Insider #80 to feature Mandalorian article, Yo Joe!

>>"That?s a good thing, I hope."<<

It's a very, very, very, VERY good thing.

 

In the Marvel comics, IIRC, the two Rebel spies went to the Iskalon system after retrieving the DS plans from Bothan space, which suggests it MIGHT be near Bothawui. It is just speculation; we don't really know exactly where Iskalon is.

Yes, I have often wondered if the Nagai claim of coming from another Galaxy is really a "lie." Acc to ICL of AOTC, the main SW galaxy has TWO satellite dwarf galaxies: one of these contains the Rishi Maze and Kamino (which is located south of the Maze, not IN the maze, acc. ot the movies, a fact many fans get confused on) and another one of which we know nothing (perhaps the Tof/Nagai/Maccabree galaxy).

Here is a possible Mandalorian invasion trail:

from Mandalore (assuming the Roon/Tatooine location), up the Corellian Run, to a remnant of the Daragon Trail, following it into the Deep Core to Kuar, then to Koros, and up the Daragon Trail to Ronika, Foerost, and Coruscant.

 

Re: the Nagai and Tofs - basically, they're "from previously uncharted star clusters."

 

Yeah, I've read that, in my opinion a cheap fix to justify the NJO's pathetic attempt at presenting the YV as the first extragalactic invasion, an idea they tried to make seem original and terrifying, despite the fact it was one of the EARLIEST SW plot ideas dating back 20+ years

From the link Master Ed provided, here is an interesting official quote:

"These patches of space, collectively called the Unknown Regions, have been host to a number of threats throughout Star Wars publishing."

THis is one of many quotes that prove the Unknown Regions are REGIONS (plural), non-continuous, not just one section of space.

 

Senator_Cilghal:

In the Marvel comics, IIRC, the two Rebel spies went to the Iskalon system after retrieving the DS plans from Bothan space, which suggests it MIGHT be near Bothawui. It is just speculation; we don't really know exactly where Iskalon is.

Ah. Yeah, it could be almost anywhere, then; I'd be tempted to put it fairly close to Zeltros.

Yes, I have often wondered if the Nagai claim of coming from another Galaxy is really a "lie." Acc to ICL of AOTC, the main SW galaxy has TWO satellite dwarf galaxies: one of these contains the Rishi Maze and Kamino (which is located south of the Maze, not IN the maze, acc. ot the movies, a fact many fans get confused on) and another one of which we know nothing (perhaps the Tof/Nagai/Maccabree galaxy).

Yeah. The "not from another galaxy" thing was fine before we knew there were statellite dwarf galaxies involved. Now there's no reason not to use them to reconcile the original story with the new direction they've chosen to take it.

Here is a possible Mandalorian invasion trail:

from Mandalore (assuming the Roon/Tatooine location), up the Corellian Run, to a remnant of the Daragon Trail, following it into the Deep Core to Kuar, then to Koros, and up the Daragon Trail to Ronika, Foerost, and Coruscant.

Assuming you meant "Koros Trunk Line" for that last leg, that's the route I would expect that they would have had to follow.

Yeah, I've read that, in my opinion a cheap fix to justify the NJO's pathetic attempt at presenting the YV as the first extragalactic invasion, an idea they tried to make seem original and terrifying, despite the fact it was one of the EARLIEST SW plot ideas dating back 20+ years

With the satellite galaxies, it can be fresh again; the Nagai/Tofs et al were the first invaders from another galaxy, but the Yuuzhan Vong were the first invaders from a galaxy outside the GFFA's hyperspace envelope (which would include the satellites).

From the link Master Ed provided, here is an interesting official quote:

"These patches of space, collectively called the Unknown Regions, have been host to a number of threats throughout Star Wars publishing."

THis is one of many quotes that prove the Unknown Regions are REGIONS (plural), non-continuous, not just one section of space.

Well, we know that the Unknown Regions technically contain more than just the vast chunk between Bakura and Helska; that's just the most noticeable part. Basically, if it's uncharted by the rest of the galaxy, it's Unknown. This includes areas in the depths of nebulae or other hazards with no known hyperspace routes, the far edges of the galaxy beyond Wild Space, and, of course, the vast chunk marked out on the maps.

 

I reckon parts of the Deep Core are Unknown Regions as well

Yes, I meant Koros Trunk Line in that last part

DOes anyone here own Gamer #1? It had species stats for the Chuhkyvi (Kiro's race) and probably had the location of Iskalon; I was upset the Chuhkyvi and Stenaxes got left out of UAA, even though they were in Gamer #1 (I only own Gamers 3-10). If anyone can see what it says about the location of Iskalon, let me know.

My IMPRESSION from reading the MC was that Iskalon was in the Outer Rim south of Bothan Space, not far from Lahsbane.

 

Senator_Cilghal:

I reckon parts of the Deep Core are Unknown Regions as well

The only reason I was hesitant to include them was because we know the Empire had some pretty detailed surveys of that area. I don't know if it's ever been stated that the charts cover ALL of the Deep Core, but I figured discretion was the better part of not having to chew on my foot. ;-)

Yes, I meant Koros Trunk Line in that last part

Phew. For a minute there, I thought you had lost all sense of direction. ;-)

DOes anyone here own Gamer #1? It had species stats for the Chuhkyvi (Kiro's race) and probably had the location of Iskalon; I was upset the Chuhkyvi and Stenaxes got left out of UAA, even though they were in Gamer #1 (I only own Gamers 3-10). If anyone can see what it says about the location of Iskalon, let me know.

Alas, no, I don't; and eBay has been fairly unforgiving in letting me change that.

My IMPRESSION from reading the MC was that Iskalon was in the Outer Rim south of Bothan Space, not far from Lahsbane.

Grr. I wish LFL hadn't been so adverse to a galaxy map for so long; had they mapped things from the very beginning, we wouldn't be having all of these headaches. Of course, to a certain extent, the headaches are part of the fun . . .

 

Hi Abel!
I'm also venturing here straight from the SW.com forums.

You've already received tons of compliments about the Mandalorian article, but anyway receive another deep greeting for the superb work!

And since they're in the thread, of course, congratulations to Dan Wallace and Joe Corroney which in their own way have created great contributions to the Star Wars universe.

Anyway, straight to the questions... you mentioned an impressive list of reference material you drew upon to create the Mandalorian article. Is all that material yours, or is there a "LFL Library" open for those who need to research those topics when creating official material?

(And no I'm not thinking of assaulting the library, scan the old WEG sourcebooks and return them, no, I'm not thinking of it... definitely not thinking... did I ask where it was? )

And BTW, on another topic, I host a Spanish-language news bulletin that keeps my readers informed of all that happens on the SW universe. Would you care to do a small interview with us?

Thanks in advance, and again thanks for 1. such a great article, 2. such a great explanation on the online supplement and 3. such a great debate on this board, took me over 3 hours to read everything important!

 

Ris_jSarek wrote:
?With the satellite galaxies, it can be fresh again; the Nagai/Tofs et al were the first invaders from another galaxy, but the Yuuzhan Vong were the first invaders from a galaxy outside the GFFA's hyperspace envelope (which would include the satellites).?

My thoughts exactly, jSarek?and probably a fairly intentional move on Dan?s part, as well.

Korpil wrote:
?Hi Abel!
I'm also venturing here straight from the SW.com forums. You've already received tons of compliments about the Mandalorian article, but anyway receive another deep greeting for the superb work!?

Welcome Korpil! Thanks very much for the compliment. I've got more EU goodness coming in the following weeks.

?Anyway, straight to the questions... you mentioned an impressive list of reference material you drew upon to create the Mandalorian article. Is all that material yours, or is there a "LFL Library" open for those who need to research those topics when creating official material??

Yes?it?s actually all mine.

?And BTW, on another topic, I host a Spanish-language news bulletin that keeps my readers informed of all that happens on the SW universe. Would you care to do a small interview with us??

Sounds fun, Korpil. Private message me with some details.

?Thanks in advance, and again thanks for 1. such a great article, 2. such a great explanation on the online supplement?

I believe it was Pablo Hidalgo who wrote the out-of-universe Hyperspace companion piece to the History of the Mandalorians. The only reason I?m guessing Pabs is because I really don?t know any other LFL regular that could have traced some of the more obscure sources the Insider article referred to (i.e. Feskitt Bobb).

?and 3. such a great debate on this board, took me over 3 hours to read everything important!?

Hope you had fun. Thanks for stopping by!

Best,
Abel

 

Hey all.

I'm currently working on transcribing Canderous' dialogue from the first KOTOR and, although I'm still relatively early in the game, I have yet to read/hear a single line of dialogue that supports the notion that Canderous/the Mandalorians of this era specifically find it dishonorable to accept money for battle. His statements thus far can easily be read as saying that the battle being challenging and worthwhile is all that matters.

Again, it's still early going, and a line to the contrary may still appear, I was just surprised because the most often cited source of this idea - that Canderous would consider Jaster and Jango's Mandalorians dishonorable solely because they made a living off of their skills (regardless of how challenging and honorable the jobs may have been) - was the dialogue between the player and Canderous regarding his employment with Davik. At no time during any of this dialogue does Canderous indicate such a thing, however.

I'll keep you updated, and when I'm done I'll post the transcript here in the Lit section, but for now it appears possible that this rift between the ideals of the ancient Mandalorians and their "Modern" counterparts was just the creation of internet fanboy speculation.

Sorry if there was a more appropriate place to post this, I didn't think it worthy of it's own thread until I had completed the transcript .

 

It's better to play KOTOR 2 and hear what Canderous says about Mercenaries.

 

Hey folks. I wanted to take the time to thank everyone who wrote in to the folks at Insider to let them know how much you enjoyed the History of the Mandalorians piece. You've ensured that I'll be able to continue writing new Star Wars pieces for Insider in the future, so thank you. In fact, for those of you who have Hyperspace memberships, you can check out the piece I did for the online supplement for Insider #81 here:

http://www.starwars.com/hyperspace/member/insideronline/81/indexp7.html

I've also been informed that one of the letters sent in praise of the Mando piece appears in the print version of Insider #81, so it might very well be one of the people here.

Thanks again folks!

Best,
Abel

 

Hmmmm...might be me. We'll see.

 

anyone notice that the music for republic commando is in mandalorian? hehehe. cant imagine mandalorian choirs...

 

Looking forward to the transcription, Reverend. Maybe DarthMane2 can find the time to transcribe Canderous?s lines from KOTOR2.

Leto II wrote:
?Hmmmm...might be me. We'll see.?

Good luck, Leto II! That?s how I got my start ?writing? for Star Wars Insider. In any case, thanks for writing in.

razzy1319 wrote:
?anyone notice that the music for republic commando is in mandalorian? hehehe. cant imagine mandalorian choirs...?

I don?t know? Didn?t it say in the last Insider than Temuera Morrison can really belt a tune? Those Mandalorians are a versatile bunch.

Take care,
Abel

 

When you ask Canderous, he says that those who fight for money don't do it for the honor, but only for the money. When you speak to both clans of Mandalorians, Canderous is very firm with them saying,"Your time as Mercs is over, return to Dxun."

So KOTOR 2 is enough to defind Canderous thoughts on those Mercenaries.


In KOTOR 1 when speaking to Jon(A Dantooine citizen who's family was killed by Mandalorian Mercs) Canderous calls them, "FOOL," speaking of how they should be conquering worlds.

Even your Article implys they don't fight for the credit if they are strong believers in the Canons of Honor.

 

DarthMane2 Said:

When you ask Canderous, he says that those who fight for money don't do it for the honor, but only for the money.

Exact quote, please .


When you speak to both clans of Mandalorians, Canderous is very firm with them saying,"Your time as Mercs is over, return to Dxun."

This proves nothing other then that Canderous had stockpiles of left over weaponry and supplies and that therefore the Mandalorians he recruited would no longer have to earn a living.


So KOTOR 2 is enough to defind Canderous thoughts on those Mercenaries.

WHOOPS! Looks like you left out some of your sentence. Probably just simple typos. Allow me to fix it for you:

"So, in my opinion, KOTOR 2 is enough to defend what I believe to be Canderous' thoughts on Mercenaries."

There you go .


In KOTOR 1 when speaking to Jon(A Dantooine citizen who's family was killed by Mandalorian Mercs) Canderous calls them, "FOOL," speaking of how they should be conquering worlds.

I'd ask for a specific quote, but I'm just about to start transcribing Dantooine, so I'll know the context soon enough.


Even your Article implys they don't fight for the credit if they are strong believers in the Canons of Honor.

Where does it do that?

 

"This proves nothing other then that Canderous had stockpiles of left over weaponry and supplies and that therefore the Mandalorians he recruited would no longer have to earn a living. "

No it goes along with his thoughts about Mercenaries. Whom he feels don't do it for the honor, but for the money. When he's talking to Kreia he speaks of how he saved the Mandalorians from their weak jobs.

OH AND IT IS ENOUGH TO PROVE HIS THOUGHTS ON MERCENARIES, and I don't have to transcript anything. Play KOTOR 2 and find out for yourself. I know what he said damnit. I paid attention, because I knew I could use his thoughts to defend my claims.

"Following their failed campaign, the crusaders found a new object to worship, the almighty credit."

Canderous ordo bio: "Though he despised that unethical monsters most Mandalorian Shock troopers had become, he saw little use in trying to change them until the glorious day when he would claim the title of Mandalore for himself"

From article: Many bloodthirsty and amoral Mandalorians resented him, having enjoyed the unaccountability of their mercenary lifestyles.

All leads to the fact that to Mandalorians being a Merc is dishonorable. Mandalorians loot and conquer to get what they need. They don't fight for money, because fighting for money makes them dishonorable.

I believe even Abel Pena himself agreed that the Canons of Honor Mandalorians would resent the Jaster/Vilsa Mandalorians.

No fan boy dream crap face. It's all in KOTOR/KOTOR 2, and the Article.

 

Back to the honor discussion? To help clear it out.

Canderous did found Mercenaries as dishonorable, however in both games he always use extreme cases as examples, those who made the credits their lifestyle and ultimate goal. However Its safe to assume he would look down on Jaster anyways (Canderous was as devoted to the Old Mandalorias as Mane).

On the other side, I think its safe to assume that Jaster would find Canderous to be the dishonorable one, for one simple reason. They're different and opposites in many aspects.

Mandalorians of Old were conquerors, raiders, looters, murderers, whatever you call someone that fights for the sake of fighting and kills whoever gets on they way with their views of "Honor"

New Mandalorians (As in Jaster, jango, Fenn) were Mercenary Protectors, Law Enforcers, whatever you want to call at someone who took Legal jobs and act as an Army (Since the republic has none previous to Ep II) with their own views on "Honor"

Trey're different, live on different times, have different roles, and different views on honor. However they remain the same on many things, they still live of fighting, both were feared, etc.

Sources to backup my words
Tales of the Jedi/Kotor I & II for the old mandalorians, many references to "Crusaders" and "Fight against worthy opponents"

Open Seasons, Marvel and Misc PT material for the "new" Mandalorians, (all paid jobs on open seasons are for local goverments or against rebellious groups)

There's also a in-between mandalorians, the mercs around 1000 bby, but i can't help there.

Just choose the Mandalorians you like and let the others be, both are dishonorable in each other views, at the end its just which ones do you like/defend.
Is similar to Prequel Jedi, OT Jedi and NJO Jedi, just different.

 

DarthMane2 said:

No it goes along with his thoughts about Mercenaries. Whom he feels don't do it for the honor, but for the money. When he's talking to Kreia he speaks of how he saved the Mandalorians from their weak jobs.

Okay, now you're just being irrational. The quote in question is this: "Your time as Mercs is over, return to Dxun."

You're saying that this quote proves that he feels Mercenaries have no honor, and, frankly, I think that's reading what you want into a pretty simple statement which doesn't "prove" anything. Sorry.


OH AND IT IS ENOUGH TO PROVE HIS THOUGHTS ON MERCENARIES, and I don't have to transcript anything.

No, but considering your bias on this subject and the fact that you have already taken quotes that are blatently open to interpretation and declared them as "proof" don't be surprised by my complete inability to take you seriously until you do so .


Play KOTOR 2 and find out for yourself. I know what he said damnit. I paid attention, because I knew I could use his thoughts to defend my claims.

Sorry once again, but I'm busy playing KOTOR 1 and transcribing Canderous' dialogue in order to benefit the Star Wars community that might want easy access to that info. And, to be honest, since you read a ridiculously immense amount of stuff into a quote like "Your time as Mercs is over, return to Dxun" I don't think anyone should trust your interpretations to be unbiased.


"Following their failed campaign, the crusaders found a new object to worship, the almighty credit."

And?


Canderous ordo bio: "Though he despised that unethical monsters most Mandalorian Shock troopers had become, he saw little use in trying to change them until the glorious day when he would claim the title of Mandalore for himself"

Canderous despised Mandalorians Shock Troopers that were unethical. So? Where does that say anything about a Mandalorian being dishonorable for the sole reason that they accept money? Once again, it seems to me that you have yet to prove that anything else matters as long as the combat is an honorable challange.


From article: Many bloodthirsty and amoral Mandalorians resented him, having enjoyed the unaccountability of their mercenary lifestyles.

Yup. Mandalorians like The Death Watch that would come later, not like Jaster and Jango's Mandalorians who followed an honorable code. Still don't see anything that says earning a living is dishonorable.


All leads to the fact that to Mandalorians being a Merc is dishonorable.

Nope, nothing you have posted comes even close to proving that as a "fact", sorry to disappoint you .



I believe even Abel Pena himself agreed that the Canons of Honor Mandalorians would resent the Jaster/Vilsa Mandalorians.

Really? Where?


No fan boy dream crap face. It's all in KOTOR/KOTOR 2, and the Article.

Then how unfortunate you have yet to present any evidence from either of those sources as proof of your claims.

Oh, and calling me a "crap face"? Wow, that's pretty sad. I guess your not past your adolescent temper tantrum stage yet, huh? Oh well, be strong, one day you'll be a real live grown-up.



Endaeon said:

Canderous did found Mercenaries as dishonorable, however in both games he always use extreme cases as examples, those who made the credits their lifestyle and ultimate goal.

Those that did that we're obviously willing to engage in dishonorable combat. Isn't it possible, even probable, that it was this that Canderous objected to?


However Its safe to assume he would look down on Jaster anyways (Canderous was as devoted to the Old Mandalorias as Mane).

Sorry, I don't follow you there. Jaster only took jobs that allowed him and the other Mandalorians to engage in honorable challenges in order to earn the credits necessary to rebuild the Mandalorian Warriors. He also managed to finally reunite all of the clans for the first time since before Canderous was Mandalore. From what I have read so far, I have

 

Who care's if I'm sad. I don't.

Canderous says that Mandalorians are dishonorable because they don't fight for honor but for the money. Thus dishonorable.

KOTOR 2, play it,

Even that is enough. And please Canderous meant that the Mandalorians merc clans should STOP their merc ways and return to Dxun. Not because he had enough crap,because he didn't. He did so in order to make the Mandalorian clans stop fighting for money, and rejoin their people. Canderous was a convert of the Canons of Honor, he followed them, and exspected his Mandalorians to as well.

"Canderous despised Mandalorians Shock Troopers that were unethical. So? Where does that say anything about a Mandalorian being dishonorable for the sole reason that they accept money? Once again, it seems to me that you have yet to prove that anything else matters as long as the combat is an honorable challange. "

Because it's meant to go along with his view on Mercenaries slim.

 

And you want Abels' comment, you go find it yourself. I tried searching for some notes the other day, and it took me forever to find on this thread.

 

"New Mandalorians (As in Jaster, jango, Fenn) were Mercenary Protectors, Law Enforcers, whatever you want to call at someone who took Legal jobs and act as an Army (Since the republic has none previous to Ep II) with their own views on "Honor"

Actually under Fenn they weren't mercenaries. Under Jango they were, and under Boba they were for a time under conditions. That was until the vong attacked though, so Boba's has left the Mercenary life behind as of the Vong War.

 

DarthMane2 said:

Who care's if I'm sad. I don't.

I never said you were. I'm not the one who was reduced to making a juvenile personal insult, remember?


Canderous says that Mandalorians are dishonorable because they don't fight for honor but for the money. Thus dishonorable.

Exact quote, please .


KOTOR 2, play it,

I played through the opening, Telos, Onderon, and most of Nar Shadaa when I encountered the fearsome Exchange glitch and lost my game. I have yet to go back, and as I said in my previous post I am working on KOTOR 1 right now.

My previous post, read it .


Even that is enough. And please Canderous meant that the Mandalorians merc clans should STOP their merc ways and return to Dxun. Not because he had enough crap,because he didn't.

Oh re-hee-heally? If Canderous didn't have "enough stuff" then who was it that the Mandalorians had been conquering to survive between Knights 1 and 2? WHat grand battles were they engaged in? What planets were they looting?

The game sure seems to imply to me that the are existing off of the old Mandalorian supplies.

If Jaster had had a massive stockpile of supplies he might not have turned the Mandalorians into Merc in the first place, who knows?


He did so in order to make the Mandalorian clans stop fighting for money...

Exact quote, please .


...and rejoin their people. Canderous was a convert of the Canons of Honor, he followed them, and expected his Mandalorians to as well.

No doubt, but you still have yet to prove that those Canons indicated that making a living was dishonorable.

EDITED TO REPLY TO THE REST:

Because it's meant to go along with his view on Mercenaries slim.

Still reading what you want into quotes, I see. Here's the quote in question: "Though he despised that unethical monsters most Mandalorian Shock troopers had become, he saw little use in trying to change them until the glorious day when he would claim the title of Mandalore for himself."

And, once again, it utterly fails to prove that the simple act of taking money to support oneself is dishonorable.


And you want Abels' comment, you go find it yourself. I tried searching for some notes the other day, and it took me forever to find on this thread.

You brought it up, you can provide it. Until then, it doesn't exist.

 

I don't need to give you ****. Play KOTOR 2, and find out for yourself.

Canderous thought Mandalorian mercs were dishonorable.

Say what you like Reverend, and you want proof that Abel said what he said, look it up yourself.