Is the Empire the real good guys?

I am not a big fan of dictatorships, but in some places it is the only goverment that works. The star wars universe may be one of these places. We often look at the star wars saga and compare it to the world we live in. In fact, Lucas has stated many times that he looked at democratic goverments that turned into dictatorships (Rome with Cesear, Germany with Hilter)while writing the star wars saga. Why did these goverments fail? The main reason they failed is they became weak and corrupt because senators, who are supposed to represent the people, had their own agenda, and that agenda was to gain more power and wealth. The old Republic in the PT is a perfect example of political corruption. The goverment was a disorganized mess, and Palpatine Knew it, in fact; he was a big part of the mess. It is easy to blame Palpatine, Cesear and Hitler for the collapse of democracy, but if we look real close we will see that the people wanted change. We have seen footage of thousands of germans cheering for Hilter in Munic, and we see the senate erupt with appluase as Palpatine annouces the formation of the Empire. What was life like for the average joe during the rule of the empire? Did he have a job? Billions of people probably had jobs at weapons factories and other empire directed jobs. There were probably millions of people who worked on the Death Stars. Were people safe during the rule of the empire? They may have feared the empire, but they may have somehow felt protected by it. They may not have any civil liberties, but they did have a job, , and protection as long as they followed the rules. Yes they lived in fear, but is that so bad? The Empire had to rule with fear it may be the only way to rule billions of people who can't get along. Remember in ATOC when Anakin stated that people "should be made to agree". What he said made some sense, and by the time of ROTS most of the galaxy agreed with him. After the fall of the Empire was the New Republic a better goverment for the regular gungan, toydarian, human or any other species? I am not so sure!

 

The Empire destroyed a planet, which is enough imo for them to no longer be the good guys.

 

http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/f20050126/indexp2.html

From the opening crawl of ANH:

"Having won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire...

From the opening crawl of TESB

Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a small band of freedom fighters..

"The evil lord Darth Vader..."

From the opening crawl of ROTJ:

"When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of rebels struggling to restore freedom to the galaxy..."

And pre-Yavin Luke would like to express his feelings on the Empire:

"It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it"

Pretty strong words for a guy (for another half hour or so, anyway) has no particular reason to be picking sides.

The Empire=the bad guys, antiquated political beliefs on freedom not working excluded.

 

The people were cheering in Munich? Of course they were, they would be shot if not!
Lots of people were employed under Hitler. Look at all the Jews - certainly had to work to do.
The Romans? I suppose few regimes have killed so many innocent people as they did. The Romans themselves were pretty well off with their aquaducts and everything, but what about all the other people?

If you live in perpetual fear you are reduced to a mere being. When you have no freedom, or the liberal rights of free speech you will wind up as an automaton - that's what happens in a totalitarian state such as the one presented in "Nineteen Eighy-Four"

Hitler killed all those who did not agree with him. Stalin did the same. Mao did the same. Ho Chi Minh did the same. Look at people in Burma today!!

I certainly hope this thread is ironic!

 

Ruling governments are often cyclic. They go from democracies to dictatorships, fall and become democracies again. This is nothing new, neither one seems to work. After awhile people get tired of bickering and corruption (and often times afraid of something) and hand thier freedom to a dictator to fix things. The absolute power of the dictatorship becomes corrupt and the people overthrow it.

In the case of the Empire, they didn't need to enslave whole races and destroy whole planets to restore peace and order to the Galaxy. So had they been a dictatorship, but done things differently then they might not have been the bad guys, but come on, those sobs were no good.

 

these reasons alone make it evil. A legitimate government should never have to rule out of fear, rather it should rule with the consent and mandate of the people.

 

I am not a big fan of dictatorships, but in some places it is the only goverment that works.

Hm How did you make that out?

 

Is anyone familiar with the Arrow's theorem in political theory? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow's_Theorem) -- Put in a nutshell, it pretty much amounts to the same ...

 

Exactly my thoughts. Everything in history is cyclic AND double-egded i ll add. Democracies become corrupt and often are the reason for a bloody war (pelloponesian war started from Athens etc), and dictatorships (not often though) can become beneficial for a while. But all come to peoples need for change (phenomenical change cause they change an old thing with another). I ll dare to say that for some average citizens maybe the Empire was better than the Old or the New unstable Republic. It depends their planet, their occupation and beliefs.

 

This thread is in no way my personal political views. I love the Republic and Democracy for that matter . I simply thought it would be a good topic for discussion.

 

I can say, from personal experience that living under a dictatorship is probably one of the worst experiences that can be endured. Coming from a country that was held in the grip of Communism for over half a century, I have to say that there are some small advantages, but those are far out-weighted by the disadvantages. Did people have stable jobs? Yes, they did, upon finishing high-school or college, everyone was automatically placed in a post. Were people safer? Yes and no - all threats were dealt with very quickly, but a great number of personal freedoms - such as the privacy of a simple phone call - were taken away from the average citizen.

As for the so-called threats, more often than not, they were just other people, who stood up to the regime and protested, demanding that the Declaration of Human Rights be respected - and for that many of them (including some members of my own family, which is the reason why I feel a very deep resentment toward all forms of totalitarianism) were imprisoned in utterly inhuman conditions, repeatedly subjected to both physical and psychological torture, in a 're-education program', after which, upon their eventual release, they were forced to sign an agreement with the state police, swearing to report other people with similar 'dangerous ways of thought'. To put it simply, if you were a little robot, doing your duty day and night, keeping your head down, groveling and licking the boots of the "All-Mighty-Comrade-Leader" , you were left alone. However, if you so much as dared to even laugh at the regime and someone reported you (there were many rats and stool-pigeons among us, in those dark days), you could expect anything ranging from a nice beating all the way to a death sentence. There was absolutely no freedom of movement, of speech, even of mind. We were all expected to think as one - no exceptions were allowed and terror was the main weapon that kept 22 million people in line for such a long time.

Of course, everything has an end - a very violent one, usually - and, as the Empire fell, under the strikes of the Rebel Alliance and the wrath of its own mistreated citizens, so did our dictatorship crumble, in a bloody revolution. My sig is actually an old, running joke around here - the constant regime of fear had turned everyone into frightened, weak beings, a flat mash that posed no danger... until, of course, it finally exploded, with destructive results.

I don't need anyone to tell me of the benefits of a 'good dictatorship' because I've spent the early years of my life under one and it is an experience that I truly do not wish upon any other being. It is, ultimately, utter degradation and destruction of the human spirit.

 

Well (putting all real world issues adside) the Rebels are basically terrorists. From the eyes of the average in-the-dark imperial citizen they are a bunch of left-wing militants who blast everything within 12 parsecs with their lasers.

 

They could be argued as terrorists, but largely that's because of Imperial propoganda. We never see the Rebels attack any civillian target, so it's arguable that they wouldn't fit the (common definition of the)terrorist label, but more of an insurgency. It is worth noting however that at least the EU has the Rebellion formally declaring war on the Empire, which would make them a...rebellion.

So I could see the Imperial propoganda/misinformed citizen of the Empire/Imperial loyalists saying that the Alliance to Restore the Republic is a terrorists organization, but I think that labeling them as a rebellion really is the most accurate word.

 

I have thought of this once. The Empire wants peace and order, and with a good leader at the helm, it could have been done. Instead, we have a Sith at the head. I don't know if Palpatine does anything after he declared himself as the Emperor, aside from just sitting on his throne, but I assume that once he was able to put himself at the head of the government without anyone to oust him from it, the "1000 years-long" mission the Sith Order has been waiting for to happen has been accomplished. How? Palpatine, since declaring himself the Emperor, has lied to the galactic citizens. He doesn't want peace and order. He wants people to be corrupted furthermore than what has been in the democratic Galactic Senate. He wants people to be more ruthless, he wants people fighting each other. He wants people to feel fear. What will wealth do to him? What will that throne do to him? Nothing. It's how people feel around under his leadership that what matters to him. Because Palpatine is a Sith, and he find pleasure through fear and anger.

 

He's complicit in the destruction of a planet, the dissolution of the Senate, and the oppression of the entire galaxy.

 

The Empire wants peace and order, and with a good leader at the helm, it could have been done.

The mistake lies in thinking there is any one regime to provide us with the right amount of everything, freedom, restriction and whatever else we consider a regime to prepare us with.

Regime is always regime. There's no getting away from that.

 

Politically, the Empire is really the good guy. They are being attacked by an insurgency that is destroying government property. Morally of course, the Empire is terribly evil.

 

So are you saying that politics are inherently immoral?

 

I never would have thought the Empire was even the lesser of two evils until I saw what the Republic was actually like in th PT. Now I do sympathize with Palpatine. Let me explain:

We see the Senate, its members include idiots like JarJar Binks. Do I want groups like this making decisions for me?

The Republic has no army. How will they protect me and my interests from enemies, either internal (like maybe the Trade Federation, Bankers' Guild, whatever) or external (alien)?

They sanction the Jedi order's living in luxury on my taxes. And the Jedi recruit by taking babies from their families and brainwashing them to follow a code which says that attachments are bad... attachments are what make us human!

The quasi-independant systems that make up the Republic have all kinds of ridicules political systems, like the elected child queens of Naboob. This is criminally stupid and I am with Palpatine when it comes to ending such practices. People stupid enough to "elect" 12 year olds to rule them do not deserve democracy and liberty.

The Republic allows slavery to go on unchecked. We do not here of economic sanctions against the Hutts or any resistance to the idea of slavery in the galaxy.

So, for all the problems with the Empire, it hardly sounds any worse than the Republic and at least the guy in charge is neither a moronic Gungan nor a minor.

 

Well typically Senators are elected, so apparently people did.

With the Jedi.

The Jedi have only the most basic of needs to serve the Republic. And they don't TAKE babies, babies are given up to them.

Democracy is democracy. People wanted Padme.

Right, because the Empire turned all that around.

 

My thoughts exactly Palpatine=Satan and reaching your goals with force and violence is JUST B.A.D. Basic morals mate

 

It was necessary in Chile with Pinochet, because the people were stupid enough to elect a Communist. So, Pinochet did the right thing and overthrough him, and killed all of his aides.

 

It was also necessary in Spain with Franco if you argue that way. Hitler was also necessary to revive the economic infrastructure of Germany, but that doesn't make things right. Many in Spain were actually content, even happy, with the situation under Franco. Some were content and happy living under the rule of the Ceasars of Rome, but such people are in a vast minority.

Communism is not bad in itself. It is a utopian ideal that would probably have worked out well if it had been followed according to what Marx and Engels wrote. You, as most are, are thinking about Stalin and Mao. The communists battling in Spain against the Fascist Franco were also fighting against the Staling communism. There are many sides to a story - seldom only two!

If the people elect someone YOU think is stupid it doesn't necessarily mean he is. If I think that my country's prime minister is a nut case that doesn't mean he is - it is just my subjective opinion about him. In either case you have to be willing to let the people decide what they want, and what they think is right. If only one man decides things will work out very well for him and his few followers, but it will work out very bad for those who do not follow him! That is what happened to the Empire in SW! The Republic was flawed, but you can't make it right by refusing people their liberties and freedom of speech!

 

Well typically Senators are elected, so apparently people did.

Not with binks lol from what you can see in the film, he is just there to represent the gungans (probably cause they wanted him off planet lol). And he is only in the senete later in the film because padme said so, not because of an election.

With the Jedi.

Again, no. What happens if a planet in the republic without an army (like the naboo) gets attacked. Some planets wont have a secret underwater race and an annoying 9 year old pilot to save them. What can the jedi do against a planet-wide invasion without help?

Democracy is democracy. People wanted Padme.

That dosnt change the fact that a society is electing 12 year olds to be in charge of a planet. You can apply the same statement to anyone elected today, dosnt mean they are fit fo the job. If enough people vote for you to lead them, you will, regardless of your political savvy. Sometimes democracy gets things wrong.

Right, because the Empire turned all that around.

In a way, yes. The empire turned the slavery and dodgy deals to its advantage. It used slaves, thus keeping some of the slave industry in check. And they also used bounty hunters, again in a way keeping an eye on what criminal orgainisations are doing.

The emperor is still evil, and the government is very wrong in some ways, but I have to agree with DarthPoppy, There was a lot more wrong and stupidness during the time of the republic than during the empire's rule. Dont forget, there are 20 years between ROTS and ANH in which the senete was still operational.

 

25,000 years of successful democracy to 20 years of a failed Empire speaks against that.