Jedi were or weren't. What I know is that he had a basic idea of what they were about and, once accepted in, he eventually did learn what being a Jedi is. And he stayed with them for +10 years. He didn't leave. He wasn't duped or misled. He was greedy and afraid (later on, at least).

 

I will give replying to this a shot, apologies for waiting so long.

That's a little disappointing to me tbh. The novelisation, regarding the end of the republic and Anakin's fall, Imo really does them justice.
And I think it vaguely represents Lucas's actual intentions, it's based on his script and Lucas read the whole thing and edited out what he didn't like, plus apparently explained in some detail to Stover his own intended meanings regarding the finished film.
It's been a while since I read it through though. I think the detail in the book, like any movie novelisation I guess, really does the film a service. There are parts I didn't love, like Anakin seeming a little darker earlier on - the film makes him a little more innocent at the start to make his fall more of a shock I think, but his motive for turning makes deeper sense in the novel. Being honest, the Jedi come across a little smarter as well, but I can see the benefit of the final film version that arguably makes them seem more like innocents who were slimily betrayed by Palpatine and the Republic they loyally served. Either way this does still come across of course.

Has Lucas ever commented either way? Because the former explanation seems so much cooler
My reading is it is both; the Wookies needed their support and Yoda/the clones could really bolster their defensive power, but it seems implied even in the final film scene, as it is Anakin's first "meeting" on the Jedi Council as Palpatine's rep, they are saying something they don't mind Anakin or Palpatine knowing. The scene just seems more surreal with this additional interpretation in mind.
For those who didn't read it - in the novel there is another scene (without Anakin) where the Jedi discuss sending Yoda off-world to make the Jedi look vulnerable and hence coax the Sith into making a move and giving themselves away. It of course backfires when Yoda isn't at the Temple during Order 66.
It just seems the Jedi are a little more proactive this way, not just laying down and letting the Sith walk all over them.

Just to add to this, the way I see it Mace was thinking clearly and impartially until the final moment when he changes his mind to trying to kill Sidious. I don't think he really cared about the possible consequences of this anymore, unlike when the Jedi were strategising/planning on this subject earlier. I think that is the conundrum presented regarding his decision, regardless of the Jedi's noble intentions as a whole - is Mace really thinking perfectly as a Jedi and looking at the macro effect of doing this at the final moment. I don't think all the dialogue and plot setting this up should just be ignored and Mace seen as objectively right. It seems like a waste of context that I don't think Lucas was aiming for.

It still seems the inverse of Mace's decision to me.
Yes, Mace wasn't turning to the dark side by doing this (but I don't see it as a light side act).
The OT presents Yoda's teaching to Luke to never use the force for attack, a lesson he fails to apply in the Dagobah cave, and only truly understands at the climax of ROTJ when he stops fighting Vader all together. He is then truly a Jedi. I agree with your statement on the intent of Luke's choice, but the OT is obviously trying to paint the Jedi as needing to ultimately be pacifists, the religious connotations and parallels seem too likely here. Luke could never have won by fighting.

Touche.
But I see the scene reflecting the war and the growing strength of the dark side is putting pressure on them to make more questionable decisions.
It is your prerogative to not read it this way however.

I guess I'm not going to change your mind.
But "End this" to me is too assertive. Particularly when according to the Jedi prophecy (and Lucas) it isn't Mace's destiny to do this.
And "once and for all" is kind of "one-size-fits-all" logic. As righteous as the Jedi generally may be.

True, but for example the Jedi see the corrupt Senate does nothing to help Naboo because of the false claims by Trade Federation Senators that there is no Naboo invasion (also it seems ironic that there are TF members of the Senate at all), and the Jedi are basically resigned to be complacent and not segregate themselves from this system.
I don't understand how anyone can argue that the Jedi weren't misguided to fight as Generals in a fake war - they were essentially fighting themselves, and this can arguably tie into the OT Jedi's teachings that the greatest enemy of a Jedi lies within - the individual's and the Republic's own dark side. The Separatists came from the Republic - they were the Republic. The Sith lead both sides, and the Republic are both literally and allegorically fighting themselves.

Hmm, well yes not just good intentions.
But their actions allowed the evil actions of others. They weren't evil actions but I argue they weren't the right actions either.
It isn't your opinion I know, so we should probably just leave it on that.

It isn't discussed onscreen, but other posters here have described eloquently the possible moral implications of using clones at all, in the first place.
Even when the plot thread begins, on Kamino, it just seems a little "off".
When the ultimate result is the Clones shooting their Jedi friends in the back it is pretty hard to argue the Jedi made a just move in leading the armies, hindsight bias or not.

Fair point.

Agree to disagree, I think Obi-Wan himself admits he tried to teach Anakin "what" but failed to impart the wisdom in Anakin to know "why".
Also, Anakin is the chosen one and had a different upbringing to other Jedi but is just put in the standard program like it didn't matter. To me if he was that important to them they should have done things a little differently.
But yes, Anakin consciously abandons his teachings and principles when he turns, I don't disagree on that.

Anakin is proud. I think he didn't want to leave and not have the power/position to make the universe right.
It's ego maybe, but understandable with his upbringing, that he would feel like he had to fix everything himself, not understanding he couldn't achieve this with everything.

At the very least not giving Anakin a "secret mission" to spy on his friend and leader of the Republic.
They needed to either operate autonomously from the Republic, or if not, bring their concerns to the Senate directly, instead of doing things secretly in a way the general public couldn't comprehend.

Lol.
Maybe.
But I think the society/environment of the OT warrants it's need a little more, FWIW.

That's all you can see in those excerpts, pragmatism?
We have radically different views I guess, I think the scenes set up that Anakin's views are aligned in a way that could dovetail into belief in a dictatorship.

"Patience."

I know things had to happen as they did for the story to unfold, but I stand by the notion that asking Anakin to spy on Palpatine and leaving it off-record was pretty foolish.
I did say I like the Jedi not just keeling over and giving up, it makes them more defiant, but if Palpatine expected them to take exactly this action how can it have been the right move?

Too true.

Fair point.
It isn't just the more rebellious nature of Qui-Gon I am hinting at though, he was more open-minded, creative, free-thinking. Obi-Wan was raised from birth in the Temple, and had only just been knighted when he begins Anakin's training. He knew nothing else. Qui-Gon had more experience on the field to be able to deal with a special case like Anakin.

That is your opinion, and it is fair.
I feel Anakin's training would be different.
I have argued this before, and it is purely speculative really, but I see the fact that Qui-Gon and Palpatine give contrasting lessons to Anakin involving midichlorians, yet Obi-Wan never mentions them to Anakin onscreen could be significant. The fatherly advice of Qui-Gon/Palpatine versus the brotherly role of Obi-Wan.
Qui-Gon teaches Anakin that midichlorians are symbiotic with all life for mutual benefit... Palpatine teaches Anakin the midichlorians can be selfishly manipulated to control life.
Inverse lessons, yet both with relation to possible origins of Anakin's creation.

Again, to me, their methods do change partially.
I do agree it isn't about pandering to Anakin, Qui-Gon indeed sternly warns Anakin of the potential sacrifice.

Perhaps.
But the other Jedi seem a little more by-the-books.
I am just a fan of Qui-Gon admittedly.

Lucas said he wanted to show how a democracy becomes a dictatorship. That it isn't taken by the leader, it is handed to them.
Yes, this does more directly apply to the Senate.
But look at Palpatine whispering in Amidala's ear in the TPM Senate scene. It obviously symbolises the devil taking advantage of her arguable weakness - her feelings for her people - and gaining power because of it. It parallels that he will do the same with her husband in ROTS, although Vader helps far more directly than Padme had.
And Jar Jar thinks he is helping by proposing Emergency Powers in Padme's place, yet his good intentions bring about an evil result. Plus Padme wouldn't have proposed this if she had been there - she is the leader of the opposition to an army - so the move is also quite foolish in that regard.

He failed to train Anakin successfully by his own admission. And he maimed Anakin and watched him burn.
It is on Anakin for jumping - the Sith always bring about their own demise, this is of course recurring - but the grey intentions of the scene are blatantly obvious.
Obi-Wan is heartbroken but ultimately doesn't regret stopping his former brother. It is supposed to reflect a moral quandary.
EDIT - And notice when Obi-Wan (Jedi) abandons Anakin on the lavabank and Sidious comes and picks Vader up it coincides with the galaxy's doom. Inversely Vader leaves Sidious in ROTJ and rejoins Luke (Jedi) who refused to abandon him, signifying the Republic's return.

True.
I don't disagree with him fighting Sidious there. The Emperor had just wiped out basically his entire order, and made himself galactic ruler, he forced Yoda's hand.
But I think Yoda overestimated his ability to do this at that time. A little arrogant Imo.
And the fact he goes into exile on Dagobah isn't just to get us to ESB. It is symbolic of failure.

I find that flawed, that Mace appointed himself able and willing to do this.

I guess.

To a point. I have always thought it wasn't wrong or right.
But given the circumstances killing Palpatine then and there wasn't the best way of dealing with the conundrum.
Again, I don't think he was completely wrong, one way or another Palpatine needed to be stopped.
I just think the movies strongly imply it is not a Jedi's place to end lives generally.

 

I don't think he ever commented on it, but the plot required for Yoda to be away (having both Mace and Yoda on Coruscant when Palpatine reveals himself wouldn't work). If Yoda was aware that something could happen soon, it makes him pretty dumb to decide to leave the planet.

It mirrors, but like I said, it's not the same conundrum. There's a case to be made (even though it might be questionable in Jedi principle) with Mace's decision to end Sidious, while there's none with Luke's decision to end Vader. In ROTJ, Vader was defeated. In ROTS, Sidious was not. In ROTJ, ending Vader doesn't end Sidious. Ending Vader makes Luke the next Vader, Sidious' servant. In ROTS, ending Sidious doesn't make Mace the next Sidious.

I disagree. The Jedi might be pacificists in the sense that they strive to keep the peace, but they don't refuse to fight when needed. And there's a difference between not using the Force for attack (which the Jedi never do, both in the PT and the OT) and never attacking period.

Luke is truly a Jedi in ROTJ not for refusing to fight, but for refusing to strike a disarmed man. For refusing to give into his anger. For choosing certain death over falling to the dark side. That's what makes Luke a Jedi. Not for not fighting. A Jedi does fight, can fight and is trained to fight (defensively and offensively).

Because of this.

A common misconception that the Jedi are using the clones. It's the Republic that's using the clones. The Jedi's only relation with the clones is that they are their military superiors.

And greedy. And that's on him.

How is that 'mishandling'? Seeking the truth and the source of the problem is bad? Shouldn't Anakin, as a Jedi, be interested in that? That the subject happens to be his best friend shouldn't be relevant. And like I said, he could ended up helping his friend if he was innocent. But it all comes down to Anakin not behaving like a Jedi, not following the Jedi way, seeking selfish friendship over selfless truth, and somehow that's the Jedi's fault.

I think the general public doesn't comprehend the concept of espionage.

Because righteous acts doesn't rely on possible evil deeds from someone else.

If someone wants to steal an ambulance, said person makes a 911 call, gives them a remote address, they arrive, the person threatens them and steals it.

Would you make the same question? If that bad person expects the emergency services to act this way, how can sending ambulances be a right move?

Qui-Gon was raised in the Temple too. And Obi-Wan has more than 10 years of field experience at Qui-Gon's side. Qui-Gon and the Council found him worthy of being a Jedi Knight. That comes with the ability and trust to train a Padawan.

It would be different. No two Jedi are the same.

So am I.

An admission made out of emotional disappointment and betrayal. An admission that we, the audience, know to be a lie. We know why Anakin fell. It had nothing to do with Obi-Wan and his training.

Not symbolic. But a direct result of.

 

The thinking that it would not matter that this is a very good friend and one that Anakin trusts is exactly the problem. Because the idea is that friendship and trust can be turned off with a switch.
People don't work like that.

Take Dooku, Mace defends him when Padme accuses him of trying to murder her.
I think it very likely that since Dooku used to be a Jedi, then the other Jedi assume that he would not do certain things.
They are letting their past connection to Dooku cloud their judgement of what he is currently doing or what he is capable of.

That the Jedi can't see that this is a possible conflict makes them pretty dim.
And that they are unable to read Anakin as a person.

What they could have done is instead say that they suspect that someone in the chancellors office is a mole, involved with the sith/seps and thus they want Anakin to keep his eyes and ears open for anything suspicious. But they would also tell him to not tell Palpatine yet because they don't have enough proof for an accusation and if Anakin tells Palpatine and the mole finds out, their work will be made more difficult.
This Anakin would have much less trouble with as he could see this as helping his friend.

So when you become a Jedi knight you also become a Jedi Master?
No additional training or experience is needed?

Like a person graduating High School is now totally ready to go back and teach high school students?
I am aware that this happens from time to time but it is far from ideal.

Obi-Wan has never trained a student before and now he is handed the most important Jedi alive and one that has a totally different background and one that the council is very worried about.

It would not take much intelligence to realize that assigning a more experienced teacher to Anakin would be very helpful.
But the Jedi need to be stupid so they are.

Anakin is the ONLY Jedi alive that had an attachment to his mother, none of the others had that.
He is also way older than any Jedi alive when he started his training.

Obi-Wan says it both in RotS and then in RotJ, so he lies both times?

Also, speak for yourself, you think it is a lie, let the rest of the audience make up their own mind.
I say plenty in the PT to see why Obi-Wan said what he said, that his feeling of failure did have a legit reason.
First, Anakin is very different in AotC and to me, much darker, ruder, more arrogant and more filled with anger and fear.
In TPM he was calmer, more at ease, more kind and caring.
So ten years of Jedi training and he is now a worse person than before.

Second, the Jedi knew that he worried about his mother but saw no need to do anything about it except to tell him to not worry anymore. That Anakin didn't manage this either they didn't notice or didn't care about.

Third, Obi-Wan seemed to know about Anakin and Padme but did nothing about it. It was against their code but he let it slide.

Anakin is responsible for his own actions and his fall is on him but I very much believe that outside factors had an impact as well.
Like Palpatine obviously and the Jedi can not avoid some measure of responsibility as well.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Jedi do work like that. Agents do work like that. The problem is that Anakin is a Jedi and is unable to get past his attachment for Palpatine in order to do his job and discover the truth. The problem is that Anakin is letting his emotions blind him from reason. The problem is not that the Jedi asked him to spy on Palpatine.

As I've said before, whatever Anakin might discover could help his friend. Even from his position, he should be interested in doing his job.

Padmé made a baseless accusation. Had she provided some evidence to back it up, the Jedi would investigate Dooku anyway, irrespective of their views of him.

Let's blame the Jedi for trusting Anakin...

Why would they say that? Anakin is not to spy based on specific assumptions. He's there to spy with a clear mind, free of assumptions.

Again, why would they say that? If Anakin is to spy on Palpatine, it goes without saying that he shouldn't tell Palpatine he's spying on him.

No. Who said that?

And yet Obi-Wan succeded in training him to Knighthood.

How exactly were they stupid? Obi-Wan did his part. Anakin's fall had nothing to do with his Jedi training.

Again, so what? The Jedi teaching regarding that remains the same. That wouldn't change wether Qui-Gon or Yoda was training him.

Yes. He genuinely feels that he failed, but we, the audience, know that it's a lie. Anakin's fall had nothing to do with Obi-Wan's teachings.

What?! It is a lie. We saw why Anakin fell. We saw how Anakin fell. And it objectively had nothing to do with his Jedi training or the Jedi way. He fell because he didn't follow his training. He fell because he was deceived, because he chose to feed and act on his fears.

Everyone knows why Obi-Wan said what he said. That's not the point. Is wether what he said is actually true or not. Obi-Wan feels responsible for Anakin and therefore responsible for what he ended up doing. But we saw that what he ended up doing was his own fault, not Obi-Wan's (or his Jedi teachings).

Anakin is a teenager. He's not a teenager in TPM. Despite his Jedi training, Anakin has been under the influence of Palpatine. He hadn't been in TPM.

The Jedi expected him to follow the Jedi way. In the end, he chose not to.

He seems to know about Anakin's feelings for Padmé, but that's all (feelings that Anakin knew from the get go that he shouldn't act upon). He obviously doesn't know about any marriage.

Which part are they responsible for? They are responsible for providing him with the good path. A path that Anakin chose not to follow. That's not on the Jedi.

 

In our world, agents or investigators or police would most often be aware when there is a potential for conflicts of interests. Thus a policeman would likely not be assigned to investigate the murder of his wife or the possibility that his best friend is a thief or things like that.

The Jedi have emotions.
Take Obi-wan and Dex.
Dex tells him about Kamino and yet he goes to the jedi archives and finds that there is no Kamino.
So "facts" tell him one thing, his friend another.
Obi-Wan trusts Dex, he has faith in him and so he does not let it go, he digs deeper.
So he takes the word of his friend over the facts as found in the Jedi archives.

Help in what way? The council pretty much say flat out that they don't trust Palpatine, that he is up to something and ask Anakin to report to them if Palpatine does anything out of the ordinary.
There is no way for Anakin to "help" his friend.
The Jedi want proof of Palpatine trying to seize power and want Anakin to spy on him.
His personal feelings be damned.

It backfired, no surprise there.

First Dooku is leading a separatists movement that is causing trouble and is the Jedi are overworked trying to keep the peace.
The Jedi are keepers of the peace, Dooku is upsetting it.
Second, Maces defense is simply falling back on "Dooku used to be a Jedi so he is incapable of doing this."
Knee-jerk reaction.

I blame them for not realizing how close he was to Palpatine and that he valued loyalty and friendship and would not throw away such things on a whim.
And I blame them for being terrible to read people, esp someone as open as Anakin.
And being pretty bad at handling people. Putting Anakin on the council and yet denying him a rank and telling him this when he is being inducted, that is poor people skills.

Except he is, Obi-Wan tells him that the council does not trust Palpatine and that he has stayed in power longer than he should and that he is not upholding the principles of the republic.
And they want Anakin to spy on him so they can find out what he is up to.

So the council has made up their mind, Palpatine is doing something wrong and they need to find out what.

So if Anakin comes back with nothing out of the ordinary, that won't really help. The council will just tell him to keep looking. And if he finds proof of wrongdoing, then the jedi will use that to bring down his friend.

You when you said that becoming a Knight is enough to become master to another jedi pupil.

Not really considering how much of Jedi behavior and mindset Anakin has not managed to learn.

But it does, to be a jedi requires to let go of attachments, Anakin very clearly has not done that.
In AotC he is still attached to his mother, he worried about her, he has nightmares about her and this is causing him not to sleep well anymore.
So clearly what the jedi told him to do in TPM he has not yet done and it has been ten years.

So either the Jedi are unaware that he isn't learning their lessons, which makes them bad teachers.
Or they are aware and don't care, which also does them no favors.

I think it would, first Yoda and Qui-Gon have more experience teaching lessons and would thus know how to best to make a student learn. Obi-wan would at best only be able to do like how Qui-Gon did it with him.
But he would not know if Qui-Gon choose that approach because of what he knew of Obi-Wan.
Teaching is what I do and after many years or experience I know that I am better at my job now than how I was when I first started.
Of all Jedi, Anakin needed a steady and experienced hand, he got a total newbie.
Second, I think that Qui-Gon would have made further attempts to free Shmi, he would not have ignored it. He tried because it was the right thing to do, that he cared about Shmi and that it would help Anakin.

Again speak for yourself, you are not the whole audience.
Anakin's fall had a lot to do with not being able to learn several key lessons.
The blame is either in the teacher or the student or both. I think that there is blame to go around.
And his fall had very much to do with what happened to his mother and that he spent ten years worrying about her.
The Jedi certainly could have done some things about that.
Like freeing her and telling Anakin so that he can rest easy knowing that his mother is no longer a slave on a world run by criminals.

No it did very much.
He was attached to his mother, he worried about her and he missed her and feared loosing her.
And after ten years of Jedi training, those feelings were still there.
Either the Jedi were not aware of this, which puts doubt in their teachings or they were aware but didn't care, which is also troubling.
Then his mother was killed in horrible circumstances, which made all this many times worse.

Anakin has not managed to let go, this is a very key thing for the PT Jedi and again, either the jedi don't realize it or they don't care.
Given how Anakin wears his emotions on his sleeves, I have a hard time seeing how they did not know.

Why Anakin did what he did is because he had not been able to learn the Jedi lessons.
Either because he could not learn them or that Obi-Wan did not teach them very well.
Or a bit of both.

Anakin is nearly 20, and after a decade of Jedi training, I would expect him to have better control over his emotions than some random 14 year old.

Anakin lives with Padme, he goes to her after the battle over Coruscant and sleeps there.
Did Obi-wan not know this?
How?
And if he did, then how could he not know that more was happening there.
And later he says to Padme, "Anakin is the father, isn't he?"
So I think he knew a lot and didn't say anything.

[/QUOTE]

They took him from his home when he was nine, far too young to make any kind of adult choice to become a Jedi.
Yes he could leave but to what, life on Tatooine as little more than a slave?
He has no money, no life outside the order.
Plus I think part of him wanting to become a Jedi is so he could come back and free his mother.
Leaving early would be him abandoning that.

The Jedi take him in, they are responsible for him now.
They are the teachers and it is their job to see if he is learning or not.
If he is not, if he is not following the code and not doing what a Jedi is supposed to do. Then either make sure he does learn or kick him out.
But since he is their chosen one, the Jedi won't do that.
They instead blindly assume that he will fix everything and balance the Force and all will be well.
But it wasn't and he didn't.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Anakin should've been privy for 2 reasons:
1. He knows Dooku told Obi-wan about Darth Sidious influencing hundreds of senators within the Republic.
2. He heard commander Fives say that there is a massive murder plot against the Jedi order and Palpatine is at the center of it. Fives even mentioned that the "putting microchips in each clone trooper's heads" aspect is part of the plot.
It doesn't take the force or movie knowledge for anyone to figure out that Darth Sidious and Palpatine are either working together or they're the same person (the latter being 100% likely) and that person staged the entire clone wars as a way to get rid of the Jedi and the Republic. Also, the fact that Anakin sees him laughing and cheerfully ordering Dooku's death should've raised all sets of alarms. Most kidnapped victims are usually silent or too scared to talk when they're being rescued but Palpatine is being uncharacteristically hyper and excited like he had never been kidnapped at all. On top of that, Anakin heard Obi-wan say that "he sensed a trap" so after everything he's learned, Anakin should've had the same concerns about Palpatine that the Jedi council has and him revealing himself as Darth Sidious should've destroyed all the trust and loyalty that Anakin has with him.

The moment that Palpatine revealed himself as Darth Sidious should've told Anakin that everything about him is a lie. His image, sincerity, and intentions were all bogus just so he could gain power for himself and that he faked his own kidnapping to trick Anakin into killing Dooku so he could become Palpatine's new Sith apprentice. This revelation should've also told Anakin that this is the same man who tried to get Padme killed for years and is working with the Separatists (who were trying to kill her) so Anakin would know at that point that PalpSidious has no intention of helping him save Padme.

Lastly, the way Anakin screamed out, "What have I done?" after PalpSidious killed Mace, he knew that PalpSidious was faking the "helpless victim" act again just as he did with Dooku which is another moment that should've destroyed Anakin's faith in him and should have no reason to believe that he could help him save Padme. Palpatine has been lying to Anakin since he was a little boy and both Dooku's and Mace's deaths all demonstrate that PalpSidious will never be trustworthy.

As for the Jedi being traitors, a technicality means nothing next to actuality. Their attempt to secure a peaceful transition pales in comparison to Palpatine conspiring with Dooku to: a) create a separatist movement, b) assembling both clone and droid armies, and c) have their respective parties declare war on each other. Palpatine is the one breaking hundreds of republic laws doing what he did so by all counts, the Jedi have every right to arrest him. Thanks to Anakin betraying them, PalpSidious did one hell of a job in spinning the situation that makes the Jedi out to be terrorists.

 

He would if he was the only person who could do the job without arising suspicion.

Yes, Jedi have emotions. Nobody argued otherwise.

And facts tell him that something does exist in the coordinates his friend provided (a gravitational pull, shown in the archives), even if the archives say nothing about a Kamino system or something in that location. So his actions are based on facts and reason, not emotions. Resorting to his friend for information is also not something done out of emotion, but reason.

Actually they pretty much say nothing about their trust (or lack thereof) on Palpatine. All they say is that he's to report on all his dealings.

There is a way for Anakin to help his friend, assuming that his friend is innocent. To report back whatever he finds, discover the source of the problem(s) and if the Chancellor is under the influence of someone else.

And yes, whatever the case, his personal feelings be damned. They shouldn't be relevant at all.

It backfired because Anakin chose the wrong, selfish path.

Dooku is not upsetting the peace. He has organized a movement to leave the Republic. That the decision to stay or leave the Republic causes internal unrest among the people is expected. That uncertainty leads some people to do things they otherwise wouldn't is also expected. But that's on the people.

Reaction based on what he knows and is known, as opposed to what isn't.

Loyalty to what and to whom? Not to the Republic and the Jedi. He's loyal to Palpatine, who has pandered and shaped him in a particular way since the beginning.

He did throw away such things. Did he say anything when Palpatine asked him to openly spy the Jedi for him? Did he say anything when Palpatine meddled in Jedi affairs when he shouldn't? No. He took it. He was selfish and acted selfishly.

Open to whom? Palpatine and the audience. Not the Jedi, whom he was actively not open with.

That's why they have been successfully working as ambassadors and kept the peace for thousands of years. They had "poor people skills"...

Or who is using him and for what purpose. They want Anakin to discover the truth, not to assume that Palpatine is a criminal or evil.

Jed Knights are not Jedi Masters. Jedi Knights can become masters to Padawans but they don't get the rank of Master until they do raise Padawans to Knighthood.

He did learn. He cited the Jedi way constantly. He merely chose not to follow it and that's on him.

Very clearly to us, not to every character (specially the Jedi).

It has been done. He didn't act on it. Until he did.

They are aware that he's learning. They are not aware that he's not applying his teachings. Because he does that behind their backs.

Obi-Wan would do it his own way, the same way every other Jedi would. Inspired by their own masters? Sure. What Anakin failed to do is not something that Obi-Wan failed to teach, and it's not something that Yoda or Qui-Gon would teach differently. Anakin is shown to know the teachings, the good from bad, the right from wrong. But he chose wrong. The Jedi teach to let go. Anakin chose not to.

Shmi was eventually freed. Anakin's problem was attachment, not her being free or not. What happened to Shmi could have happened anywhere. Qui-Gon wouldn't let him act on his attachment, to forget his mandate and to go rush to her whenever he feared to lose her. That would make him unreliable, predictable and dependent. Unfit to be a Jedi.

Her mother was no longer a slave. Criminals exist anywhere. To argue thta the Jedi should go out of their way and pander one of their own is completely missing the point. Anakin should let go. Freeing her doesn't make her immune to danger or immortal. We saw that. It was not by accident. If he wanted to be with her, he could leave the Jedi. He didn't. He stayed with them. In any case, living in constant fear of loss is not good for anyone, Jedi or not.

Anakin realized it. Anakin didn't care.

So, you would expect that, but the Jedi can't expect that because...?

Why would he know this? He's an adult. Obi-Wan doesn't have to know where he is and what he's doing. Anakin is responsible for his own actions.

Nobody took him. He left. By his own free will. A free will that his mother trusted him with and insisted upon.

Doesn't matter, life is made of compromises and sacrifices. It would be his choice. What he can't do, is have his cake and eat it too. That's greed.

 

It’s interesting how Anakin acts defensive when the Jedi tells him to spy on Palpatine, but when Palpatine meddles in Jedi affairs, Anakin just sort of rolls along with it without even a “what the hell” comment.

 

Yeah I noticed that.

The Jedi are essentially asking him to do the same as Palpatine does, but Palpatine paints it as a legitimate promotion where the Jedi are painted as spies and traitors.
The irony being the Jedi actually had a more valid reason to be suspicious.

Considering Obi-Wan states "This assignment is not to be on record" it just makes Anakin more paranoid of the Jedi where really Palpatine is completely overstepping his bounds as well. I completely relate to the Jedi wanting to be autonomous from Palpatine, they have the moral high ground. And Imo the Jedi should really only answer to themselves.

But circumstance makes the defining moment a choice between two factions that are visibly suspicious of each other, and Anakin just sides with who can serve him best.