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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Insider #80 to feature Mandalorian article, Yo Joe!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The2ndRest-in-Peace, Nov 14, 2004.

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  1. Reverend_Tegoth

    Reverend_Tegoth Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2005
    DarthMane2 said:

    I don't need to give you ****. Play KOTOR 2, and find out for yourself.


    Oopsie, might want to watch the cursing there DM2, you might give people the impression that you are something less then the mature, classy individual you obviously are. Heh.

    And nope, you don't have to give me anything, I'm prepared to live with the idea of the users here at TF.N realizing that you don't have a leg to stand on in this debate.


    Canderous thought Mandalorian mercs were dishonorable.

    Just like when you were five saying something over and over again fails to make it true. Shame that, but there it is.


    Say what you like Reverend, and you want proof that Abel said what he said, look it up yourself.

    Nope, I'd rather not strain myself looking for a quote that probably doesn't exist, thanks :).


     
  2. DarthMane2

    DarthMane2 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Oh you don't think it exist, even better. I know it's real,because Abel said it.

    Oh and Canderous thought mercs were dishonorable because they were in ti for the money, not the honor.

    KOTOR 2. Not exact, but pretty damn close


    Abel:
    "I think you made the distinction nicely Nuke: these Merc Mandalores arguably may have been dishonorable to some of the old school Mandalorians"
     
  3. Endaeon

    Endaeon Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Too many quotes confuse me, so I'll explain my words a bit.

    To Mane about Fenn:
    When I put Fenn in the group with Jaster and Jango I wasn't implying he was a merc, only that he was of the "new" branch, he wasn't a conqueror, he fought for his people, not money, but he wasn't fighting for the sake of fighting like "old mandalorians".

    To Tegoth about Canderous/Jaster:
    I said that Canderous would find Jaster dishonorable because I got the impresion that Canderous was closed minded/fanatical and would take everything to the extreme, thus putting all mercs in the same bag. (Personally i don't see anything dishonorable on jaster, but I'm not Canderous)

    To Tegoth about Respecting one Another:
    I can't give you proof because I don't have any, that's just my assumption based on the Fact that they are two different groups, and I really mean different.
     
  4. Reverend_Tegoth

    Reverend_Tegoth Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2005
    DarthMane2 said:

    Oh you don't think it exist, even better. I know it's real,because Abel said it.


    And let's take a look at the quote you provided:

    Abel (according to DM2):

    "I think you made the distinction nicely Nuke: these Merc Mandalores arguably may have been dishonorable to some of the old school Mandalorians"

    Note the words "arguably may"? Note the words "SOME of the old school Mandalorians"?

    So it appears that I was correct, and that a quote where Abel says that Ancient Mandalorians thought that making a living through honorable combat was dishonorable - just doesn't exist.


    Oh and Canderous thought mercs were dishonorable because they were in ti for the money, not the honor.

    Exact quote, please :).


    Endaeon said:

    I said that Canderous would find Jaster dishonorable because I got the impresion that Canderous was closed minded/fanatical and would take everything to the extreme, thus putting all mercs in the same bag. (Personally i don't see anything dishonorable on jaster, but I'm not Canderous)


    As someone who himself was forced to earn a living at one point, and as someone intelligent enough to realize that the Mandalorian Warriors - having been broken apart for centuries - would need a way to survive when reunited, and, finally, as someone wise enough to realize the difference between a bloodthirsty Mandalorian killing whomever for money and a Mandalorian making a living accepting honorable challenges, I believe that Canderous would not have had a problem with Jaster or Jango's Mandalorians.

    Now the Death Watch, on the other hand, he would have loathed. They were just like the Mercs of his day that he hated.


    I can't give you proof because I don't have any, that's just my assumption based on the Fact that they are two different groups, and I really mean different.


    I see Jaster and Canderous as remarkably similar, actually. It's just the details surrounding their circumstances that makes them have to approach things differently, in my opinion.



     
  5. Endaeon

    Endaeon Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Just out of curiosity, Have you played Kotor II?
    Because I though like that before playing it.

    In KotoR I Canderous end doubting the Morality of some of their actions and seems to be compatible with Jaster views, however in KotoR II they butchered his character (or maybe depends on your dialoge options?) because he told me that he disliked Mercs on KotoR II and acted like in the beggining on Kotor I prior to unlocking his dialoge. Maybe he was playing the ruthless type in front of his men, but he seemed eager to go back to conquering.

    What I find Different on both characters (Canderous/Jaster) is that one is a maniac ruling out of fear with an iron fist, and the other is a pious man ruling through respect. (I exagerated them both on purpose to express my point of view)

    Old Mandalorians were conquerors, and took everything by force, new Mandalorians were even liberating worlds and they only acted legally, in open seasons #3 they helped the Governor of galidraan, later they fought for the Emperor.
    Good or evil doesn't matter, in both cases they helped the local goverment.

    They seem different to me, at leat in their motivations.
    Canderous & Old Mandalorian > Worthy battles, Crusades
    Mercs as of the Sith War 1000bby > Only Money?
    Jaster & New Mandalorian > Honorable/Legal Paid Jobs
    Vizla & death watch > Blood & Money
    Shysa's Mandalorian > Future for his people
    They also share somethings in common, they all are the best in their times :p

    Fenn's has the most noble Goal, Vizla's the most selfish, Jaster/Jango the most stable (they have jobs :p) and Canderous... I'm blank here, crusades are... Cool? Canderous has the coolest motivation.
     
  6. Ashandarei

    Ashandarei Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Sorry, quick question not to do with this ongoing debate.

    I recently signed up for Hyperspace, mostly to see the new EP. 3 trailer, but also to read this article. Now, however, the only Insider article I can find is the "Droids and the Force" one. Is there an archives page in the Insider section? Or am I ***?
     
  7. Reverend_Tegoth

    Reverend_Tegoth Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Endaeon said:

    Just out of curiosity, Have you played Kotor II?
    Because I though like that before playing it.


    I played through the opening, Telos, Onderon, and Nar Shaddaa before getting hit with the glitch on Nar Shaddaa that won't allow you to ever meet with the Exchange. I haven't gone back to re-start it yet, but I don't remember ever hearing Canderous say anything that couldn't be interpreted as him only hating the dishonorable Mercs that cared only about money and not honorable combat.
     
  8. DarthMane2

    DarthMane2 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2003
    "In KotoR I Canderous end doubting the Morality of some of their actions and seems to be compatible with Jaster views"

    Don't know about that, he seemed to want to give up fighting completely because he didn't feel motivated to keep going. Of course on the Forge he implys a change of mind, then Revan puts it in his head to become Mandalore in KOTOR 2.

    Canderous is a Canons of Honor follower, he rules with an iron fist. He didn't ask those Mandalorians on Dantooine to go back to Dxun, and to give up their merce lifestyles, he DEMANDED it.
     
  9. Reverend_Tegoth

    Reverend_Tegoth Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Yup. No real reason for the Mandalorian Warriors to be Mercs when they have a stockpile of weapons and supplies, after all :).

     
  10. DarthMane2

    DarthMane2 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2003
    They don't, nor do they need money to do so. Those Mandalorian Merc clans were no longer apart of the Mandalorian gang until Mandalore brought them back. Mandalorian loot, and conquer to get what they need.

    If what you say is true, that would mean he sent those mandalorian out to fight to get money for him. However he wasn't using that reasoning on Dantooine, he was very firm and demanding. Not caring how much money they had or not. He wanted them to stop because he didn't like it.


     
  11. Reverend_Tegoth

    Reverend_Tegoth Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2005
    DarthMane2 said:

    They don't, nor do they need money to do so. Those Mandalorian Merc clans were no longer apart of the Mandalorian gang until Mandalore brought them back. Mandalorian loot, and conquer to get what they need.


    So what planets have the Mandalorians been plundering and looting between KOTOR1 and KOTOR2? Canderous and his Mandalorians are obviously surviving off of the supplies and weapons caches as of the beginning of KOTOR2.


    If what you say is true, that would mean he sent those mandalorian out to fight to get money for him. However he wasn't using that reasoning on Dantooine, he was very firm and demanding. Not caring how much money they had or not.


    I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. I very specifically said that Canderous didn't need the Mandalorians to be Mercs because he had caches of weapons and supplies. I said nothing about him needing them to gather money for him - in fact, that idea contradicts what I said!


    He wanted them to stop because he didn't like it.


    In your opinion. It seems more likely to me that he wanted them to stop because he was trying to reunite the clans. Hard to do that if everyone's spread out randomly.
     
  12. DarthMane2

    DarthMane2 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2003
    He wanted them to stop because he didn't like it, and he also wanted ot reunite the clans. He didn't like what these Merc clans were becoming, and he put a stop to it.

    Um if they have catches of weapons on dxun they don't need to conquer anything until they get back up to strength.


    But the Mandalorinas themselve loot and conquer to get what they want. They didn't BUY the Basilisk off the Basiliskan. They took em.
     
  13. Reverend_Tegoth

    Reverend_Tegoth Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2005
    He wanted them to stop because he didn't like it...


    In your opinion :).


    ...and he wanted ot reunite the clans.


    Yup.


    He didn't like what these Merc clans were becoming, and he put a stop to it.


    He didn't like the dishonorable ones that didn't care about honorable challenges in combat, that's for sure. The ones, as I said, like the Death Watch, not the ones like Jango and Jaster.


    Um if they have catches of weapons on dxun they don't need to conquer anything until they get back up to strength.


    Um, yeah, that's only what I've been saying for several posts now, thank you for finally realizing my point. Canderous has caches of weapons and doesn't need to conquer anything until they get back up to full strength - Jaster doesn't have these convenient caches, and so the clans have to remain Mercenaries at least until the day they get back up to full strength.



     
  14. DarthMane2

    DarthMane2 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Um no, Jaster believed in fighting for money. He thought that's all they were meant to be. Read Open Seasons. He wasn't doing it for nothing, except for the credit. He may have done it with a sense of honor, but that's it.
     
  15. Reverend_Tegoth

    Reverend_Tegoth Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Um no, Jaster believed in fighting for money. He thought that's all they were meant to be. Read Open Seasons. He wasn't doing it for nothing, except for the credit. He may have done it with a sense of honor, but that's it.


    We never hear Jaster speak or read his thoughts in regard to his motivations. If he's just doing it for the credits then why reunite the clans at all? Jango and Boba had no problem making a living without the other Mandalorians.



     
  16. DarthMane2

    DarthMane2 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Oh, so now a passage that's apart of continuity is wrong.

    I love this kinds of stuff. This, "Just because he said it doesn't mean it's true bull." It's in the comic, it's true. It wouldn't have been written otherwise.

    Jaster was already a Mandalorian merc when he reunited the Merc clans. He just gave them a new sense of honor, that was it.

     
  17. Reverend_Tegoth

    Reverend_Tegoth Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Did I miss the part where you explained why Jaster would bother to reunite the clans in the first place if all he cared about was credits? Because I don't see an answer in your post.

    I'm sure you do love these "kinds of stuff" seeing as how you have no problem twisting any piece of dialogue you hear to mean what you want it to mean, and then labeling it as a "fact."

    (I especially liked how you tried to say that Canderous' simple, one sentence line: "Your time as Mercs is over, return to Dxun." was "proof" that he hated any Mandalorian that dared earn a living off of their skills. Hee-larious! I think I snorted.)

    With that in mind I'd imagine that you should have no problem with my decision to wait and see what Jaster's full motivations were - since as I have already pointed out, if all he cared about was money he wouldn't have bothered with the clans at all.
     
  18. DarthMane2

    DarthMane2 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2003
    Open Seasons has it as Fact slim

    Jaster thought that all Mandalorians were nothing but common mercs,nothing more. It's said so right in Open Seasons. He was a Mandalorian Merc, who was hooked up with Mandalorian Mercs, who brought Mandalorian Merc clans together under a new code of honor.



     
  19. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Wasn't another thread created for this particular argument? This one, I think?
     
  20. Reverend_Tegoth

    Reverend_Tegoth Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2005
    DarthMane2 said:

    Jaster thought that all Mandalorians were nothing but common mercs,nothing more. It's said so right in Open Seasons.


    Open Seasons was written before it was revealed that Jaster had reunited the Mandalorian clans.

    I ask again (three times now) why would Jaster bother with the clans if, as you claim, all he cared about was money?


    He was a Mandalorian Merc, who was hooked up with Mandalorian Mercs, who brought Mandalorian Merc clans together under a new code of honor.


    He reunited all of the clans, period. It states this quite clearly in the article.

     
  21. QuentinGeorge

    QuentinGeorge Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2003
    Reverend_Tegoth: 1,000,000

    Darth Mane: 0

    Play on!
     
  22. Endaeon

    Endaeon Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Open Seasons line about Jaster caring only for credits was said by Dooku, the same guy who said Vizla was a conqueror, he was Wrong with Vizla, he's not a reliable source.

    You take the word of a Sith as fact?

    The Only line about money ever said by Jaster was in relation to Jango's first time as squad leader and an "easy pay"

    Open Seasons #1: had no credits involved at all, however Jaster offered some credits to the one that took them off planet.

    Open Seasons #2: "easy credits" Jango's first mission as squad leader with the Defense force of Korda.

    Open Seasons #3: No credits involved at all, Jango made a deal with the gobernor, crush the opposition in exchange for Information.

    Open Seasons #4: Again no credits, Jango fought against the death watch for honor/revenge.
    However at the end he mentioned "geting a job" since there were no more Mandalorians at this time I don't see a problem.

    Open Seasons #4 + Bounty Hunter: He finally accepted to work for Dooku not for the 5 million credits but for a heir (boba)

    May I ask were you got the Idea that Jaster fights FOR money? Beeing paid for a good job and made payment you reason to live are two really different things.
     
  23. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    What?s up Ashandarei.

    ?I recently signed up for Hyperspace, mostly to see the new EP. 3 trailer, but also to read this article. Now, however, the only Insider article I can find is the "Droids and the Force" one. Is there an archives page in the Insider section? Or am I ***??

    Unfortunately, you might?ve misunderstood. :( While the Droids and the Force piece was available via Hyperspace because it was part of Insider #81?s online supplement, the History of the Mandos came in the print version of Insider #80, and is not available online. You might still be able to find it at newsstands, but if not, you can still find a copy for sale at illustrator Joe Corroney's website:

    http://www.joecorroney.com/stufftobuy/

    Also, while the fictional Mandalorian piece isn?t available on Hyperspace, the story behind the article is. ?Behind the Mandalorians? can be found here:

    http://www.starwars.com/hyperspace/member/insideronline/80/indexp5.html

    Take care,
    Abel
     
  24. DarthMane2

    DarthMane2 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2003
    So Master Jaing was the Mandalorian who gathered more Mandalore clans, in order to face the Sith. Do I assume correctly Abel?

    I believe from what I hear he is called Jaing.

    However a little confusion. When does this all take place?

     
  25. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004
    Hey, sounds like Kotor III
     
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