Saga Implications of Linking the ST to the PT and OT (positive thread)

I've said elsewhere that I am interested in the interpretative project of treating all nine official episodes of the saga into a whole, and reading them in good faith. This is the topic of the thread I'm creating. Not to ask what could have been, or to point out the weaknesses or problems. The goal is to find points of connection and attempt to view it as a single nine part saga with a unified narrative and thematic continuities. If these can be linked to George Lucas' intent that's great but here we won't be looking specifically for intentions. That is, if something works it doesn't have to be shown as "intentional" and an interpretation needn't be rejected just because there is a case that it wasn't "intentional."

What are the merits of this nine part story and in what ways can it be considered superior to the six part story that existed before the sequel trilogy was made? I'm framing this in deliberate contrast to the discussions happening elsewhere that center on "waht ifs" and stuff people wish had happened or didn't in the sequels. What happens if we treat them as equal to the originals, again setting aside the questions of what Abrams or Johnson may have intended at some point prior to the completion of the ST? Since many people have poked holes in the sequel trilogy or even disowned it elsewhere, I'm framing this deliberately as a duscussion bounded by a positive regard for the ST which regards it as canon. If possible I'd also like to focus on saga films exclusively, leaving anthology films, EU, and Disney canon materials outside of the saga untouched.

One story in nine episodes. What does it say? What is the importance in particular of the final three episodes as "Part III" of the whole? Are there other ways of dividing the nine episodes into groups that lead to interesting readings? I'd like to explore all of this here.

 

I guess you could say that in a story all about the actions of apprentices and masters, how a master affects their apprentice (specifically with the PT highlighting the flaws of the Jedi Order, showing how easily a Jedi apprentice could fall) it would almost seem incomplete if we didn't see what Luke did as a Jedi Master, to see what his own impact on an apprentice would be. Would he have fared differently to Obi-wan/Yoda and the Jedi masters of the past? So in that way, Ben and Rey sort of do feel like an essential cog in the story of Luke, completing the second "half" of the Skywalker saga.

And just on that note, I think you can view the saga as three acts, OT, PT, then ST. But at the same time, it's in two halves, Anakin/Obi-Wan's journey (Acts 1 and 2) and Luke's (Acts 1 and 3).

And I view the act order as OT, PT, then ST in this sense:
OT: A simple good vs evil story. Sith are bad. Jedi are good. Luke saves the day.

PT: What we know about the Jedi as an establishment is challenged and we see that Jedi can be easily manipulated to fall to the dark side. Knowing this, how will Luke fare as a Jedi master?

ST: Luke learns the hard way that history can repeat itself. So, should the Jedi end?

Plus, with the hint of Palpatine's "unnatural powers" in ROTS, it's hard not to view that now as a hint that his death in ROTJ may not have been final, and that we should be expecting his return in a third act.

On another note, Palpatine's revelations about the 'ritual' does make the Sith Master/Apprentice dynamic and his grooming of Anakin and Luke, more interesting.

Now, I have a lot more to say about what the ST could have done to justify turning the 6-film saga into 9, specifically with regards to history repeating itself and the cycles of war, but I guess that's not for this thread.

 

I think we can look at it in II-I-III sequence and I-II-III sequence.

Both analyses should yield some interesting insights and observations.

I am however especially keen to ask, "When a hypothetical person watches all nine in order with no knowledge of the plot, characters or themes, what will that person see?"

I'm told people who watch 1-6 in saga order who have no prior knowledge, they have an interesting experience. It's clear that George at least wanted people to try viewing it in that way. So I'm especially interested in what it looks like going all the way through, ST included, if we perhaps try to imagine not knowing anything until we see it.

 

For me, when you look at the overall over-arching relation of the 9 part saga, it's a story of the Force and it's attempts to maintain balance. Secondarily, it becomes about the vessels the Force uses to maintain that balance. I find it interesting how the original trilogy is the story of Luke, but when you add the prequel trilogy, it becomes more the story of the rise and fall and redemption of Anakin. If you take out the prequel trilogy, and add in the sequel trilogy, it becomes the story of the rise and fall and redemption of Luke. Put them all together, and it becomes about the rise and fall and redemption of the Force itself, as seen through the exploits of Anakin, Luke, and Rey.

This is such a great topic. I've totally geeked out on this. I have so many thoughts and ideas on this.

 

Another unifying thread I've noticed is failure, and learning from one's failures. We see the failure, and subsequent learned lesson, on all levels. Whether it's Obi-Wan's failure in training Anakin, Anakin's failure in fulfilling the prophecy, the Jedi in preventing the rise of Sidious, they all learn from their failure and at least attempt to right their wrongs. We even see Sidious' failure manifested in his hubris which leads him to underestimate Luke's ability, and not see the conflict rising in Vader. We see it in the Republic's failure to maintain the democracy. We see it in the Empire's failure to defeat the Rebellion, and lastly in the New Republic's failure to accept the threat of the First Order. And above all, we see the Force fail to maintain it's balance, and eventually learn that destroying the past and starting over is what it needed to regain the balance.

 

To add to the thoughts on failure:

"We are what they grow beyond."

Every generation surpasses the previous one. At least in some respects. There's always something to learn from the failures of those who came before.
In this case, I guess the galaxy is forced to learn the hard way that evil can never be truly destroyed; that we have to remain vigilant if we are to stop history from repeating itself. This happens on a macro level, on a personal level and on a spiritual level. The ST generation must deal with the consequences of that and will, presumably, be more watchful in the future than the last generation was.

 

I think the final trilogy is concerned with the challenge of rebuilding, that it isn't necessarily going to be easy. That teaching is itself a new challenge besides just being a warrior yourself. I think it also reinforces the thematic content of the original trilogy where it is never too late for a fallen hero to repent. These are just loose thoughts. I see this discussion as a work in progress.

 

Is there a delete post button I'm not seeing? If not this is the best I can do.

My unifying theory revolved around the Whills, but I mentioned spoilers from episode 9, and the rules post says you'll be banned if you spoil episode 9. I have no idea if that was just pre-release or if it's in perpetuity, so thought I'd better delete my post, just in case.

 

You can post spoiler information in this thread if it concerns Episode IX. The film's been out for over two months now so the ban is lifted.

 

This is it in a nutshell to me.

 

Creatively, I think there are parallels intended between Kylo Ren and Anakin, and possibly between the First Order and the late republic's Jedi Order.

Anyone care to explore this? I mean in terms of how the First order indoctrinates children and trains them, and how Kylo Ren experiences a "call to the light" and by some accounts, progresses toward a breaking point where he fully rejects his past allegiance.

At the same time there are other parallels between the sequels and classic trilogy. One i can think of is Kylo communicating telepathically with his mother, being drawn toward the light; this resembles Luke being called telepathically by Vader toward the dark.

I think there's a lot here if people want to explore it. Rey and Kylo both have Luke parallels, but they also can be read as having Padme and Anakin parallels.

In the final duel of Episode IX, we can see parallels to the Episode III fight and the Episode I fight. There is also a parallel to the Episode VII confrontation between Kylo Ren and his father.

 

Question of the day: In what way or ways does Ben Solo take after Padme?

 

This is outside of any of the story lines present throughout the saga on the whole. I did a bunch of mini-marathons recently for each of the trilogies. Aside from ANH, which was designed as a stand alone in case Lucas never got to revisit, the other two first installments, Ep I & VII, could also work as stand alone movies. Both wrap up rather tidily, just like ANH. Also, I've noticed, if you look at each trilogy's opener, each movie feels a bit separated from the rest of their respective trilogies. While they do all tie into their trilogies, and the saga on the whole, they seem a bit disconnected from the overall story of each trilogy. I haven't pinpointed the exact why each feel disconnected from their respective trilogies, but from watching, it feels like you could take those movies out, and the remaining two movies would still tell a coherent story and would still connect the saga on the whole.

 

Out or curiosity, has anyone done this? ^^
Watched just episodes II, III, V, VI, VIII & IX, I mean. If so, what was it like?

 

I think that the TROS paid off some of the Palpatine stuff the PT set up in a way that ROTJ couldn't/didn't.

I have said this before. With the OT, The Emperor was kind of a cookie cutter evil villain baddie that served as the necessary foil for Vader's ROTJ redemption. Don't get me wrong, The Emperor was delightfully fiendish and evil...a great villain, but there wasn't much to him.

Once the PT came along Palpatine became a lot more important/central to the overarching saga. He was the one who manipulated most of the OT events into existence. We learned about his rise to power, etc.

When the Saga was just 1-6, it felt like the OT ending was a bit more lightweight as far as The Emperor was concerned. So, the ST (especially TROS) goes along way to balancing out the narrative heft that Palpatine has through the entire saga. We see the source of Palpatine's powers, we see the chorus that is chanting all Sith-y through the prequels. While I think Palpatine could/should have been brought back a bit more organically, I think that the 3rd act of the 3rd trilogy evens out the narrative weight of Palpatine throughout the saga.

I have to think about it more, but a trilogy of trilogy works better as far as hero cycle method of mythology/storytelling goes. Instead of the OT being the main events and the PT being backstory, a trilogy of trilogies actually evens the playing field by making each trilogy a vital piece of the puzzle with the OT being the fulcrum. Again, I have more thoughts on this and I'll post more later. Great topic, @cratylus