Is the CT dragging down the overall quality of the saga?

What if you went home and your mother forgot how you liked your hot chocolate and she made a bad batch. You take a sip and, because your mother made it, you think it tastes great.

You see, that argument that your past memories taint your appreciation can be used to argue why people enjoy the inferior PT more or the same as the OT. Perhaps your fond memories of the past make you blind to the obvious flaws of something you "should like" because you liked the same thing before. Works both ways really.

However, instead of trying to get into the heads of millions of SW fans and generalising, we could just evaluate the films and not the fans.

 

Bashers taste better than Gushers.

Oops, I didn't realize we stopped using the hot cocoa analogy.

 

Perhaps your fond memories of the past make you blind to the obvious flaws of something you "should like" because you liked the same thing before.

Interestingly enough, you just argued that the prequels and originals are the same in terms of quality. This may be the first time I've ever said this in response to one of your posts, but I agree with you!

 

Not really. I finished saying: "However, instead of trying to get into the heads of millions of SW fans and generalising, we could just evaluate the films and not the fans."

I don't entirely agree with either option of perception determining quality. I think perception plays a part but if you are going to argue it determines 100% of quality then there is no use debating on these boards except, perhaps, to gather support to your cause.

 

Perhaps there *shock, horror* really is no particular reason or use for debating on these boards, other than it's a bit of fun.

 

I'm getting my jollies off reading this thread.

Good stuff!

Ooooohhhhh.....the irony.......

 

we could just evaluate the films and not the fans
Problem is, there are some fans who place too much value on THEIR "certain point of view" over that of everyone else's perspective. In short, I think while we should discuss the films' merits and flaws...we also should act as a balance point for some fans' "delusions of grandier"

I have to disagree with Go-Mer-Tonic's opinion:
the classic trilogy will at best, be remembered as "that mediocre sequel to one of the best trilogies of all time."
You're looking at the films from 2 DIFFERENT perspectives: their theatrical release date AND as the saga timeline. It is unfair to judge the special effects of ANH...vs AOTC released a quarter century later. Ask anyone in the industry, and they will say "Star Wars" (ANH) opened the world of special effects to levels never before imagined. Since then, GL has continued to develop the techniques of filmmaking to the point where almost ANYTHING is possible. And while i like SE, I feel GL should make every effort to preserve "Star Wars" for the groundbreaking work it was...26 years ago.
"Re-shooting" the OT is not the answer.

How logical is it that the 3 main characters end up playing the most important roles throughout the films?
When you look at it from the perspective that Luke/Han/Leia are who the story of OT is centered around (leading to the redemption of Anakin Skywalker), then it's understandable that they play a highly important role in the movie. Luke and Han aren't the most important generals in the Rebellion...however I do believe rescuing Princess Leia and carrying out the destruction of the DS warrant some measure of respect. Can this universe be any smaller?...that's the funny thing about life, no matter how complex you try to make things...the more the solution is something small.

 

Kudos to Go-Mer for starting a most brilliant thread.

 

unlike the plethora of constantly moving, jumping, wriggling, hopping, eating, wobbling, tripping, thrashing and distracting CG (foreground and background) creatures in the SEs and the PT? how you can say stop motion animators do this more than CG animators is truly mind-boggling

Boys you said it Dr E, We don't have to sit here and listen to this!

 

Is the CT dragging down the overall quality of the saga?

I wouldn't say the whole CT, but ROTJ is the worst in terms over overall quality.

 

Krash, you are a wiser man than I.

I foresee that you will become a great Jedi.

 

Wow, Gomer- I leave for a few months and you cause a LOT of problems

Now the funny thing of it is...this certian point of view is very valid. There are going to be characters, and people we are going to want to see what happens to if they survive Episode III.

I cannot see the destruction of Aldaraan without showing Bail Organia looking up into the sky. Certian Special Effects could be re-done I find the rubber Jabba to be far too stiff nowdays.

And I thourally enjoyed Lucas re-doing the orignal dogfights in Star Wars....perhaps something can be done for Endor and Hoth.

So far, the only change I dissagree with was Greedo shooting first. And if they can fix up the Jabba Han scene...that would be great.

 

A ridiculous question/assertion.

The CT has humanity/soul. It has good acting (I've seen no evidence to prove any of the assertions to the contrary). The characters come across as real, rounded, three-dimensional. The dialogue is one of the best things about the CT, and it's all excellently delivered. I suppose you would write a better line for its context than "That name no longer has any meaning for me" or "Let me look on you with my own eyes" or "No. You've failed, your Highness. I am a Jedi.."?

It wouldn't be nice to trash the PT too much, but it, on the other hand, lacks humanity, due to lesser quality of dialogue and acting. C3PO's puns in the arena in AOTC, Jake Lloyd's acting in TPM, and Jar Jar generally, make me cringe every time I see them. Nothing in the CT ever did that. Certainly the PT has more modern effects, more realistic sounds, creatures, etc. But the difference is not that important. As GL himself says, "Special effects are just a tool, a means of telling a story. A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing." The difference between the CT and perfect realism, is much less than the audience's ability to suspend disbelief. It looks real enough, especially if you're inclined to believe it. The PT looks better, but that doesn't make up for its other faults.

 

Is the CT dragging down the overall quality of the saga?

No, because OT is fine before PT was released.

But I'd definitely say PT adds so much depth and intelligence to OT, and enhances the whole saga to a new level.

 

Topic: Is the CT dragging down the overall quality of the saga?

I WISH it could

 

[The CT] has good acting (I've seen no evidence to prove any of the assertions to the contrary).

Harrison Ford.

Big piece of evidence. Brown-haired fellow, 'bout my height. Seen him?



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

I have to disagree with Go-Mer-Tonic's opinion:
the classic trilogy will at best, be remembered as "that mediocre sequel to one of the best trilogies of all time."
You're looking at the films from 2 DIFFERENT perspectives: their theatrical release date AND as the saga timeline. It is unfair to judge the special effects of ANH...vs AOTC released a quarter century later.

Exactly. The quality of special effects is not what ANH is remembered for long run, it is what got it noticed back in 1977, but the story is what got people in and has kept it legendary to this day.

Compare the visuals of Spartacus to Gladiator. Gladiator has vastly superior cinematography, over all, compared to Spartacus due to many advances in cinema art and technology over the last 35 years (though I still think Rome looked realer in Spartacus). However, this doesn't weaken Spartacus as a classic.

The same could be said for any number of old movies that are legendary (Gone with the Wind, Citizen Kane, Wizard of Oz, so on...).

What about 2001? Still a classic. Or Ben Hur with its little model wooden boats? Still a classic.

 

Yeah but in all those examples, the movies in question aren't supposed to be part of the same story.

With the SW films, the movies look great in the prequels, but when you get to ANH, it all looks unconvincing and fake.

And what about the acting? It just isn't up to par with the prequels so far. Sure you have Alec Guiness, but he is totally wasted, and doesn't get enough screentime. Harrison Ford is servicable and a loveable scoundrel, but midway through ESB and througout ROTJ, he looks lost. I blame Lucas. It's hard for an actor to have to perform in front of a blue screen, and if Lucas isn't giving him good enough direction, they won't know how they are supposed to act.

Then, there is the story. With the prequels, everything is so epic in scale. Then when you get to the classic trilogy, the ground battles are smaller, the lightsaber battles are not as well choreographed, and the space battles aren't always up to snuff with all those boxes that show up around each fighter. The only one that is really any good at all is the battle of Endor. But even that is dampened because Lucas always has to follow up a dramatic battle scene with a joke bit from the "lovable" ewoks.

I think Lucas is a good director now, but he just wasn't the same person back then. If he were to go back and re make the classic trilogy, he could apply everything he has learned since then, and turn out a batch of sequel movies that live up to the standard set by the prequels so far.

 

Go-Mer-Tonic: Though we've had some memorable clashes in the past, I respect you and what you've had to say over the years. Your argument about just being able to enjoy movies for what they are was actually leaning me towards your point of view a lot more. In that sense, the PT movies are fine; as long as you want great special effects, visual eye candy, and action, either PT film has more of that than several lesser summer blockbusters put together.

That said, I wouldn't be too proud of this faux OT-basher thread you've created. The problem is, you can make the case that the PT and OT are identical in quality all you want, that criticism of the PT is blind to the same flaws in the OT, and so on. In my opinion there is still one key element in the OT that the PT lacks: Heart. There is nothing you can say to convince a lot of us that the PT has any (and I noticed that you completely failed to address this issue in your big opening post). And without heart, or should I say 'emotional resonance,' you'd have a forgettable saga. Which is exactly what I think Star Wars would be if the OT were just like the PT.

Thankfully, the OT was made when Lucas still put heart and soul into his work. I just don't see that quality in the PT, and neither do many others. That is not to say I don't think he's working hard -- I see a huge amount of Lucas' interest in technology and special effects poured into the PT. But nothing more than that. Unlike the OT, when watching the PT I just don't believe for a second that Lucas truly loves the PT story or the characters in it.

But good luck with your own basher sanctuary!

 

"Harrison Ford.

Big piece of evidence. Brown-haired fellow, 'bout my height. Seen him?"

Why exactly? In Return of the Jedi, perhaps, but are you really saying his acting is bad in Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back? Crikey. Well, it takes all sorts to fill a forum.

 

Are you kidding me? The prequels have heart, it's the classic trilogy that doesn't. Everyone acts like a bunch of 2 dimensional characters with no depth in the first three movies.

In the prequels, when Anakin leaves his mother, you feel it in your gut. When Padme confesses her love for Anakin as they are about to be wheeled out into the arena, it wrenches your heart.

Name one scene in the classic trilogy that matches that kind of heart.

Just one.

 

I'll name 4:

1.When Obi-Wans voice says "Use the force Luke....let go!" and Luke turns off his targeting computer.
2."I am your father" "Nooooooooooo"
3. When Luke fights Vader in ROTJ.
4. Obi-Wans death.

 

I'll name 4:

1.When Obi-Wans voice says "Use the force Luke....let go!" and Luke turns off his targeting computer.
2."I am your father" "Nooooooooooo"
3. When Luke fights Vader in ROTJ.
4. Obi-Wans death.

 

You actually felt something during those scenes?

Unbelievable. There is no way you can convince me that those scenes had any heart at all. Let's just face it. Lucas just wasn't the same guy back then that he is now. He learned as he went, and the classic trilogy suffers the most from his learning curve.

Now it's time he takes the lessons he learned the hard way back then to create something more on the same level as the prequels.

 

"I'll name 4:

1.When Obi-Wans voice says "Use the force Luke....let go!" and Luke turns off his targeting computer.
2."I am your father" "Nooooooooooo"
3. When Luke fights Vader in ROTJ.
4. Obi-Wans death."

I'll try to deal with these individually before I discuss the main aspect of the thread.

1) When Obi-Wan says "Use the Force Luke....Let go, Luke", he's mearly telling him to use the Force instead of his targeting computer. If he would have said "Let go of your feelings, Luke. I have faith in you, my friend" or something that actually addressed his relationship with Luke, then it would've helped. The way it is now, I don't feel anything. I see it as a father teaching his injured son to walk, and when the kid does, he says,"okay, now let go of the crutches and walk with your feet" . Nothing, it's just a direct statement, with no feeling to it. But if you say,"okay my son, I have faith in you. I believe that you can walk to me!", it's immediately more satisfying, and "heart-filled", which is the case with the OT vs. PT(which, to me, is ridiculous, as it's a SAGA, but anyway....)

2)This is a great line, but I felt shock and disbelief instead of any good, heart-wrenching emotion. Not trying to take anything away from it, though.

3)That could have been so great, but the way it was executed was bad. The build-up when Vader taunts Luke is superb, and Luke's final "AHHHH" scream is good, but the music is not right, it's too monotone, and the choreography is pitiful(are they dueling or pillow-fighting?). If it included more screams and angry dialogue from Luke, it would've been amazing. But alas...

4)No feeling from Obi's death. Sure, he was a good character, but he died too early to demand any feelings. Yeah, it was nice that he sacrificed himself, but Luke got over it in about one minute(more time than with Owen/Beru's demise).


Overall, the OT is a good trilogy, but I love and treasure the PT far more. Oh, and I love Jar Jar!!