***IMPORTANT*** Forum content standards discussion--FINAL DRAFT FOR REVIEW (12/14)

Due to some recent complaints, I think we need to re-visit the issue of what is and is not acceptable, and I'm going to need to go on a mad modding run over the next few weeks.

Some issues that have come up recently involve:

Language
Sexual references (not just depictions)
Sexual depictions
Violence level
Perceived blasphemy
Inaccuracy of presentation
Addressing other posters/real world people

I tend to state things directly as if everything is decided--that's just the way I talk--but please feel free to comment and argue. Some things are simply not up for votes--things that come down from admin--but a lot is a question of setting community standards.

---------------

Language
Generally, we have agreed on language included in the books as being all right. This is not absolute--the issue constantly comes up for discussion, and different words have been assumed to be all right by different mods. In general, try not to swear--that's the best way.

As for "symbolling out" words--eg, "Oh, ****!" he exclaimed--please do not do this. We know what the words are, and the point is to not use them in the first place. This doesn't come from above, but I think personally that common "replacement" words (eg, "frick") should probably also be avoided.


Sexual references (not just depictions)
There has been some discomfort with references to inappropriate attractions (eg, Anakin Solo being attracted to his aunt, Mara Jade). While there is an argument to be made that this does in fact occur in the NJO books (not to mention the ESB sib-smooch ), we probably need to re-think its presence in threads here.

Sexual depictions
As always, keep the bedroom door closed, or be extremely, extremely discreet.

Violence level
Everyone seems to have different ideas here. For myself, I think of Raiders of the Lost Ark as the top level of PG-rated violence. Others seem uncomfortable with the thought of melting and exploding heads on a PG board.

To repeat for the umpteenth time: graphic torture is not permitted on the JC. I've been hearing again that torture fics are on the upswing. I will be going through using searches over the next few weeks. A lot of what is "graphic" may be a judgment call, but generally, the "two screens of text" rule is a good one--if a character is being put through the rack for more than two screens, I'll be in touch with the author about editing. Beyond that, I'll have to just use judgment based on the sort of thing that's happening and how graphically it's described.

Perceived blasphemy
Obviously, we should not make fun of religions any more than we should make fun of races. However, what some people perceive as joking around with their own religions may be perceived by others as attacks on theirs. (The case in point was a spoof on Maradusa in which a Genesis style was used to poke fun at the EU. Personally, I found it funny and have read spoofs of Genesis itself that are quite amusing--Cosby's "Noah" routine for one--but I'd like to know what other people think here.)

Inaccuracy of presentation
This is a question of whether or not a scenario is being presented true to the movies or the books.

Addressing other posters/real world people
Under no circumstance is it permitted to attack and insult fellow posters. We don't have a huge problem with that here at fanfic (thank heavens, this is a friendly forum), but it's something to keep in mind. If a thread is trolled, the originator should either ignore it or report it to a mod.

Most people here know that it's not our custom to publically correct grammar and/or spelling, or to attack stories the way an argument might be attacked in the discussion forum. Because this is a completely local phenomenon, I usually PM people who might be new to explain it, but regulars know it isn't taken well and it will be treated as flamebaiting if it's a repeat behavior.

On to real people who are not members of the forum:
I'm going to say upfront that saying a chara

 

While there is an argument to be made that this does in fact occur in the NJO books (not to mention the ESB sib-smooch ), we probably need to re-think its presence in threads here


Yes, *please* rethink that. And it does not ACTUALLY happen in the books. The majority of those who have read that book would actually agree with me.


I also feel making fun of real life people is just disrespectful, no matter how much you might despise the person.


I know the purpose of fanfiction is to be able to write your own story, but some things go overboard.

 

Yes, *please* rethink that. And it does not ACTUALLY happen in the books. The majority of those who have read that book would actually agree with me.

I've read the passage in question, and it definitely strikes me as very inappropriate and as incestuous as the ESB kiss. However, the question is whether or not we allow it here, not whether or not they allow it at Del Rey.

 

I understand most of it and think it's understandible.

I do have a question though and it may sound extremely stupid, but what it graphic torture?

 

I do have a question though and it may sound extremely stupid, but what it graphic torture?

Definitely not a stupid question, and one that I'd like to discuss.

An example might be: A story which is largely about Obi-Wan being captured by the enemy. They decide to... I don't know, bleed him slowly to death or something. Rather than cutting to Qui-Gon's perspective once that chilling announcement is made and letting the imagination run while the attempt to rescue him is mounted, the "camera" lingers in the torture chamber and shows the tubes being inserted, describing how painful it would be... etc, etc. That would be way over the top.

But would it be to just say, "The mad scientist said, 'It's his blood we want.' Behind him, Obi-Wan could see a table full of sinister looking needles. The scientist picked one up and came forward..."? And then cut away from the scene. The same thing is implied, but since it's not shown, would that be normal?

Anyway, it's a very important question.

 

Inaccuracy of presentation
This is a question of whether or not a scenario is being presented true to the movies or the books.


Isn't this pretty subjective? What about AU stories? Or *shudder* 'Obidalas?'... Or people who think that Anakin was Uber evil from the start? Things that I personally disagree and don't write but think that any Fan fic author should be able to decide for themselves... isn't that what fan fic is all about?

 

Recently I?ve seen a pile of sexual references, profanity, incest, and the sort I wouldn?t believe to be allowed on this site. And it has continued on. I believe some know what I am talking about, but really ? shouldn?t this site be family friendly? Mods cracked down on a user for using one swear word in a casual interview, and yet I see occurrences like this pass by without a second?s notice. If this site holds a PG rating, shouldn?t this rating be enforced regularly?

I believe some users hold the opinion that whatever happened in the books should be permitted here. Now, I deeply disagree with that statement, and think we should be quick to establish that not everything we read from the books can be family-friendly. I have no idea why people harbour this assumption, but backing a claim based solely on the ?It was in the books? theory shouldn?t stand.

As for the ?perceived blasphemy?, it comes down to being a difference of opinion. As a non-Christian character I wouldn?t have even noticed the Bible references in any parody, but there are those we did see and were offended by it. I wouldn?t go so far as to say banning any talk of religion in fanfiction, as the way of the Force is very much a religion; however, we can all step close to the line when we involve ?real life? religion. It?s for that reason that I?d like to see it advised that ?real life religion? isn?t included in fanfiction, if possible.

I second the sentiment that ?real life? people involved in SW should be given due respect.

Am

 

I wasn't sure what you meant there either...if you were referring to "torture stories" where it's a recurring theme, or simply "Obi-Wan gets captured by a Sith and is interrogated" since I featured the latter in DOTF, but I wouldn't call it "graphic" or a central feature of the story, by any means.

Guess I could PM it though since I don't want to be doing anything I'm not supposed to.

Also, care to elaborate on "Innaccuracy of Presentation"? It's a little vague to me.

-Tim

 

It's very difficult to try and enforce a rule that says what is allowed in the officially licensed material of the franchise isn't allowed here--just from a newbie's perspective. Assume that you've been going along reading the books and think, "Wow, it would be fun to write something like that!" then going to a SW fanfic forum and writing something like that... only to be told it's not allowed. It gets very confusing.

For myself, I'm all for going to movie-only standards.

On the blasphemy issue, I am a religious person. So was the person who posted it, I believe. I have a Genesis spoof written by a rabbi that I think is hilarious. I guess the point is that everything offends someone--at what point do we draw the line?

 

Okay, thanks! Get it now.

I'm safe

 

Guess I could PM it though since I don't want to be doing anything I'm not supposed to.

When it doubt, it doesn't hurt to ask first.

Also, care to elaborate on "Innaccuracy of Presentation"? It's a little vague to me.

The complaint came up in regards to the Mara satire thread, that the exaggerated scenarios were inaccurate to the books they were spoofing. Personally, I'd tend to include other things as "inaccurate" as well (scum Anakin fics, Obidalas, etc) and that's not a modding habit I want to get into.

On the issue of language vs. content, the fact is that it's very easy to mod on language--I can just do a search and if something turns up, I can edit it. It's an absolute rule and easy both to follow and to enforce. Content is more comprehensive and deals with more fundamental aspects of a story. It tends to be a lot more slippery.

 

Bear with me here, I have a few questions.

In general, try not to swear--that's the best way.
Thank you. I've never actually read a bad curse word in fanfic, but I know I wouldn't want to.

This is a question of whether or not a scenario is being presented true to the movies or the books.
I have a question about this one. Is that like if a character does or says a little thing out of character, or if the character acts like a different one with the same name? And to whoever said it, I thought AUs were about how the characters would react to a scenario that never occurred, so they should be in character? (EDIT: I think you answered this while I was typing. )

Under no circumstance is it permitted to attack and insult fellow posters.
Question: does this count references to "fanboys"?

I'm going to say upfront that saying a character is ugly or describing a character in unflattering terms does not, to me, constitute slurring an actor or model, though I can see why it would be perceived as such and think it's not the best thing to do (on a personal, not mod level).
It's not necessarily when they're called ugly, it's when they're called stupid.

there's a whole thread about how Anakin and Padme have "such ugly children" elsewhere.
Well, personally I don't think that should be allowed either.

Speaking fully for myself, I respect all the actors/crew/etc involved in SW and would like to see them treated with respect in all the forums.
Amen!

 

I have a question about this one. Is that like if a character does or says a little thing out of character, or if the character acts like a different one with the same name? And to whoever said it, I thought AUs were about how the characters would react to a scenario that never occurred, so they should be in character?

Well, as a writer more than a mod, I would say that an AU is when the characters have to be most in character--you have to have the character down pat to know how he or she would react in a scenario different from the one he or she actually had.

It's not necessarily when they're called ugly, it's when they're called stupid.

I may have missed something, but in the thread in question, I didn't see a reference to the model anywhere. The accusation confused me, so I went back to look and just didn't even see her name mentioned.

Under no circumstance is it permitted to attack and insult fellow posters.
Question: does this count references to "fanboys"?

That tends not to be specific to someone--I was referring to a thread where someone said, "Screw you" to another poster--but what do people think? "Fanboyz"--in or out?

 

Recently I?ve seen a pile of sexual references, profanity, incest, and the sort I wouldn?t believe to be allowed on this site. And it has continued on. I believe some know what I am talking about, but really ? shouldn?t this site be family friendly? Mods cracked down on a user for using one swear word in a casual interview, and yet I see occurrences like this pass by without a second?s notice. If this site holds a PG rating, shouldn?t this rating be enforced regularly?

It has been my understanding that this kind of thing can happen, but when it is witnessed, it should be immediately reported to the mods. Afterall, they simply cannot read every post put up on the boards. They are all volunteers, after all. So, I think if you want to see this stuff limited, you would have to take an active approach to help police the boards you are reading. Also, talk to the author, in PM of course, and let them know that it is your understanding that their post is not in accordance w/ the standards. I've done this a couple of times and have always been met w/ cooperation. Sometimes the people putting up stories, do not always read all of the standards, or if they do, they don't keep up on the changes to them.

In short, if you want family friendly boards, then you need to pitch in and give the mods a hand up now and then.

 

I'll go find the model comment, be right back!

 

We REALLY need some clarification here, these rules are so incredibly subjective.

1)Sexual references (not just depictions)/
Sexual depictions

There was a whole thread about this, Where exactly is this 'line', and if you try to say 'go by the movies with Han and Leia, 90% of the Ani/Padme stories will have to be cut. H&L barely hold hands!!! There is (as of yet) no nookie in SW.


2) Violence level,

SW has decapitaions and whole worlds being anialated in one fell swoop.

3) Perceived blasphemy

You have said that you are a 'religious person', by this I am assuming Christian... So, does this mean FF must adhere to 'christian' standards of blasphomey? What about the 'rest of us'. (I feel that my beliefs have no bearing in this conversation)

4) Inaccuracy of presentation

Again... this is SO incredibly vauge and subject to interpretation. What about Dark Horse Infinities???. AU? Beginning writers who are learning characterisation? Mary SUE?

5)Addressing other posters/real world people

As in "actor Fics?"... This I happen to agree with... VERY few sights disallow "actor Fics" (my 'own' included) because of the MANY issues involved (privacy, defamation, creepy-stalkeresuques fans) But you need to say so in Dick and Jane levels.. no loop holes on that one.


Now, as I said, who is enforcing these standards? Has JCF's fanfiction board become a (for want of a better word) Dictatorship? And WHO's Standards are they?The "Archives" are already full of stories that prove that one man's meat is another man's poison... (I know of many stories that were rejected for various reasons yet I see OTHER stories that made the cut that are far more (insert 'no no' here, sexual, violent 'out of character ect) then those that were rejected.

This may seem like a harsh post and I have probabaly (not for the first time) placed a big target on my head but if you are going to be making such an announcement you've got to be prepared for the fall out.

 

In the case in question, I'm on the thread and have been keeping an eye on it, but disagree about the level of sex/violence/etc. It's about on the level of Saturday Night Live.

You have said that you are a 'religious person', by this I am assuming Christian... So, does this mean FF must adhere to 'christian' standards of blasphomey? What about the 'rest of us'. (I feel that my beliefs have no bearing in this conversation)

I'm Jewish, actually. But no, this wouldn't be relegated to Judeo-Christian norms. It would include spoofs based on the Ramayana or the Koran or pagan ceremonies or Buddhist monasteries, etc, etc. If we make a rule prohibiting the use of religious icons in humorous settings, it would be across the board.

 

JG: Nope, the post in question about the model was edited, but I've seen some nasty stuff about certain authors too.

 

Yeah. I'm going to crack down on the Zahn-bashing.

I think most people were very confused by the question of the model, though. No one seemed to know what was being referred to.

As in "actor Fics?"... This I happen to agree with... VERY few sights disallow "actor Fics" (my 'own' included) because of the MANY issues involved (privacy, defamation, creepy-stalkeresuques fans) But you need to say so in Dick and Jane levels.. no loop holes on that one.

I hadn't wanted to open the actorfic can of worms (I mostly meant things like saying that Luke and Leia are too ugly to be Anakin and Padme's kids, with the whole Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher reference business), but we may as well, as long as we're doing housekeeping. Actorfics are now on the table. Comments?

 

There was a post, something about "Shannon's PR people" but it was edited by the poster.

EDIT: I'm something of a fanfic newbie: what's an actor fic?

 

That tends not to be specific to someone--I was referring to a thread where someone said, "Screw you" to another poster--but what do people think? "Fanboyz"--in or out?


I think it should be edited out. I think its an insult to those who like the EU in general. Its also discriminitive.

 

Actor fics have been banned on sites that are FAR FAR more liberal than TFN... (and As I said, MRSW has banned them from the start.) Fan Fiction.net, many Yahoo groups ect ect have all banned them... It's just playing with fire too much.

"Fanboys"


Its also discriminitive.

Now lets not decend into the ridiculous here. 'Fanboy' falls under the same catagory as "Trekky" or what not. I have been a 'fan boy' (girl) since I could read... it's not like they are calling me something REALLY vulgar... like an Obidala shipper.... now THAT's Nasty!!!!

 

Thanks for putting this up here, JG...I can imagine that trying to come up with workable standards for this stuff isn't easy.


Language -- I agree that it might be...perplexing...to say that language used in officially licensed SW material like the EU books can't be used on a SW forum, but it seems to me like the JC generally is getting stricter and stricter about the words they'll allow on the boards, and seem to want to restrict it down to the movie curses ("hell" and "damn"). If that's what they want, they should just say so, IMO, instead of leaving people quite understandably confused as to what a "PG" curse is, since I think most people would agree that there are swears besides h & d which could fit in that category. A list of words we can use would make things easier...


Sexual References -- Another area where it would seem the preferences of the site owners might not be fully in tune with what is sometimes allowed by the EU books. This is a more gray area than the cursing thing...I guess it would depend on how "inappropriate attractions" are defined. Within families seems would seem like a safe bet, if not for the books (and the movies, depending on how some people might write Luke and Leia ). I know slash of any kind isn't allowed here...are there any other categories people are concerned about or that are definite no-nos to even reference in a story?


Sexual depictions -- I think this is pretty clear cut.


Violence level -- Another gray-ish area, another are where the books and the board may not agree policy-wise. But I think your explanation on torture fics is a good one, and generally follows the movies, where we see bad things about to happen to Han and Leia -- and even hear Han's screams -- but we aren't shown exactly what's happening to them, and certainly not in great, excrutiating detail.


Perceived blasphemy -- I'm surprised this is even an issue, personally (and I'd consider myself religious). Parody certainly does not automatically equal blasphemy, and I've never seen anything close to "blasphemy" on the boards.


Inaccuracy of presentation -- Another one I'm surprised is a concern. Are AUs out because they aren't "true to the movies or the books" in terms of the "scenarios" they portray? Since when did fics necessarily have to be true to the books anyway? If people who don't read EU write post-ROTJ fic are they supposed to be worried about what's in the books? And who gets to decide what's "true" anyway? I could easily list off fics that I think have completely wrong interpretations of the characters and events of the movies. Differences in interpretation (no matter how wacky some interpretations might be) really shouldn't be subject to administrative action. It's pretty much the reason a lot of people write fanfics in the first place...because of something that struck them from the movies, and wanting to explore it. There's no reason that we should all be expected to do so in the same way. This is another non-issue, IMO.


Addressing other posters/real world people -- Pretty straightforward...attacking posters, bad. Attacking a story, bad. Attacking a character? Doesn't bother me personally, though I do understand how repeatedly saying "Leia is ugly" would upset people who like Carrie Fisher. Fine line, but when you get down to it, the characters aren't real people, and I can't see taking a character flame the same way we take user flames, or other real people flames. Attacking a real person who's famous, or not a poster here (like SW actors, for instance)? I think that should be treated the way as flaming posters. Famous or not, posting here or not, they're still people, and if we're supposed to respect one another enough to not say things like, "ami-padme is an ugly idiot" I don't see why we should get to say those things about other people.


Other Stuff

I don't see why "fanboys" as a general term needs to be banned; if someone says to a particular poster "You fanboy!"

 

ami-padme: In the case I mentioned, it wasn't that the term "fanboy" was offensive, it was the way it was used.

EDIT: The fanboys were people who read the SW novels, had pimply foreheads and said things like "duuuude", while movies-only people were "true fans". Why can't all SW fandom just get along? I've only read one other series in my entire life that had canon debates and all this weirdness.

EDIT2: And what is an actor fic? Is it a story about a real person? Because that's kind of creepy.

 

I agree that actor fics are creepy. And I see both sides about fanboyz.

a-p, thanks for the detailed response!

I also think that if it's against the rules to say something about another poster, it should be against the rules to say it about George Lucas or Hayden Christensen or Carrie Fisher or any of them. They're people first and actors second, and I think they deserve the same respect we give each other. (Which sums up my opinion on actorfics. I think I'd be a little creeped out if I was surfing the net and found that someone was writing fiction about me. From there, it's just a question of applying my imagination and thinking, "If I were Natalie Portman and I came across this story while innocently surfing the web, how would I feel about it?") Although, when it comes to spoofs... well, that's one of those gray areas. I'm sure people are a little creeped if a caricature of them ends up on SNL, but that's protected. Janet Reno can't sue Will Farrell for playing her in drag.

Actually, we should probably run that one--the actorfic question--by admin. That may be one of those not-open-for-voting things.

If so, that's going to cause some hard feelings; I hope that if it comes to that, people who are writing them understand the concerns.