Is This a Potential Plot Hole in AOTC?

Considering the wealth of excellent answers in this thread, we should re-title it, "People will complain about anything they haven't taken the time to understand!"

 

Or maybe we should retitle it "How long will it take Durwood to come here and make an insulting post?"

 

>>>>Why does this lead to a war?

That's kind of like saying the Allies should have stopped at the Rhine in WWII - like George Bush did at the Iraqi border in 1991 (look where that got us)....

Let's see:

An assassin trying to kill a Republic Senator is traced back to the leader of the Seperatist Movement.

The Jedi, a direct representative of The Republic & it's authority, who is investigating that assassin & is shot at by droidekas, held without cause (don't give me that 'trespassing' stuff), then sentenced to death along with the first 2 people who come to rescue him.

The exectution is taking place as the other Jedi arrive & are fired upon by a droid army.

Many Jedi are killed.

Plus, there is still a 'Techno-Union' Army at the Seperatist's dispossal, & the leaders of the Seperatist Movement (which even they say can be conscrued as treason) are at large with a big portion of the Trade Federation's Army still intact.......

Sounds to me like there ALREADY is a war.

 

Actually, while it is obvious to us (the audience) that Jango is working for Dooku, to the Jedi and Padme, it probably seems more apparent that Jango is working for Nute Gunray (remember Obi-Wan telling the council that is is obvious that Gunray was behind the assassination attempts on Padme, NOT Dooku). So Jango's link to Dooku still cannot be confirmed, other than the fact that they happened to be on Geonosis at the same time (which, incidentally, also does not confirm anything because Jango could have gone to Geonosis to report to Nute Gunray, not Dooku.). In fact, Jango is just a mercenary - he reports to whoever pays him $$$, and hence yes, as someone mentioned before, his involvement with the clones and his assasination attempts on Padme may be nothing more than a coincidence.

In fact, there were some arguments in earlier threads about why Dooku, as leader of the separatists, would hire Jango to kill Padme when Padme strongly opposes the Military Creation Act. Maybe it really wasn't Dooku who hired Jango to kill Padme, but Nute Gunray.

Just a thought.

 

There are obviously a lot of good responses to this, but I will just reply to some of the most common ones, so I can stop making such long posts.

Even if the Jedi knew the Clones were evil or at leats ordered by the bad guys, they had no choice but to use them on Geonosis.

I am totally willing to agree with this. Even though if you go ahead and use them in that battle, you should also be expecting a trap. Neverthless as JEDI-ES points out, what about after the Battle of Geonosis, which the Clones clearly won? There is no immediate threat to the Jedi. They now have time to launch a full-scale investigation. Especially once they know a Sith is the leader of the CIS! And he was a party behind ordering the Clones and possible killing Sifo-Dyas.

THe Jedi are becoming weaker in the Force. They can no longer detect things. They are incredibly inept.

all of this is true, but damn, they are EXTREMELY inept if they cannot see the blatant clues around them. I mean a casual observer should be able to put these clues together. Like I said, the Force is not needed to sense any of these things so the whole "hard to see the dark side is.." reply does not apply here at all. And I completely agree with you DARTH SIN, I too wish that the Jedi were not being portrayed as a bunch of inept, clueless bureacrats in the PT. Especially since this is described in the TPM DVD as "the Jedi in their prime"! They were not a very effective group. But oh well...

MORIARTE-- You raise some very interesting points on how the utter reliance on the Force could make them so clueless once they lose ability. I can see this as working out, but I wish it was explained a little bit in the movies. That's a great theory.

We know these clues, but the Jedi don't

Again, everything I have put in my original post are things the Jedi defintiely know by the end of AOTC.

The Jedi cannot just come out and accuse Palpatine.

Who say's they have to?? At this point, I don't think they should be 100% sure Palps is the Sith. but they can defintiely launch an investigation. Step 1 would be getting the Kaminoans in for a talk. Maybe asking them things like "What did Sifo-Dyas look like?" "Where was the money sent from?" "How did this Tyrannus contact you?" You know, things of that sort. And then they could at leats alert the Senate that they have 100% certainty that Dooku is a Sith and that they have reason to believe he may have a collaborator in the Senate. Brining in Jango's severed head as evidence of things being a little strange (since he is the clone template) could also be a good move. Palps does not have to be named at all yet. Even if he is not exposed, he will definitely change his plans. And it keeps everyone dilligent and alert.

This is not a plot hole

But I think it is. This extreme ignorance of good clues and evidence makes it such a stretch I can't buy it. The story should have been written differently. We know already from GL and the other actors that the Jedi will be fighting the Clone War for 4 years so they get duped. That's crazy.

DURWOOD-- I knew it would not take long for you to try and flame me. Why don't you tell me what the Jedi should conclude from Jango wokring on Kamino as the clone template being with Dooku in the VIP box and Kamino missing form the Jedi archives. I think people keep forgetting that BIG clue. Kamino just happens to be erased! Only a Jedi could have done that. And it just so happens at the times the clones were ordred, the one recent Jedi to use the dark side leaves the order. And now he has re-emerged in this big conflict 10 years later. That is the big link between Jango and Dooku. Them being in the VIP box together is the clincher.


P.S. JenX-- Thanks for having my back.

 

Or maybe we should retitle it "How long will it take Durwood to come here and make an insulting post?"

Better yet, we should retitle it "How long it will take Jen-X to misread Durwood's post and flame him because she's predisposed to disagree with him because of earlier arguements they got in, regardless of what Durwood actually meant?"

Even better still, it should be called "How long will it take someone with no sense of humor to come here and start a basher - gusher argument because he/she has the inability to separate sarcasm from spite?"

Wait, maybe we should just rename EVERY thread with that title, just to be safe.

P.S. JenX-- Thanks for having my back.

Oh look, isn't that cute, they're congradulating each other for bashing someone who was making a joke.

It's not a plot hole, it's a question mark to be answered in the next movie. This is a very political movie, many "gray" areas. Even Lucas himself said that it may be difficult to distinguish the bad guys from the good guys. There are a myriad of differing agendas on ALL sides of this. Not everything in the SW universe is so cut and dried. Stop trying to oversimplify everything to justify your dislike of AOTC.

 

I must be new here.
I'm used to discussion groups much more volatile.

Try defending GWB or Christianity to a bunch of Deadheads...


>>>> Neverthless as JEDI-ES points out, what about after the Battle of Geonosis, which the Clones clearly won? There is no immediate threat to the Jedi.

As I said before......
There is the Techno-Union Army.
The Seperatist leaders all escape.
There are MANY droid spaceships, the big, round ones (I'm guessing they are troop transports) that don't get shot down.

There is still a huge insurrection which has STARTED hostillities with the Republic to be dealt with.

 

Ok, Only_2 , you seem to be:

1) Claiming the ability to read my mind (as you seem to be telling me what my intentions were in posting my short remark)

2) Keeping some weird track of dicussions I've had with Durwood in the past (which is kind of creepy)

3) Telling me that Durwood's post wasn't actually insulting.

Well, 1) is wrong, 2) is just disturbing and 3) is a matter of opinion.

If you wish to continue this oh-so topical debate, feel free to PM me. If you have something to say that is actually related to the title of this thread, feel free to post it here.


Green-Destiny-Sword

No problem You've raised some interesting points (and have provoked some very interesting and well thought out replies). I agree that the diminishing force-powers of the Jedi shouldn't blind them to things which really don't require force powers to see. I still don't consider it a plot hole...but it does make me wonder how the Jedi ever managed to defeat the Sith in the first place, given the level of intelligence they have displayed in TPM and AOTC.

 

OBI-GYN-- Where do we get any indication of an imminent military threat in AOTC? Yes, the droids and Techno Union are still present. I agree. But are they attacking? Have they launched an assault on Republic Systems? Like someone said earlier, I have NO IDEA where the clones are heading at the end of the movie? Where is the conflict?

In fact, now that I think about it, even the conflict on Geonosis could be seen as aggressive on the part of the Republic. What was Obi Wan doing there? Spying on CIS leaders. Then what next? Anakin and a Senator show up ready to fight. Then the Jedi show up 200 deep. Of course this was all a set up, but the CIS could argue that they are only being reactionary.

And despite this, the Coruscant Jedi ranks have been depleted to about 10 maybe? Taking time to regroup and restrategize and at the same time trying to put some clues together would be completely understandable. This is not some emergency, FUBAR situation. The Republic is going off to war, but it's war that the Battle of Geonosis proved is clearly winnable and not one where the enemy is making any invasive assualts on Repblic systems yet.

JenX-- Yeah, I am glad that the discussion has been so good so far. And you're right, I don't know how the Jedi accomplished anything big. Much less defeat the Sith! Maybe they should check the archives and read up on their history. Right now they are looking like a bunch of bunglers. And I think that portrayal is too unrealistic.

 

DURWOOD-- I knew it would not take long for you to try and flame me.

My tongue in cheek comment was a flame? ?

Me thinks your skin is a bit thin, my friend.

P.S. Only_2-- Thanks for having my back.

 

Great thread. I have gained a new perspective of the Jedi from viewing the PT. I believe they are too dependant on technology (droid analizers), and have become very comfortable (1000 years of peace will do that). The plot hole you mention is not very difficult to figure out to the audience (except for dumb, arrogant Jedi). I was ticked during my first viewing when Obi-Wan was admiring the Republic's success from the opening of the Clone War. I thought they would do the math and discover that Dooku is playing both sides, the Republic and the Separtists. They do decide to be weary of the senate (including Palpatine), but c'mon evil is right in front of your eyes.

I think in Ep. 3 the Jedi will expose Palpatine as the fraud he is, and Palpatine will declare the Jedi as the true enemy of the Republic (after all a Jedi Master did place the Clone order....). Hence the Jedi purge, and the end of the Republic (becoming the Empire). I think GL could have written things a little better (not so obvious), but I guess it's difficult to do....

 

And just to show my good intentions and to try and lighten the mood a bit, here is a book for the humor impaired in our midst:

[image=http://www.electrophonk.be/zenith/sarcdummies.jpg]

Enjoy!

 

Oh, oh, me too Durwood! My comment was tongue in cheek!

Silly thin skinned people




Only_2

Stop trying to oversimplify everything to justify your dislike of AOTC

Your power grows stronger; now you can read Green_Destiny_Sword's mind too

It's not a plot hole, it's a question mark to be answered in the next movie. This is a very political movie, many "gray" areas. Even Lucas himself said that it may be difficult to distinguish the bad guys from the good guys. There are a myriad of differing agendas on ALL sides of this. Not everything in the SW universe is so cut and dried.

Different topic. We are talking about the stupidity of the Jedi and their inability to see the obvious. Stop trying to symplify things; being stupid and being "evil" are not neccessarily the same thing.

 

1) Claiming the ability to read my mind (as you seem to be telling me what my intentions were in posting my short remark)

Wrong. I read your remark not your mind. You made your intentions pretty clear with your remark.

2) Keeping some weird track of dicussions I've had with Durwood in the past (which is kind of creepy)

Wrong. It's just fairly obvious since you called out Durwood by name without addressing his opinion, but just to flame him that this battle goes way back. Not to mention if you look anywhere on these boards you see the same lame arguments from the same people everywhere, myself included. I don't need to keep track of anything, you posting your comments does a fine job of that for everyone who comes here. It is a public forum you know.

3) Telling me that Durwood's post wasn't actually insulting.

I didn't take it that way, I found it rather funny actually. He poked fun at a haphazardly illustrated theory about a plot hole that makes sense only if you buy the spin someone puts on it. You got insulted by his sarcasm which wasn't even directed at you. Ooops!

If you wish to continue this oh-so topical debate, feel free to PM me. If you have something to say that is actually related to the title of this thread, feel free to post it here.

No need for PM battling, I don't care all that much about what you have to say. And you can read my whole post and then decide if it's on-topic or not.

 

Your power grows stronger; now you can read Green_Destiny_Sword's mind too

Once again, if you've spent any time here you tend to get an idea of what somebody's view of AOTC is. GDS clearly disliked at least portions of AOTC, but I guess you would need to actually read other peoples posts to understand how they feel. You might want to try that.

Different topic. We are talking about the stupidity of the Jedi and their inability to see the obvious. Stop trying to symplify things; being stupid and being "evil" are not neccessarily the same thing.

Really? The title of this thread is still "Is there a potential plot hole in AOTC" isn't it? This thread is only 2 pages old. I'm not on topic? I guess I do have to read your mind to find out how I need to post.

 

DURWOOD-- Right, well I can get a joke, but you have been just dropping comments and not making real responses since our other thread yesterday. And that barely sounded sarcastic. But if it was in jest, so be it! No harm done.

How about this name for a thread "People who cannot think of any real answers to defend their ideas resort to sarcasm!"


ONLY_2- I am not oversimplifying anything. Read the thread. Even the people who disagree with me, are not saying my evidence is "made up" or "just oversimplifying things". If you have an answer to what I have said, then state it. You say my theory is haphazard and is "spin". That's a CNN talking head response. how about a real answer to all of the overhwleming evidence the Jedi know at the end of AOTC?

And for the record, I did see DURWOOD's response as a flame, although he said he was just joking, which is fine. As the last person to jump into this, maybe you should do some re-reading before you speak out.

JenX- Thanks again!

 

Only_2

I don't care all that much about what you have to say

Well, that's obvious, considering you've posted twice on this thread, both posts being replies to me, including the last one which was a point by point dissection of my last post.




On-topic, I wonder how the Jedi did defeat the Sith...does anyone have any EU information on hand as to how this feat was achieved?


Editted to add: THREE posts in reply to me, Only_2! OMG! How many posts would you send if you did care about what I had to say????

The mind boggles!

 

So much for lightening the mood. See what happens when I try to be funny? You should have seen what happened at the last club I did my stand-up routine in!

 

How about this name for a thread "People who cannot think of any real answers to defend their ideas resort to sarcasm!"

Well, go back to the bottom of page one and you'll see that I did provide a real answer, thank you very much.

 

I will agree that the idea of why the Jedi seem so oblivious to Dooku's intentions and what is happening around them is peculiar. It's when you chalk it up to being a plot hole as opposed to being an intentional gap to make you go "hmmm?" that bugs me.

We also do not know who Sifo-Dyas is, what his history with the Jedi are or whether Dooku is who we think he is. Sidious is clearly playing both sides to his advantage. Dooku could end up as Sidious' patsy, a stepping stone to power thereby turing on Sidious after taking the fall and starting the Rebellion by default anyway. The speculation is great and there can be many theories. It's when it's blamed on poor plot execution instead of intentional cliffhangers that I don't agree with.

 

"Taxi here for Mr Durwood!"

Adapted from the best heckle I ever heard.

Durwood, I'm laughing! I'm laughing with you, which makes a change...



(That was tongue in cheek and totally meant as a joke, for any thin-skinned people who might be reading this).


GROUP HUG


So, err, back on topic...maybe the Jedi didn't actually beat the Sith? Maybe it's not a question of the Jedi ever being smart enough to beat them? Did the Sith actually destroy themselves (thus the need to create this "rule of two")? That would be consistent with the lack of intelligence shown by the Jedi in TPM and AOTC?

 

*joining the group hug* Peace!

ONLY 2-- I just don't see what the explanation could be besides a plot hole. There's no logical reason to me for why the Jedi could not figure this out. Even the basic question of "who the hell really ordered the clones?" is one that should be answered. They know the dark side clouds everything. They were surprised they could not sense the clones being made. Uhhh..maybe the dark side had something to do with it??? This is basic. Also, they know a former Jedi is a Sith. That is serious cause for alarm, especially when he says he has been training for 10 years meaning he was recurited while he was still a Jedi!

I just see these as errors in the storyline. The same story could have been written in a way so that the Jedi would have truly been deceived as opposed to us concluding they are incredibly inept, blind and ignorant.

JenX-- If Ep. III actually explained what happened to the Sith 1000 years ago, that alone would make the movie worthwhile for me! I would like to think that the Jedi actually defeated them though. They have to be somewhat effective.

 

Durwood, I'm laughing! I'm laughing with you, which makes a change...

What? You mean you usually laugh at me?! Why you little...!

O.K., back on topic! I still think it's a bit early to start poking holes in a story when there's still one giant hole in it, i.e. one whole chapter missing!

But even looking at the information we have now, it is quite easy to reconcile the plot difficulties that may be evident in AOTC. But until Episode III, it's a little hard to tell what's a plot hole and what's merely a loose end to be answered in Episode III.

----------

They know the dark side clouds everything. They were surprised they could not sense the clones being made. Uhhh..maybe the dark side had something to do with it??? This is basic. Also, they know a former Jedi is a Sith. That is serious cause for alarm, especially when he says he has been training for 10 years meaning he was recurited while he was still a Jedi!

As I said, the Jedi have bits and pieces but they don't have the whole picture, and looking at the whirlwind of events that trasnpired in Attack Of The Clones it's no wonder the Jedi didn't have the time to launch a full investigation into the matter. No doubt they'll find more pieces of the puzzle as the story unfolds.

 

Editted to add: THREE posts in reply to me, Only_2! OMG! How many posts would you send if you did care about what I had to say????

My reply count is not an indicator that I care about what you have to say. It shows how much I enjoy pointing out that you'd like to have your cake and eat it too. I like watching people who contradict themselves by calling one person a flamer while flaming others themselves dig their contradiction holes deeper. I'm not reading your mind, I'm speculating based upon the inscendiary responses you keep making, they make it easy for me. Would you take such offense if what I said wasn't true or would you laugh it off?

"Must've hit pretty close to the mark to get her all riled up like that, huh kid?"

 

I just see these as errors in the storyline. The same story could have been written in a way so that the Jedi would have truly been deceived as opposed to us concluding they are incredibly inept, blind and ignorant

Well, an error in the storyline is different to a plot hole. You are arguing that you don't like the way in which the Jedi have been portrayed; that's a matter of taste.


I'm partially in agreement with Durwood on this, insofar as I'll withhold a certain amount of judgement until Episode 3. Who knows? Maybe the Jedi have launched a inquiry asking all the questions which have been posed on this thread? It's possible...


Although Obi-Wan is still a twit .

Obi-Wan: "Hmmm, I've been told about a planet, the map shows that there is something exerting the gravitational pull of a planet right where the planet should be, but the little red dot representing a planet isn't there! What should I do, what should I do..."


Oh brother...




editted to add: Only_2, honestly, have you read any of my replies to you? Where do you get idea that my responses are "inscendiary" [sp]? How many and do I have to put in them to show you that I think your replies are funny, not offensive? Don't you think it's bizarre that you are still posting about a post I made ages ago whilst Durwood has accepted the joke and moved on??? Show me a post were I called someone a flamer? Heck, show me a post (other then this one) in which I've used the term "flamer".

But, hey, if you want to share your comedy responses with the whole board, rather then just PM-ing them to me, go ahead! I guess it's kind of selfish of me to want to hoard all these laughs for myself