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CT Is Lawrence Kasdan contribution to Episode 5 (& 6) overrated ?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by fastcooljosh, Apr 9, 2017.

  1. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 21, 2015

    No, I disagree that Lucas was "wrong". I think Harrison was a fantastic choice but like Lucas's train of thought of getting someone different, that too would be a good decision. Lucas has a knack for getting good actors and making them work. Hamil wasn't famous or as talented(during that time) compared to other actors like Alec Guinness.

    If anything It would be the same, just without ford.
     
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  2. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    In this particular case we know that Tom Selleck was Lucas' and Spielberg's combined choice.

    It's easy to see by his work how great he would have been as his version of Indiana Jones.

    Ford , Hamill, Christensen et al. Lucas' hit rate on choosing who should play his characters is as incredible as his ability to chose so many of those he hired in major roles in his movies or company.
     
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  3. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 29, 2015
    ANH would not have been the same without Ford. Harrison Ford's charisma and delivery simply made several scenes work that otherwise had a good chance of falling flat and he was also was responsible for adlib-ing many of the most famous lines in the OT. It shouldn't surprise anyone that he ended up being the biggest star launched out of the OT by quite a bit.

    I feel pretty strongly that ANH would have been quite a bit less successful without Ford.


    And Tom Selleck? He's ok in some things, but he's a vastly inferior talent to Ford and no way would he have been anywhere near as "great"
     
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  4. Taylore

    Taylore Jedi Knight star 1

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    Mar 14, 2017
    Star Wars and Raiders of the Lost Ark each had so much magic involved that one can imagine that they might've been as good without Ford, particularly Star Wars. But on the other hand, even with all of the other creative partners, they're simply not the same without Ford. Maybe Raiders is really good, a hit, but there's too much what-if there for me to say anything other than that the right choice was made.

    Lucas certainly has an eye for casting, most of the time. Most of the time.
     
  5. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    Yes. He was important for sure but the driving force behind the films was George.
     
  6. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 29, 2015
    These threads are just ways to continue the never ending OT/PT battles. Honestly, it's impossible to somehow quantify how much credit each person should get. Obviously Lucas is the most important person, but there's tons of other people who had critical roles as well and I bet there are plenty of people who couldn't be easily replaced.

    I mean, TESB certainly wouldn't be the same without Frank Oz (heck it might have flopped).
     
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  7. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 9, 2009
    Totally agree.

    Such achievements are always a collective thing. Sure G.Lucas is awesome filmmaker/producer, he had the vision of all this, and that's why he usually gets much of the credit. But he needed very talented people (art direction, design, costumes, conceptual design, ILM team, actors etc...) in many fields to make it work so good. They don't get enough credit to me.

    indeed, Yoda's believability onscreen in ESB is still astounding 37 years after. He seems so alive and real for a puppet...F.Oz really did a bloody good job.
     
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  8. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    This is more of an OT/OT battle I'd say.

    We can make some good guesses though and the fact that so many of the people who worked on the OT (before the SE versions) didn't work on the prequels tells you that they could be replaced and were. Whether it was easy or not is another matter but they were.

    No reason to think that someone else would be just as good or even far better. Looking at things after the fact as being the only way doesn't work. Lucas could have made literally thousands upon thousands of different decision every step of the way.
     
  9. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 29, 2015

    Yes - there's no reason at all to think that Frank Oz would be better able to execute a believable puppet character better than anyone else. Lucas would laugh at you if you told him that.

    And what does the fact that different people worked on the PT have to do with anything? Any individual film will have a unique set of people working on it. Following this logic I could point out that the first SW film made after Lucas himself was replaced ended up being by far the most commercially successful SW film since the original.

    The entire idea that Lucas is some unique genius that could have been just as successful regardless of who he worked with is silly and bizarre. It's disrespectful to not only the talented people who worked with Lucas, it's disrespectful to Lucas himself.

    Now, if you want to argue that Lucas should get a lot of credit for surrounding himself with great talent, then yes - I agree!!,... but the notion that somehow he is the only unique un-replaceable person involved with each film is completely preposterous.
     
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  10. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 17, 2015
    Darth__Lobot You’re talking to a person who’s literally said that CITIZEN KANE would’ve been the exact same film without Orson Welles.
     
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Since we now have two SW films made without Lucas and BO-wise and critics wise, they have done very well.
    So by your own logic, even Lucas could have been replaced after ANH and we still would have gotten SW films.
    Would they be identical to the ones we have? Almost certainly not.
    Would they have been as good or better?
    Impossible to answer. But you seem convinced that as long as Lucas is there, the end result will be good/great regardless of who else is involved with the film.

    Lucas could have made many different choices yes and I would say that the choices he did make were at times influenced by the people he worked with.
    Ex C3PO, Lucas had in mind the character being a "Used car salesman." But Anthony Daniels made him instead into a fussy, British butler. Lucas liked it and preferred that to his original choice.
    But replace Daniels and the other actor might just have done the used car salesman and that would have given us a different C3PO.

    About the only thing we can say for sure is that if Lucas had not made the first film, there would be no SW. It was his unique idea and he made it into a reality.
    Had he walked away from SW after ANH or after RotJ, then we would have gotten more SW films.
    Again not identical to ESB, RotJ or the PT.
    Different people would have made different choices. If those choices would have been good or bad, that we can't say.

    In closing, Lucas deserves massive credit but he isn't the only one deserving of credit.
    And to me, if my boss told me "The job you are doing, it could be done just as well if not better by other people." I would not take that as getting credit or a compliment. Instead I would most likely take it as a warning that my boss intends to fire me.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  12. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Frank Oz wouldn't. It's not like he did Yoda alone and without Jim Henson's evolution of puppets into muppets it would likely not have been contemplated in the first place.

    There is an interesting interview with Oz where he talks about how good he is but also it's all the people around him that made him and he in turn was part of the group that made what he did.

    In applying this to Yoda he told the interviewer who was so wrapped up in the creation of the voices that Oz told him a voice is like 10% of it and that Lucas was looking at other voices for Yoda before going back to him.

    It's fine to say how everything worked after the fact but for Lucas and his teams that was not the case. They were involved in the process. If they had used the brooklyn accented car salesman 3PO instead of the english butler then that is all we would know and the other option would seem strange to contemplate.

    That Lucas could replace virtually everyone and still make the movies he wanted to. I agree it's no major revelation but it still holds.

    What exactly does money have to do with any of this? I don't recall this line being brought up. Kind of a red herring anyway as TFA is clearly based off of Lucas' Star Wars I-VI and even moreso in particular ANH. As I said in regards to the credits that Lucas very liberally handed out TFA should have done the same and give Lucas story and script credit.

    I don't follow. Obviously he worked with who he chose to. I don't see how "regardless" of who he worked with makes sense.

    He is only going to work with those he chose which is exactly what he did. He's not going to work with people he didn't chose.

    I don't see how that even applies. Certainly I am not disrespectful to Lucas or any of those he hired. What is being talked about is being clear on what everyone actually does.

    That's what I have been talking about.

    We'll have to disagree there. No Lucas. No movies.

    You aren't talking about me. So who?

    Without Welles there is no Kane in the first place. Just as with Lucas there is no Star Wars.
     
  13. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 29, 2015

    I do sometimes wonder if it's just a really, really well executed parody account :)
     
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  14. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 17, 2015
    Qui-Riv-Brid

    I’m almost certain you said that exact same thing when we were discussing colorization.
     
  15. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    This gave me an image of a demented muppet wandering around Dagobah. [face_laugh]
     
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  16. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 29, 2015

    I'm telling you - Yoda spinoff..... a surrealist film about the descent into madness of a Jedi Master in a swamp with only his own thoughts to entertain him
     
  17. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    And Qui-Gon :p
     
  18. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013

    If Lucas had walked away after ROTJ, there probably would be no PT or ST, most likely it would just be some EU novels and comics and Star Wars would be a novelty niche franchise, a relic of the 70s and 80s.
     
  19. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    I disagree, with the movies industries desire to reboot, remake and resurrect all kinds of films I think it would only be a matter of time before they looked at SW.
     
  20. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Not likely.
    RotJ was a huge hit back in 1983.
    If Lucas had sold the rights to Fox in that year or in 1984, I think it is a safe bet that Fox would be looking for ways to continue the franchise.
    By this stage we had gotten two Trek films and a third came out in 1984.
    You had the Rocky films, Dirty Harry, two Superman films and of course the Bond films.
    Movie franchises existed back then too.
    So making more SW films would be natural for whoever owned the rights.

    Since the whole Ep IV-VI had been established at this time and Lucas had talked about three films before the OT and three films after, Fox could very well look to follow that line of thought.
    So not only might we have gotten a PT or ST, we might have gotten them sooner.

    They would almost certainly have been very different and what they would have been like or which we would have gotten first is pretty much impossible to say.
    Harrison was pretty tired of SW and might not have wanted to do more SW soon after Jedi.
    So the PT might be easier to make.

    And like AndyLGR said, given how many old properties have been used over the past 10-15 years, it is hard to imagine Hollywood not tapping the popularity of SW, even if we assume nothing had been made for a decade.

    Now it is possible that Fox or whoever had the rights would make SW films until people got tired of it.
    Or that the quality would get bad to the point that they stopped being profitable.
    And some worry that Disney will do something like this with SW now.
    So far, Disney has little reason to worry about profit.

    But I think one can say with a fair amount of certainty, that IF some studio got the rights to SW back in 1983/1984, more SW films would be made.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  21. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    I was staggered you refer to the OT as a novelty niche franchise, especially considering how big those films were and how highly they were regarded as time progressed. It never felt to me back then that it was a novelty.

    Going back to the original question of is Kasdan overrated. I don't think anyone can under estimate the sum of the whole that went in to making these films. Everyone involved helped George Lucas get his vision on to the screen and not only that helped to refine it, improve it and get it as close to what he wanted it to be. It's annoying to read back over the usual suspects trying to downplay the role of those that were involved in the whole process because they are blinkered in their belief it's down to George and no one else. That's just not true IMO.
     
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  22. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 29, 2015
    SW a novelty niche franchise? LOL LOL LOL LOL..... like the Godfather? Heck, the Wizard of Oz is still super well known and that's a much less successful film than the original SW trilogy.
     
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  23. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Agreed.

    I don't know why anyone would downplay what they did.

    I certainly don't but merely point out that they could be replaced which is exactly the case.

    I don't see the problem with that.
     
  24. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    LOL, Vimes, Lobot, and Andy conveniently forgetting the lean years from the mid 80s to the mid 90s. Star Wars was still somewhat popular, but not like it had been or how it currently is. I can remember at that time there was hardly any mainstream SW products outside of a few novels aimed at nerd culture which was also more of a niche back then than now. I remember back then during those lean years, people hardly talked about SW, and many thought of it as old hat from the last decade. Lots of 80s stuff was considered uncool in the 90s, many of the kids of my age in the 90s disliked SW, or considered it out of style and uncool geeky stuff. In fact when Space Balls came out in 87, many critics complained it was too late to parody a old hat franchise like Star Wars was considered at that time. It wasn't all bad as there were enough diehard fans and the EU to keep the torch lit until SW began regaining popularity in the later 90s.


    If Lucas left in 84, Star Wars would likely end up as Back to the Future, a very fondly remembered but post peak franchise from the past similar to the Godfather series and even Ghostbusters. Other likely case, which imo is happening now, is when John Carpetner left the Halloween franchise and its quality took a deep nosedive despite maintaining popularity. Look at Jurassic Park, a hugely popular film in 93, yet the franchise popularity declined despite 2 sequels and a reboot a couple of years ago which gave it a boost, but no return to the original popularity of 93. Look at Avatar, the number 1 movie of 2009, after a couple of years nobody talks about it. There is now a little talk with the sequels finally being made as well as the new Animal Kingdom ride, this likely would not happen without the involvement of James. As for reboots, it is likely it could have happened to SW after 20 to 30 years as that is the amount of time it takes some old uncool thing to become cool again, or try to. Such as the 90s Lost in Space movie reboot which tried and failed. It was not until Batman Begins that made reboots really popular.

    Main point I am making is that you guys are treating that the current day climate also existed in the mid 80s to mid 90s. Having lived though that time period myself, I can tell you it was a very different time from today. Studios back then commonly ran most franchise for just a few years at best, then drop them for another. Long runners that spanned decades like James Bond were exceptions and not the norm, and far less common than today. Being a geek was very uncool and was considered weird.
     
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  25. GregMcP

    GregMcP Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2015
    Well, yeah, Star Wars could have reached its natural end after those Ewok movies.

    Lawrence Kasdan.
    The strength of The Force Awakens is it's characters. People can argue about whether the attack on Starkiller Base was kind of uninspired. He might not be the greatest action writer. I don't think he cared much about the story all that much in TFA. But he likes people. He makes them live.

    And I think that's what he gave to Star Wars in Empire. He created the Soap Opera. He gave the characters motivations and sexual tension and all of that.
    That's not saying it wasn't present in New Hope, but I think that he did that stuff well.

    And yeah, that's what fleshes out Raiders too. There were a good number of Raiders clone movies that followed, but they generally lacked that obscure "something". That extra dose of charisma and humanity. And sure, Harrison and Spielberg are a huge part of that.

    And obviously that's why he chose to do write the Han Solo movie. All for the character. The Story will be secondary. It'll all be about making you fall in love with Han and Lando.

    So... there.