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Saga Is there any difference between ST and PT hate?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by darthfettus2015, Sep 1, 2020.

  1. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 15, 2012
    I love all star wars from the original in 77 to mandalorian and everything inbetween. (even trying to get into resistance) Im interested to know what people think is the difference between the vitriolic reactions to the PT and ST? Or even Ewoks if you like
    Any observations welcome. Ill be defending star wars like i did from the Lucas raped my childhood brigade in the noughties.
    StartCenterEnd likes this.
  2. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jul 9, 2016
    I think this video might anger your question

  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    We’re not having a thread intended to discuss other fans. I’ll welcome another reason this thread should remain open.

    @Bazinga'd @cubman987
    Erkan12 and cubman987 like this.
  4. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 20, 2015
    I think that most criticism towards the PT is aimed towards its execution, while the criticism towards the ST is towards its ideas and concepts. I agree with @anakinfansince1983 in that I don't see this thread going anywhere particularly good though. Not much to say on the topic.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  5. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Jul 29, 2016
    In my experience, the ST is largely criticized because of how it tore down established characters, namely the heroes of the OT. Their stories are unaffected in the PT. While some people criticize how Vader was treated, his arc is resolved the same with or without the PT. Not the case with the OT heroes in the ST.
  6. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 15, 2012
    Yes its probably to do with a mix of faster Internet and more 'fan' YouTube content and what happened to heroes who had been put on pedestals impossibly high. Its quite interesting to think a high percentage of those involved in making the films were either fans themselves or dyed by the cultural effects of the OT. Any of us who had got a job in the industry could've worked on them and probably would be proud of them. People have sweated blood sweat and tears over these things, all we have to do is buy a ticket and pretend its a Saturday morning matinee in a post war flea pit (Americans may have different names for small town traditional non multiplex cinema)
    This thread is not intended to be fan vs fan as I've hated that since 99, even 83. Understanding maybe??
    Also its easy to forget just how divisive the PT was, and how, on the whole, widely welcomed in the general populace, TFA was
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 25, 2003
    I think the difference between ST and PT hate boils down to a few pointed things:

    PT - the quality of the acting, something that is not really even mentioned with the ST
    ST - the lack of character development, something that IMO is one of the strengths of the PT
    PT - the CG quality, which obviously special effects nowadays are much improved. I will NOT get into the use of practical vs. CG, as both trilogies had a LOT of both-and that is fact.
    ST - the story/plot, which is again generally something that is (for the most part) enjoyed about the ST.

    To boil it down even further, I'd say the main biggest strengths each trilogy has over the other here is:

    PT - world building and character development
    ST - acting/scripting and special effects
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
    Emperor Ferus likes this.
  8. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 13, 2014
    Honestly, I don't think there is as much hate for either of those trilogies as people seem to think. There are too many people who believe being critical of something automatically equates to hatred. If your comments aren't all sunshine and roses in favor of their favorite trilogy, movie, character, etc., it's automatically classified as hate. Being critical is not hating on something. This is readily evident in each trilogies' boards, and it's starting to spread beyond the boards of each respective trilogy. And of course, you have to take into account those who go in to troll. It's not really hated of anything. It's just to get a rise out of those rabid followers who refuse to see anything wrong with their favorite.
  9. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jul 9, 2016
    I'd add that a lot of the more hot deep need frustration is always in the first few simmers for a bit until the new movies come out and then you see the shift.

    Like the trolls for trolls shape will go hate on those movies.

    For those who legit didn't like the movies maybe they like them more or at least the wounds are not as fresh and they've moved on

    And the generation that the Trilogy was meant for grew up and now they have stuff they like about it because that's all they know.
    darthfettus2015 likes this.
  10. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    May 18, 2017
    darthfettus2015 likes this.
  11. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Wacky Wednesday Winner star 7 VIP - Game Winner

    May 10, 2001
    I've always considered the ST to be born out of pure and crass commercial calculation, which isn't surprising because Disney is a big corporation and it wants to increase profits.
    When Lucas was making the PT, he was funding the movies out of his own pocket, and he was trying to stay true to his creative vision, even going about telling the story in ways that may not have been the most commercial decisions and he wasn't trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. He did need them to be the biggest hit ever, he was happy just to break even on the movies and maybe make a few bucks from the merchandising.
    Not every filmmaker can afford to make his own self-financed $100m movies and buck many of the movie expectations of the average moviegoer, trying to achieve something more unique and unexpected.

    The difference in reactions is due largely to the different motivating factors behind each trilogy.
  12. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 15, 2012
    Maybe the ST was born out of Lucas wanting to continue the story but not feeling it up to it emotionally. The PT and the reaction to it really hurt him i think
  13. DartJackson

    DartJackson Jedi Youngling star 1

    Aug 26, 2020
    I think prequels are more likely to be disliked for specific things like acting, directing or "unfortunate" characters. But claims, as a rule, are not conceptual in nature (forget about midi-chlorians).

    Sequels don't like it conceptually. For their excessive reliance on OT, but at the same time destroying everything old.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
    Emperor Ferus likes this.
  14. Bee Bee

    Bee Bee Jedi Knight star 2

    Dec 23, 2015
    My exposure to the SW fandom mostly comes from these boards so take these observations for what they are...
    I've noticed a trend where fans that hold the PT in high regard are likely to be more critical of the ST compared to fans of the OT (particularly those that disliked the PT).
    Another note: In all the movie rankings lists I've seen, a common trend is this: if a person has a prequel in their top 3, their bottom movie will most likely be a ST movie. On the other hand, if they have a sequel in their top 3, their bottom movie is most likely a PT movie.

    One more observation: An interesting distinction between arguments against the PT and ST lie in the attitude towards George Lucas. I've heard many times that people who hated the PT blamed Lucas for "ruining SW". Many dissenters felt that Lucas had too much unrestrained control of the movies at that point and that the PT's shortcomings were due to Lucas' own limitations as a writer and director. On the flip side, people who hated the ST often blamed Disney for getting rid of Lucas' vision. They were disappointed in the change from a story driven by one man's vision to a story driven by a corporate committee which seemed to lack focus and narrative coherency as a result.
  15. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 13, 2014
    And one thing I forgot to add to my initial comment. Too many take any level of dislike as a personal insult. This fuels the belief that anything negative is automatically hatred of their favorites. There is nothing wrong with being passionate about the things you like, but when you take constructive, or even abject criticism as a personal insult, you've gone beyond fandom and into a level of obsession.
  16. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

    Aug 11, 2019
    I don't know why some fans disliked either the PT or the ST or both. Hell, I don't even know why some people dislike the OT. I know what my feelings are regarding the trilogies. But I have already made my feelings clear on several occasions.
  17. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 13, 2014
    Probably because not everything appeals to every person. Being a part of the Star Wars fandom does not mean one has to automatically like every piece of content created under the Star Wars banner. For example, I did not like Rebels at all. Couple of solid characters that could have been worlds better, and a few nice moments out of four seasons of shows was not enough to make me like the show. Yet, there are those out there who loved Rebels. Star Wars is not one size fits all.
  18. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jul 9, 2016
    Try being a EU Fan where ever new book series "Ruined Star Wars"

    The New Jedi Order Series "Ruined" Star Wars

    The Legacy of the Force stories "Ruined" Star Wars

    The Fate of the Jedi Series "Ruined Star Wars"

    Star Wars been getting "Ruined" since 1980 when they decided to make a sequel to it.
  19. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 15, 2012
    Ive only ever read the wild space books to my son.. Never read the books even tho im a big reader as always felt that it was a story in film medium.. Also did Lucas not say thdy weren't Canon at some point and not his sequel choice?
  20. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Mar 9, 2001
    I'm not sure if I would agree with that. There wasn't just some criticism against Anakin/Vader, there was a ton of it. And it hit other characters like Yoda and Obi Wan as well, though not nearly as much.

    The talk about how Anakin should never have been that young in Episode I, him being a "young kid that shouts yippie", being a "whiny teenager" in AOTC, or Vader's "noooooo" when Palpatine told him that he killed Padme. That character got lambasted throughout the entire trilogy, as were the actors who played him. There was more than enough talk about the trilogy "ruining" Vader. Not that I would agree with it, but it did happen to a severe extend.

    It's not like people can only cast aside a beginning, they can do the same with the end. Ignoring Episodes I-III because you didn't like what was going on, isn't any different than ignoring VII-IX for the same reason. The OT works all on its own, just like the story still functions when you take just I-VI or IV-IX.

    In general, I don't think there is much difference between the hatred aimed at any parts of the saga. There might be minor differences in what specific criticisms were about, but in general, I think the actual hatred (not criticism itself) comes more from a possessive kind of thinking from people who somehow think Star Wars belongs to them and that it should be exactly how they want it to be, ignoring that there are other fans who might think differently. That kind of thinking isn't necessarily aimed at A, B and C being wrong for reasons X, Y and Z, but more a general feeling of things "not being right". You could pick exactly the same issue from one set of movies that were deemed good by said person and one set of movies that was deemed bad, and somehow it is perfectly fine in the former but the reason why everything sucks in the latter. At that point you realize that it isn't really about those issues.
  21. Ubraniff Zalkaz

    Ubraniff Zalkaz Jedi Master star 4

    Feb 26, 2014
    With each new trilogy or show I like to act like I’m a new fan going in with a clean slate. I feel like that opens me up to just enjoying the moment.
  22. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 13, 2014
    For the movies, I make sure to be spoiler free. I hate spoilers. I love going in blind and being surprised by each and every movement through the movie. I prefer to work through my emotions as the movie progresses. I used second, third, etc. viewings to attach to my head canon.
    Ubraniff Zalkaz likes this.
  23. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Jan 3, 2013
    I'd take this one step further and say that it's honestly pretty much the case with all organized "hatedoms" on the internet, not just Star Wars. Not to say that the internet can't be a source for legitimate criticism - it very much can - but I think the way it tends to make it easy for people to form these little personal niches can lead to reinforcement and perceived validation of that warped/possessive attitude towards a work of fiction.

    (I do legitimately think the prequel hatedom had a very strong formative influence on everything after it, but that's a subject for an entirely different thread.)
  24. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Padawan star 1

    Sep 9, 2020
    I kinda feel that prequel hatred group just made nitpicking products and movies much cooler.And as a result made internet much more toxic.

    Since lots of prequel criticism that I see on the internet are just nit picking.
    "Prequels have politic scenes."
    "Why Obi Wan and Qui Gon didn't just murder everyone on the trade federation ship ?"
    "Why the lightsaber fights aren't realistic like OT?"(Which is funny since real sword fights are like fencing which aren't cool to see in a movie.)
    "Jar Jar is bad"
    "movies have too much dialogue"
    "Why Anakin doesn't behave the way that I imagined he would behave at his youth ?"

    I also hate the meme culture that just loves to turn every dialogue of prequel into a joke.
  25. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Knight star 3

    Oct 24, 2019
    I guess I can't speak for the internet as a whole but I've always viewed the existence of "prequel memes" as a positive reflection on the dialogue in those movies. The prequels are full of lines that are fun to quote, and having fun is the core of what Star Wars is about to me. Even when the story revolves around a devastating loss on a galactic scale for the good guys with some child murder thrown in, there's still room for some lighthearted Obi-Wan antics for example. In other words I've always seen the memes as laughing with the prequels, not at the prequels.