CT Is the original unaltered trilogy an alternate universe now?

Well being specific about it the Disney ST doesn't happen in Lucas' Star Wars timeline at all. We know that as Lucas has his own stories for the sequel trilogy.

In fact his own version of the past before and after the Star Wars Saga is different from Disney's own version which they call the Star Wars Skywalker Saga.

It's a very distinct delineation of Lucas' Star Wars TPM, AOTC, {TCW}, ROTS, ANH, TESB and ROTJ.

Absolutely. Those 3 movies are very specifically Episodes IV, V and VI. There are no other prequels that are I, II and III that exist to replace them. They tie into each other in terms of story, characters, motifs and every which way possible.

At best there are the slight incongruities like the Emperor seen in Empire or the Anakin ghost in Jedi who don't fit in but the characters that present is evident.

 

I think there's a possibility that Lucas considers Filoni's Disney work (i.e. Rebels and Mando) to be part of his universe.

 

Not sure what the EU has to do with anything. If you're questioning whether Lucas' own movies are tied into Lucas' own movies then the EU is completely out from the get go because his movies have nothing to do with the EU. The EU might have something to do with his movies but that is a one way relationship. They are based on his work. His work isn't based on theirs (though he could freely use or adapt it as he saw fit).

The same goes for stories like Solo, Rogue One or the Obi-Wan Kenobi or Andor series. They may or may not tie into Lucas movies but they have no effect. They are unnecessary for his saga.

I like Rogue One. It has good material but at the same time it fundamentally misunderstands the entire point of the Death Star's weakness both in story and thematically. Lucas' story is that the Empire thinks their "technological terror" is invincible. The idea that there is a weakness that can be found and exploited is ridiculous to them. That the Rebels got the plans and found one is something the Imperials couldn't find themselves or contemplate as possible until someone else's attack plans (the Rebels) were examined:

Commander #1 : We've analyzed their attack, sir, and there is a danger. Should I have your ship standing by?

Grand Moff Tarkin : Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances.

Rogue One should have limited itself to the stealing of the Death Star plans. It could even gone as far as saying that Erso found the weakness when studying the plans. Instead it made a point of saying that he "sabotaged" it even though that sabotage doesn't work either time the Death Star fired at a lower blast level on a planet (Jedha and Scarif) nor for the full blast on Alderaan.

The sabotage only worked when someone else (not Erso) came up with the plan of attack and executed it. Yet if we take R1 into account then the danger that the Imperials see in the Rebels attack should not be a danger at all by their analysis. The Imperials don't know that Erso sabotaged the reactor core. Their analysis is based on believing the Death Star is in no way compromised. There is no reason to as they've used it on multiple occasions by then. What kind of sabotage is there that allows a weapon to be used over and over again? The saboteur's sabotage is completely useless and has no effect unless someone else comes up with a plan that in itself is not based on knowing that said sabotage is even real!

I would doubt that but it's more likely that he looks on it favorably in comparison to anything else. Which is not to say that he didn't enjoy a Rogue One or a Solo but at least the teachings he passed onto his student have some reflection in these Favreau & Filoni-verse series.Lucas said Boba Fett escaped the Sarlacc Pit and that is what happens in The Mandalorian.

 

I am a 1-6 Saga fan, but I prefer the OOT versions. I like the OOT ROTJ with older Anakin (Sebastian Shaw) and love that Luke winks at the Anakin, Yoda and Obiwan (for some reason I will never understand that was taken out of the SE version). I respect fans who like the SE, as I just prefer the OOT.

 

Let me hear your thoughts on this. In ROGUE ONE, it is established that Galyn Erso sabotaged the Death Star's main reactor by making it explode into a supernova just by getting hit with a normal proton torpedo. Right? There's nothing special about proton torpedo's, right? They're not nuclear warheads, just regular explosives.

But this would imply that a normal, not sabotaged, reactor wouldn't explode from a proton torpedo blast. Right? So when the Empire made a second Death Star, did they accidentally build in the same design flaw? Instead of fixing the problem of a main reactor that explodes from normal ordinance, they just put a regulator next to it? That was their solution?

 

Can't say I recall exactly so let's look at it:

Relevant Death Star portions of the script:


Rogue One

We call it the Death Star. There is no better name. And the day is coming soon when it will be unleashed. I’ve placed a weakness deep within the system. A flaw so small and powerful, they’ll never find it.

Saw, the reactor module, that’s the key. That’s the place I’ve laid my trap. It’s well hidden and unstable, one blast to any part of it will destroy the entire station.

You’ll need the plans, the structural plans for the Death Star to find the reactor. I know there’s a complete engineering archive in the data vault at the Citadel Tower on Scarif. Any pressurized explosion to the reactor module will set off a chain reaction that will destroy the entire station...


A New Hope

The battle station is heavily shielded
and carries a firepower greater than
half the star fleet. It's defenses
are designed around a direct large-
scale assault. A small one-man fighter
should be able to penetrate the outer
defense.

Well, the Empire doesn't consider a
small one-man fighter to be any
threat, or they'd have a tighter
defense. An analysis of the plans
provided by Princess Leia has
demonstrated a weakness in the battle
station.

The approach will not be easy. You
are required to maneuver straight
down this trench and skim the surface
to this point. The target area is
only two meters wide. It's a small
thermal exhaust port, right below
the main port. The shaft leads
directly to the reactor system. A
precise hit will start a chain
reaction which should destroy the
station.

Only a precise hit will set up a
chain reaction. The shaft is ray-
shielded, so you'll have to use proton
torpedoes.

Yes, the implication from Rogue One is that a normal reactor would not explode from a proton torpedo blast. This is entirely incorrect as seen in the movies:


The Phantom Menace:

INT. NABOO STARFIGHTER - COCKPIT - SPACE
The SQUADRON attacks the space station.

RIC OLIE : Bravo flight...go for the central bridge.
BRAVO TWO : Roger, Bravo Leader.

The attack is fruitless.

RIC OLIE : Their deflector shield is too strong. We'll never get through
it.

Meanwhile, ANAKIN is being chased by another fighter. ARTOO shrieks.

ANAKIN : I know, Artoo! This isn't Podracing!

The enemy ship fires and hits ANAKIN's fighter, sending it into a spin.
ARTOO screams.

ANAKIN : (Cont'd) We're hit!

ANAKIN regains control as his ship enters the space station hanger.

...

ANAKIN flips a switch and the ship levitates, knocking over the BATTLE
DROID CAPTAIN. The OTHER DROIDS shoot, but the lasers are deflected by
ANAKIN's shields. ARTOO beeeps.

ANAKIN : (Cont'd) This should stop them.

ANAKIN fires lasers as the ship begins to rotate.

ANAKIN : (Cont'd) ...and take this!

He presses a button and launches two torpedos which miss the DROIDS.

ANAKIN : (Cont'd) Darn...I missed!

The two torpedos fly down a hallway and explode inside the reactor room.

ANAKIN : (Cont'd) Let's get out of here!

ANAKIN's ship roars through the hanger deck, bouncing over the DROIDS.

ANAKIN : (Cont'd) Now, this is Podracing! Whoopee!

INT. FEDERATION BATTLESHIP - BRIDGE
TEY HOW turns to CAPTAIN DOFINE.

TEY HOW : Sir, we're losing power... There is some problem with the main
reactor...
DOFINE : Impossible!! I don't...

The bridge explodes.

INT. NABOO FIGHTER - COCKPIT - SPACE
RIC OLIE watches in amazement as the Federation battleship starts to
explode from the inside out.

BRAVO TWO : What's that?? It's blowing up from the inside.
RIC OLIE : I don't know, we didn't hit it.
BRAVO THREE : Look! One of ours! Outta the main hold!!


Return of the Jedi:

124 INT REBEL STAR CRUISER - BRIDGE
Ackbar, sitting in his control chair, speaks into the radio.

ACKBAR
The shield is down! Commence attack on theDeath Star's main reactor.

LANDO
We're on our way. Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters follow me.
(laughs)
Told you they'd do it!

The Falcon, followed by several smaller Rebel fighters, heads toward
the unfinished superstructure of the Death Star.

126 EXT/INT - SPACE BATTLE - FIGHTER AND DEATH STAR
Rebel fighters follow the Falcon across the surface of the Death Star
to the unfinished portion, where they dive into the superstructure of
the giant battle station, followed by many TIE fighters.

WEDGE
I'm going in.

LANDO
Here goes nothing.

Three X-wings lead the chase through the ever-narrowing shaft, followed
by the Falcon and four other fighters, plus TIE fighters who
continually fire at the Rebels. Lights reflect off the pilot's faces as
they race through the dark shaft.

LANDO
Now lock onto the strongest power source. It should be the power
generator.

WEDGE
Form up. And stay alert. We could run out of space real fast.

The fighters and the Falcon race through the tunnel, still pursued by
the TIE fighters. One of the X-wings is hit from behind and explodes.

132 INT MILLENNIUM FALCON - COCKPIT AND GUN PORTS
Lando's crew fires away at the pursuing TIE fighters as the dashing
Baron of Bespin and his alien copilot home in on the main reactor
shaft. It is awesome. A lone X-wing is just in front of the Falcon.

WEDGE
There it is!

LANDO
All right, Wedge. Go for the power regulator on the north tower.

WEDGE
Copy, Gold Leader. I'm already on my way out.

The X-wing heads for the top of the huge reactor and fires several
proton torpedoes at the power regulator, causing a series of small
explosions.

The Falcon heads for the main reactor, and when it is dangerously
close, Lando fires the missiles, which shoot out of the Falcon with a
powerful roar, and hit directly at the center of the main reactor.

He maneuvers the Falcon out of the winding superstructure just ahead of
the continuing chain of explosions.

There is no design flaw in the reactors. If reactors get blasted they will go up. That is well established in ANH, ROTJ and TPM. Obviously neither the droid control ship reactor nor the second Death Star reactor were "sabotaged" the way Erso said the first Death Star reactor was in Rogue One. This explanation is presented as the reason why the reactor would explode and that it wouldn't otherwise. This is inconsistent with everything presented in the saga movies.

The design flaw for the Death Star in ANH is the following:

It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station.Only a precise hit will set up a chain reaction. The shaft is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes.

It's not the reactor but the shaft that leads to the reactor system that is the weak point. The even more particular weakness is that they ray-shield the shaft but didn't bother to proton torpedo shield it because as seen in ANH the only way that would be possible would be with a one-man fighter going down the trench, skimming the surface and firing at a target only two meters wide.

The reactors aren't the problem and never were. The problem was that a ship or ships were able to fire torpedoes into the reactors in the first place because the defenses they relied upon weren't as infallible as they thought they were. Anakin got past the shields in TPM, Lando and Wedge got into the Death Star because Han and the Rebels took the shield down and in ANH the Empire thought that ray-shielding was enough so they didn't need to bother with a proton torpedo shield as well.

All that Erso really needed to do in Rogue One was to find out where the Death Star plans were then send his message telling the Rebels where to get them so that the Rebels could examine them and find a weakness i.e. a way to blast the reactor. As per Lucas' movies actually getting to the reactor is the important part.

Rogue One adding in Erso "sabotaging" the reactor was completely unnecessary as would any sabotage of any kind because it misses the point that it's arrogance in the belief of their defenses being impregnable that is the problem. Their overconfidence is their weakness that is exploited.

What Rogue One is saying that is "The Empire was completely right in their confidence of their technological terror. It was unbeatable except for the purposeful sabotage by another." This is contrary to the the point made in ANH by none other than Darth Vader. "Don’t be too proud of this technological terror you’ve constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." and he is correct because it was Luke with the Force guided by Obi-Wan that made the shot that went straight down to the reactor and destroyed the Death Star.

How the makers of Rogue One missed that I don't know. Their story is that the Death Star was significant next to the power of the Force. The Force wouldn't have stopped the Death Star if not for the sabotage of the reactor. Luke's use of the Force only worked because of that sabotage. Otherwise he would have taken the shot and nothing would have happened andYavin IV would have been vaporized.

 

I dont understand how the OOT is all of a sudden not canon, considering that the differences between that and the SE are only effects and graphics.

Thank you. To me the point is moot since the general prequel outline in the early 80s was pretty darn close to what we actually got. Remarkably close when you consider that the trilogies were made out of order and decades apart.

 

Indeed. He always said as much.

 

And small changes in lines.

"You're lucky you don't taste very good" becoming "You were lucky to get out of there."
"Bring me my shuttle" becoming "Alert my star destroyer to prepare for my arrival"

And so on.

 

There were also dialog changes between the three different audio mixes shown in theaters in 1977. However, it was the mono mix, one of the ones shown in theaters that was created last, and after the theatrical run had already started, that Lucas considered the 'real' one. That specific mix has never had a home video release. Only the very first home video releases had one of the original theatrical mixes, but this was neither the first, nor the mono mix.

Unless you saw the film in a theater within a few weeks of it opening, you've never heard the original original soundtrack.

Empire Strikes Back also had something similar: The initial film prints were 20 seconds shorter and had different dialog than the more widely distributed "second edition" prints that were released to theaters in June of 1980. Same deal here, unless you saw it in the first few weeks you've never seen the original.

My point being this: despite the differences, there really aren't many glaring contradictions that at all effect the story in the different dialogs, if any. Choose which version you consider to be the "original" or "most canon" and roll with that.

 

in my head canon in this universe the original Prequels never happen

 

In my headcanon, the prequels are in-universe holodramas "inspired" by true events, widely derided by historians for being ridiculously romanticized and wildly inaccurate. Not to mention badly acted.

 

As R2 is the one who told the stories to the keeper of the Journal of the Whills then they all have the same validity. Which works really well because anything else anyone else said outside of that (ie Lucas) is not of the same validation and likely both ridiculous and wildly inaccurate.

So it works both in and out of universe.

The original prequels never did happen because Lucas changed them once he made Vader and Anakin the same person.

In terms of the writing the actual original prequels would have been a separate trilogy of their own that would not effect the number of The Adventures of Luke Skywalker Chapter One: A New Hope and Chapter Two: The Empire Strikes Back.

Once the change was made was when the two trilogies became directly interlinked hence Episode V The Empire Strikes Back.

 

Oh boy.

 

imo without the PT still the events of OT can still happen same thing about OT without Disney ST

 

As someone who likes the saga 1-9 and does not hate the SE but prefers the unaltered trilogy because they are versiions I grew up with and because I love 70s and 80s films in general and to me they were biggest and best of the era. It saddens me to say they unfortunately do seem to be some sort of alternative universe as Lucasfilm seem to unfortunately to not give them the justice they deserve and for me personally have given up hope that they will ever

 

This entirely true. But, IMO, the prequels feel more connected than than the ST. I can get my fill of Star Wars with EPs 1-6 and Rogue One. I can completely skip the sequels and miss nothing. Actually, from here on out I might just end it at the conclusion of ROTJ. Its over at that stage. The Skywalker saga has wrapped up at this point.

 

Why do people even care what is canon and what is not? I mean enjoy what you like and ignore the rest. The most important canon should be your own head canon.

 

i think Star wars was always about more than skywalkers.. just look how Boba fett became so popular when he was just a side character

 

I'll repeat that I do not believe the pre-Special Edition version of the Original Trilogy is NOT some alternate universe. All Lucas did in the SE was enhanced the special effects and made minor changes, which was his prerogative. I wish with all my heart that the Sequel Trilogy was some alternate universe of the Star Wars saga, but I know that it's not.