Is This a Potential Plot Hole in AOTC?

I posted this in another thread but wnated to openup the question to the whole AOTC forum:

Why do the Jedi would not suspect something is afoul when the clones being used for the Republic army were made using Jango Fett, who the Jedi know tried to assasinate Padme and kill Obi Wan (several times!!). That alone should have alerted them to some double-dealing or evil lurking. Then they find out the clones were ordered by Sifo-Dyas, a dead jedi, who the Kaminoans think is the Master of all Jedi. Clearly a lie. Couple this with a re-emergence of the Sith and a conspiracy is brewing.

Here is what the Jedi know at the end of AOTC:

Jango Fett is the template for the clones.

Jango Fett is the assassin who tried to kill Padme several times. He also tried to kill Obi Wan.

The clones were ordered 10 years ago. Sifo-Dyas, the supposed Jedi who ?ordered? the Clones, was killed 10 years ago and the Jedi know someone used his name to order the clones. Count Dooku, who the Jedi know was dabbling in the dark side, left the Jedi Order, 10 years ago. The Sith, the arch-enemy of the Jedi who have not been seen in 1000 years, happened to have re-emerged 10 years ago. Also the Jedi know either a Sith Master or apprentice was killed 10 years ago (Darth Maul) thus leaving a job opening in the order of 2. Palpatine also became chancellor, 10 years ago. Oh and one more thing, the Chosen One just happened to have been discovered 10 years ago.

Now fast forward to the present. You have Dooku working with the CIS, who have a droid army, that can clearly be used for war. The Senate is debating a Military Creation Act, coincidentally. It just so happens that the Jango fett-based clones are ready at the time of the battle of Geonosis. Is this not enough coincidences to figure that something is terribly wrong with these clones?? They're just here and paid for waiting for the Jedi to take?
And where are the clones produced?? Kamino. The one system not showing up in the Jedi
archives. Only a Jedi could have access to erase them from the system. Come on...it's Dooku!

The idea that someone in this CIS, Republic clone /droid conflict is on both sides is all over the place. The clincher is seeing Jango fleeing to Geonosis! Why would he be going here unless if he was working with Dooku? Jango led Obi Wan to Geonosis on purpose so the other Jedi would follow and fall into Dooku?s trap. The Jedi know this by the time the battle starts. How else could Dooku have been so prepared? Then to top it off, we see Dooku and Jango together in the VIP box. Now we know they are in cahoots which means someone is orchestrating this phony war. Additionally, any good detective will look at a crime and examine who has benefited from all of this?? In this situation it?s 3 parties: Dooku, Palpatine and the Kaminoans. The investigation starts here.

Even if that is not enough, Dooku confirms he is a Sith (says he has learned the dark side for 10 years...uses red saber, shoots lightning..etc..) and even tells Obi Wan that the Senate is being controled by the Sith! Assuming Obi Wan does not believe him, the mystery can still be solved. It does not matter who "Tyrannus" is. It does not really matter who personally ordered the clones. Before the movie even ends the Jedi know that the clones were ordered by an evil party, most likely the Sith and the entire Clone War is a fake war being planned by the Sith with help from the Senate. Once you know the Clones are corrupted (as if having Jango?s the assassin?s face was not enough of a clue), you know the war is fake. The bad guys ordered the good guy?s army!!

I have said this before in different threads and I only repeat it because I think it is a huge hole in the movie. The mystery is solved. The Jedi should never fight the Clone War. It's clear the clones were a set-up by their enemies and that the war is fake.

 

It is reasonable for the Jedi to assume that the ordering of the clones and the assasination attempts were completely seperate (This could actually be the case) and that Jango was chosen for both tasks because he was probably the best bounty hunter in the galaxy.

As for saying the Jedi should not have fought the clone wars. Thats the whole point!

 

Remember when OB1 is looking for kamino in the archide and he finds there is a gravitational pull where kamino should be, but there is nothing there as it was eraesed and he has to go ask yoda why is that and everything is so stupidly obvius, so much that made me loose a lot of respect for OB? and a little kid tells him what should be crystal clear? well I think that's it exactly.

The reason of why even with all of the above reasons which you stated the Jedi go and joing the clone wars is because they are kind of dumb, they don't realize this obvius things except of Yoda of course.

I think kind of like the Jedi had become by then so lame, like Yoda said they are in some kind of decadence cause they are over confident and they no loger have so much ability with the force, that is why they don't see it coming (the whole sith conspiracy succes) and is part of why everything happened (the extermination of all jedi except of Yoda and OB1).

You can clearly see that George Lucas thinks this way when you see the scene at the ending of AOTC where OB1 and Mace say that if it wasn't for the clones there would not have been any victory and Yoda is the only one who thinks as you do that it is more than obvius that the clone wars is not something good. So GL kind of makes a statement with that about the old republic jedi becoming very naive.

 

GDS this is what Padme said.

Padme: I think that Dooku was behind it. Key words I think

She did not say I know Dooku is trying to kill me. She siad I think. There is a big diffrenc in the words I think and I know.

Also later when she was talking with Obi-wan and Anakin.

Padme: I want to kow who is trying to kill me.

Also some one told her it could be Dooku. Again she was only guessing.

 

I agree entirely with sergejg.

One of my first comments after seeing AOTC was that the noble jedi order has fallen a few steps down from the pedestal we have held them to. Much like Americans over the last few decades, the Jedi and the Republic became lax in their practices and preperations.

Look at the current state of military build up America is experiencing after the events of last year; and to think we grew that lax less than a decade after our last war. Imagine what it would be like if our protectors enjoyed 1000 years of relative peace and prosperity. The Jedi and the Republic were caught completely off guard and were not prepared to deal with the Sith/CIS.

One of the things I am curious about in the grand Star Wars picture is whether or not the Rebellion spawns from what is left of the CIS, which would serve as the ultimate irony when they overthrow Palpatine, as he was insturmental in the founding of the CIS.

I certainly agree that Yoda seems to know more about what is going on. He withheld information from Mace (hearing Qui-Gon) and did not want the Senate to know of their inability to use the force as effectively. Yoda knows more than he is sharing publicly, even with the audience. I suspect that withholding this information will both lead to his exile on Dagobah, rather than instructing Luke from birth, and save the lives of characters that play key roles in the OT. (Luke, Leia, Obi, Bail, etc.)

 

"The bad guys ordered the good guy?s army!! "

True but at the time they couldn't worry about that. They still needed the clones help.

 

Exactly. They needed the army to survive at the time. They knew the order for the clones wasn't on the up and up, but there was littley they could do about it at that point.
At the moment Mace may have just thought Dooku hired Jango for some muscle, afterall a Bounty Hunter can be hired. It wasn't until the end of the movie that Dooku showed he was most likely a Sith So only after the opening battle of the Clone Wars would it be clear he is Tyranus. Besides, it's not even entirely clear the person who recruited the template would be the person who placed the order, though that's quite likely.
Anyway, Palpy is in charge of the Clone Wars, not the Jedi. They don't have any power in stopping them since they don't yet realize Palpy is the big evil mastermind.

 

Don't confuse a plot hole with the plot...

 

Unless this all ties in with the Jedi turning against Palpatine in Episode III (which I think is likely) then if it's not an actual plot hole, it's certainly a THIN area in the plot.

 

In AOTC, the Jedi couldn't afford to look a gift clone in the mouth.

IMO, as soon as they can, they will find out Palpy's behind everything and then turn against him. He declares them traitors. (Or he preempts them and blames them for creating the clones and still calls them traitors). Either way, Jedis=fodder.

 

GDS...thank you for taking what I was attempting to say here http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=8904435&replies=12
and putting it into english.
However, I do not think it is a plot hole, I lean more towards it being a sign that although the clues are right in front of their noses, the Jedi can not see it, thus they are losing their abilities. Also, this is the part of the movie that made me think the most, yet it has barely been talked about in these forums. So maybe it is not as obvious to all, including the Jedi apparently.

 

Green_Destiny_Sword said "The bad guys ordered the good guy?s army!!" Which is and isn't true considering that the armys are one and the same! I mean sure there are other people on both sides but the main part of the 'armys' are the same.

It's also clear to see that Palpy is the head of both the 'good' and 'bad' armys. He is the Sith Lord, (why the Jedi can't figure that out is anyone's guess) but he is also the head of the Senate (AKA the good guys).

He can 'anticipate' just what the 'other side' is going to do. He's controlling the whole thing just as if he was playing himself in a chess game. He KNOWS what the other side is going to do, because he IS the other side!

And even though the clones are 'fighting' for the Republic, Palpy is their real master so he can have them fight on either side. The clones are pretty much mindless, physical copies of Jango. They have no sence of right or wrong and they just do whatever they're told to do.

Not to mention the fact that from the way they we're dressed at the end of AOTC, we now know were they Storm Troopers came from and why they're all identical. Because, hello, Clones = Storm Troopers! And then there are Palpy's guards (you know the ones dressed in red that you barely see) who look very much like the Emperor's Royal Guards in the OT!


I also agree with sergejg who said that "the Jedi had become by then so lame, like Yoda said they are in some kind of decadence cause they are over confident and they no loger have so much ability with the force, that is why they don't see it coming (the whole sith conspiracy succes) and is part of why everything happened (the extermination of all jedi except of Yoda and OB1)."

Because of the fact that the Jedi were letting down their guard (after Maul got killed and there was no more attacks for 10 years) when they should have been looking for the other Sith. They knew there had to be two Sith because there always is two and only two. And Yoda even said that they didn't know if they had gotten the Master or the Apprentice at the end of TPM. And it doesn't even matter which one it was because they should have been looking for the other half of the tag-team.

But I have a question for Patrick Russell... Who said that the Jedi turn against Palpatine in Ep3? For all we know(and everyone in the SWU, for that matter) Palpatine gets 'killed' by one of the 'bad' guys which leaves a huge hole in the chain of command in the Senate and while they're trying to figure out who should lead, the Emperor just stepped in with one huge final attack and took over! Besides, and correct me if I'm wrong which I very well might be, there was nothing in the OT that suggested that they knew that Palpy and the Emperor were one and the same.

 

Just because the clones *looked* like Jango doesn't mean that they behaved like Jango. They were genetically altered, remember, so they were obedient and less agressive than Jango/Boba.

Still, yes, the clones were ordered to serve the Republic, but it's easy to tell that it was set up because Dooku/Tyranus told Sidious that the clone wars had begun.

GO 'CLONES!

 

Sorry to beat a dead bantha, but I don't think the Stormtroopers are clones themselves.
I beleive that the Clone troopers, much like the clone transport ships, are just just to show us the visual direction that the republic is heading in.
Obviously to show that the future doesn't look too bright. Plus the use of the sunset was pretty cool.
For those of you not film literate, it was arguably used to show the sun "going down on the republic".
Wait, that sounded dirty...

 

I too wondered how the Jedi could have this set onto their table and STILL not see what the hell is going on. And, maybe it does have something to do with their touch with the Force diminishing. Of course you could say "but without their powers, a normal man should be able to piece something together", but hear me out.

The Jedi are trained from birth to feel the Force around them, to recognize what it is telling them to do i.e. the Will of the Force. The Force is stronger than a normal man's "sixth sense" or our own gut feelings that we, as normal people, get from time to time. The Jedi, being in such contact with the Force, being as sensitive as they are to it will experiance these hyper-sensitive gut feelings, for lack of a better term, a lot. In combat, dire situations, negotiations anything. And they will be accustomed to it such that when the Force tells them to do something, they'll do their best to carry it out. Conversely, when the Force doesn't tell them anything, they accept that as well. And therein lies the rub.
The Force is getting weaker, and their connection to it is getting less and less. Like a garbled radio signal that only the strongest receiver can decipher(Yoda, of course, being the 2nd strongest receiver). So, the Force cannot tell them as much as it needs to, it is getting weak. The Jedi, in the majority, don't see this, why? Because 1) they never heard of this occuring more than likely and 2), the point I am driving at, is that they are so accustomed to being connected to the Force they way they used to, that when the Force diminishes, they don't know how to handle it. All their training which is ALWAYS involved with their connectin to the Force, not to mention their 6 senses (the sixth being the Force, of course), will be diminished as well. Their combat prowess, hypnotic suggestions, in negotiations, hearing the Will of the Force to guide their hand and HELP them to succeed in ALL their doings will practically come to nil. They would become fish out of water, and Palpatine will be right there to put them in the barrel.

Their training will come to less and less aide as the dark side grows. Which means that the Jedi death count will rise substantially and their negotiations will not succeed as much as in the past, their credence will falter and their reputation tarnished. Though I do not kbelieve the Force will be totally removed from them, it will be such that it hurts their efforts and blackens their names in the public's eyes.

Ciou-See the Sig

 

Why do the Jedi would not suspect something is afoul

It is never said that the Jedi don't suspect something. But since they need the clones, they make use of them. I'm sure they have suspicions, but they don't have time to stop and ask questions.

 

It's like the old saying, "shoot first and ask questions later."

 

First, I agree with everyone who said that the Jedi are losing their abilities/connection to the force. That seems relatively clear.

As to whether or not they know how the clones and how the clone army came about, we have to understand that a galactic war has broken out and the Republic needs an army. This army, supposedly made for the Republic is waiting there and they really have to use it to protect the Republic.

What we don't see is what goes on in the subsequent weeks. The JC could have recognized this problem and began an investigation.

In regards to Palpy/Sidious, we know several things need to happen in the next few years: a great Clone war that will wipe out many Jedi in the battles; Palpatine will acquire more and more power from the corrupt Senate; and the Clone Army has to be victorious. Once these things occur, then he can look at the remaining Jedi, frame a scandal on them, and take them out. All the while courting young Skywalker, filling his mind with lies and misdirections and perhaps setup several "incidents" that will create so much pain in him that he can transform it into tremendous hatred.

But in all, I don't see it as much of a plot hole because the entire galaxy is in chaos and rarely can you do logical things in chaos.

 

Palpatine IS the Emperor.
Whether Darth Sideous 'replaces' him 'on the sly' is another question.
Having Palpatine openly murdered would basically destroy the whole point of TPM & AOTC.

Everything is orchestrated to get Palpatine more power.

Now, back to the topic.......

First, Jango made exactly 0 attempts on Padme's life. He hired Zam to do it.

Now, at what point does it become clear that Dooku is even possibly connected to the Clones, and to who does it become clear?

Obi-Wan & NOBODY else.
Why?

Because he's the only one who's seen Jango Fett & then seen Jango with Count Dooku.

And, nobody has been talking to Obi-Wan until after the battle on Geonosis.....

At that point, yes, OB1 should say "Master Windu, you know the guy in the Arena who's head you chopped off?"

Mace: "Yeah, he was the guy who was with the leaders of the Seperatists & tried to set me on fire - it really burned me up, so I beheaded him. Why?"

OB1: "Funny, but he was the bounty hunter I traced to Kamino & was also the 'template' for the Clone Army."

Mace: "Get outta town! Are you serious?"

OB1: "Yes, Master."

Mace: "So, he may be in cahoots with Count Dooku."

Yoda: "Hard to see, the dark side is."

Now, nobody besides OB1 has heard or seen anything to connect Count Dooku in any way with the Clone Army up until this hypothetical point......

What do the Jedi know?

1. 'Sif-Dyas' allegedly ordered the clones for the Republic.

2. The genetic donor for the clones is a bounty hunter out to kill Padme, says he was hired by a "man named Tarannus on the moons of Bogdon." & then is seen with Count Dooku.

If anything, the way things are laid out isn't going to lead the Jedi to Palpatine, it's going to make them think either Count Dooku or Jango Fett is the guy playing both sides against each other.
They may even come to the conclusion, based on Dooku's former high standing among the Jedi, that he is the Sith Lord, not the apprentice.

So, if the Jedi confront Palpatine, he'll say "Huh? What are you talking about? You guys ordered the clones & now deny it."

Then, the Jedi get branded as enemies of the state and/or 'warmongers'.......

 

All of that doesn't qualify as a plot hole. It's just further evidence that the Jedi are incredibly stupid.

I honestly wouldn't be suprised if, in Episode 3, the Jedi get wiped out by a bomb hidden in a birthday cake sent to the Jedi Temple by Darth Sidious.

 

I honestly wouldn't be suprised if, in Episode 3, the Jedi get wiped out by a bomb hidden in a birthday cake sent to the Jedi Temple by Darth Sidious.

Perhaps strapped to the body of Yaddle for Yoda's birthday...Happy Birthday, Mr. Jedi Master

 

Ok. Trying to digest this topic. The clones come in and save the jedi on Genosis (SP?). Why does this lead to a war? They get the surviving jedi out, get the battle droids on the run. It's an assumption, but afterwards they all return to Courasant (can I spell?) so at the end of the movie, where are all those clones going? Are there other jedi to go save? Are the Separatists so upset that about what the clones did on Genosis, they are revolting on their planets so the clones have to go restore order? I guess I'm a little confused.

Also, I agree with the post that I don't think the stormtroopers are clones. I think they needed the clones in AOTC, but once the Empire gets established I figured it was like joining the military. Again, my 2 cents.

 

Great work Green_Destiny_Sword, I cannot necessarily agree that this is a plot hole, but if nothing else within the story it really makes the Jedi look extremely inept given the powers they possess.

I don't know if I really like this idea of making the Jedi seem that they were so weak and blind that contributed greatly to their demise; but Lucas had to devise reasons that led to their fall, and so I guess by bringing their fall through their inability to use the Force, to see the unfolding events. The irony is that the Jedi use the light side of the Force. The "light" represents being able to see. The Force is where a Jedi gets his power. If they are unable to use this power to see, then of course they are in a greater darkness than the the dark side itself.

And then of course there is the dark side itself that is "clouding" the Jedi's ability to see.

The Sith's greatest advantage is that the Jedi believed they were extinct and of course with this the Jedi would not be looking for any major evil workings to be going on under their noses. Then there is the apparent pride of the Jedi and that they believe nothing could get by them.

Remember these words from Mace in TPM, "I don't think the Sith could have return without us knowing"

Then in AOTC, when Dooku tells Obi-Wan about a Sith Lord named Sidious controlling the Senate, Obi-Wan responds by saying that the Jedi Council would know.

But Yoda's own words sum it when he and Mace are discussing the creation of the clone army. "Blind we are in not seeing the creation of this clone army" Something like this he said!

Nevertheless, though the Jedi have all the evidence you listed, they are unable to see what has happened and is happening. I do however think that Yoda knows more than he is saying.

One last thing though. Even if the Jedi fully knew that this war is phony, they really have no choice but to fight in it. If they refuse to fight, this would be taken as rebellion on their parts, in that though there is a clone army to fight, the Jedi are still considered the Guardians of Peace in the galaxy so they must play some role in this war. Or by not fighting, this would look real suspicious and could be labeled they are part of some conspiracy especially in light of the clones supposedly being ordered by the Jedi order.

Palpatine and Dooku know the perimeters of the Jedi's power and authority int he Republic, and they are actually using this against them to help bring their end, as well as the Jedi's own inability to see things through the Force.


Darth Sin

 

Green_Destiny_Sword, here is my response copied from the thread in which you initially asked these questions:

The Jedi do know that something is going on, but they're still aren't exactly sure what it is. They're starting to get the inkling that the Sith may be a lot more involved with the Republic than they at first suspected. Yes, they know that Jango is the clone template, but they didn't really have time to dig into that before all hell broke loose.

It's easy to see that Palpatine is the one who ulitmately benefits from the orchestrated war, but at the same time, he is obviously a very popular and powerful politician. Would the Republic Senate really listen to the Jedi if they were to accuse him of corruption, especially if they lack sufficient evidence to prove their case?

There's also the simple matter that the Jedi are starting to fall from grace as it were. There are signs of bickering among the Jedi, disagreement, and their reputation with the general populace isn't what it used to be (notice that nobody in the outlander club seems all that impressed with the Jedi in their midst). This would give the words of the Jedi even less credibility in the minds of the people, especially if they tried to politically attack someone as well-liked as ol' Palps.

The bottom line: just because you're suspicious doesn't mean the evidence will be easy to find or the jury easy to convince. This is the boat the Jedi find themselves in!

 

We need to remember that after 1000 years of dissconnecting themselves from the normal ebb and flow of human emotions - most Jedi haven't ever been homesick for more than the temple, few have married - few have ties to a home planet - they can be cast as the aloof and PROUD (what goes before a fall?) This does not seem a hole to me - as we can see the whole story and the Jedi can only see a piece at a time. I think that there won't be that many Jedi left for Vader to "exterminate" I'm sure George has quite a few tricks up his sleeve
and we'll all leave the theatre in tears....
reb