Is This a Potential Plot Hole in AOTC?

Another point to think about in this discussion is that the Jedi by the time AOTC ends, they are in a state of confusion about Dooku in my opinion.

In the beginning of the film, they deny that Dooku could be part of any assassination attempt, and though being an idealist, he was once a Jedi.
So they could not at this point allow themselves to believe that Dooku could turn evil in any way.

I think the reason this is, is because the Jedi Council was still reeling and ashamed from losing this noble and powerful Jedi Master(Lost Twenty and the deleted scenes )

Then you have Mace having to confront the very person he said could not be a murderer at Geonosis, whereupon he is having Jedi to be executed in the arena.
Then of course Dooku unleashes the droids on his former comrades.

Then in the end, Mace, Obi-Wan and Yoda are having to discuss whether Dooku's claims about a Sith named Lord Darth Sidious are true. Yoda says he has turned to lies and deceit. So the truth is that the Jedi cannot even be for sure if Dooku is telling the truth, when he was telling the truth.

And it is in my opinion that they really cannot be for sure if he has become a Sith. But they do now know he has turned to evil. And they would really be blind if they try and conclude that Dooku was the Sith Master all along that trained Maul, or that he was Maul' apprentice. But the Jedi may make this mistake and really confuse themselves with either situation because Dooku experimented with the dark side in the past, and using it now.


Darth Sin!

 

SIN-- I agree somewhat it should be pretty obvious that Dooku is a Sith.

1) He kills almost 200 Jedi -- Dooku is extremly evil and has set-up the Jedi to die. At that point you must think the dark side has consumed him.

2) His powers-- He repeatedly brags about how powerful he is, can shoot lightning and says he has been training in the dark side for 10 years. I would assume that he had to have learned this from someone. Yoda seems experienced enough with Force lightning to be able to absorb it without harm. I think he would also know this is a Sith power. It would be hard for me to think Yoda does not know Dooku is a Sith.

3) He uses a red saber-- This should be the obvious one. The only other Force user to have a red saber is Darth Maul. Is this yet another huge coincidence?

4) He knows about the Sith -- When Qui Gon encounted Maul, he told the Council that Maul was "trained in the Jedi arts". He was not even sure enough to know Maul was a Sith. So it's clear the Jedi outside of the COuncil are not even that familiar withthe concept of the Sith. Dooku on the other hand has intimate knowledge of what the Sith are up to when he speak s to Obi Wan. He even names Darth Sidious. Now even assuming that Obi Wan does not believe him AT ALL, it still would seem quite strange that Dooku would choose to mention the Sith in his elaborate lie to Obi Wan. (And I still don't know why at that point Obi Wan would not just go along with Dooku's offer-- just like he did when the Kaminoans thought he knew about the clones and sifo-dyas. In fact in this situation, it would make more sense because Dooku was going to have him killed).

All this to me would make one conclude that Dooku is a Sith. Plus the fact that Maul was killed just at the time Dooku left the Order.

 

I agree with GDS and JenX. The way the Jedi are portrayed makes them look like idiots. Which is perhaps what GL was going for.

 

It really doesn't matter whether Dooku is a "sith" or not by the end of AOTC.

Obi-wan traces Jango to the Clone army, then to Geonosis and count Dooku. Jango is working for Dooku, therefore Dooku has something to do with the Clone army. Therefore Dooku either intends to use the clone army along with the droid army to defeat the republic, or he intends the clone army to fall into the hands of the republic and defeat the droid army.

Not even Obi-wan, the guy who needed the help of elementary school students to solve the Kamino mystery, could fail to see the connection. If Jango is working for Dooku then the likelihood is that Dooku ordered, or worked for someone who ordered, the clone army.

This is a plot hole, but for me the bigger plot hole is simply how the Kaminoans could be so easily duped into building an army. And how was it funded? It helps if plot points like that make sense in a real world kind of way. For example, try phoning up General Dynamics and placing an order for 100 joint strike fighters. Tell them you're the Secretary of Defense and that you'll be in touch again as soon as the planes are ready. I'll get on the phone and try to order a strategic nuclear submarine.

 

I don't understand what you think the Jedi have overlooked. Surely they know everything the audience knows? By the end of AOTC the Jedi are aware that:

-Jango was behind the assasination attempts on Padme that were ordered by Nute Gunray.

-Jango was the template for the clones that were "ordered" by Sifo-Dyas for the Republic, a Jedi that died 10 years ago, at about the time the clones were ordered.

-A man called Tyrannus hired Jango to be the genetic template for the clones.

-The clones were developed on Kamino, a planet that has been erased from the Jedi records.

-Jango is working for the CIS.

-The Sith might be influencing members of the Senate.

So, it is likely that they will figure that Dooku was behind the creation of the clones, probably for his own use along with the armies of the CIS. They know he is a Sith and it's possible that the Sith have an influence in the Senate if they choose to believe what Dooku told Obi-wan. However, they don't know how Darth Sidious is influencing the Senate and to point the finger at Palpatine would be very premature. It seems obvious to us, but I really don't think the Jedi would be able to make such a radical assumption just yet.

As for all the mobilisation at the end of the film, the rebulic have perceived a possible threat so the best way to deal with it is to declare war and neutralise the threat before it becomes too big. Sound familiar?

 

Quoting OBI-GYN_Kenobi:
///
OB1: "Funny, but he was the bounty hunter I traced to Kamino & was also the 'template' for the Clone Army."

Mace: "Get outta town! Are you serious?"

Now, nobody besides OB1 has heard or seen anything to connect Count Dooku in any way with the Clone Army up until this hypothetical point......
///
end of quote.

First of all I think that fanfic dialouge was awesome, specially Mace lines "get outta town!" hehehehehehe.lol.

Now talking seriously I hadn't actually though about it but exaclty that is the reason why the jedi don't see it coming, besides for what I previously posted at the begining of this thread about "the jedi's becoming kind of lame" I think that OB1 is very responsible for everything, cause you don't see him telling this very important information to Mace or anybody!

And he is the only one that knows that Jango is the bounty that was trying to kill Padme and that he is the guy that is standing next to Dokuu on the VIP box on the arena confrontation. Nobody except OB1 knows how does Jango looks like, not even Mace when he chops his head off! so when somebody takes a look to at the clones, well, there is no way of making a conection.

And this is nothing to be surprised of, supporting again my first post here I have to say that after OB1 not beeing able to see the most obvius with the kamino being ereased issue, after that you can expect any kind of stupidity from Obi, like not telling everybody all of this important things.

and quoting OBI-GYN_Kenobi again:
////
So, if the Jedi confront Palpatine, he'll say "Huh? What are you talking about? You guys ordered the clones & now deny it."

Then, the Jedi get branded as enemies of the state and/or 'warmongers'.......
////
end of quote.

I totally agree with this!!! this is a very high posibility for happening in Episode III, this Palpatine guy is a really maquiavelic personality. The whole thing of using the name of Syfo Dyas to order the clones is to make the whole universe think that the ones who ordered them were the jedi,and later they will try to desolve the clone army or something like that after yoda finally tells all the Jedi what he has been keeping from them and that the conclusion is that the clones are in the side of the "bad" guys, we can expect the whole universe turning agains the Jedi.

This kind of behaviour of the masses being easily manipulated by only one "evil" guy to turn against some particular group of people, has repeated several times in the human history. Anybody remembers hitler telling all of the Germans how the Jewish where traitors and should be exterminated? I think we can expect something like that in E.III.

 

Jabba-- you are right. There is no explanation for how or why the Kaminoans would build such a massive army, capable of taking over the galaxy. Or how they were paid. And then on top of that, I am guessing that Kamino will be barely involved in Ep. III if it's included at all, even though they would obviously be key to figuring all of this out.

PALP FICTION said: However, they don't know how Darth Sidious is influencing the Senate and to point the finger at Palpatine would be very premature. It seems obvious to us, but I really don't think the Jedi would be able to make such a radical assumption just yet.

They don't need to accuse Palps yet. I have said this already. At this point they shouldn't know that Palps is a Sith. but they should launch an investigation based on the fact that they know Dooku was directly involved with the ordering of the Clones. If that is not enough of a red flag for you, I don't know what would be.

As for all the mobilisation at the end of the film, the rebulic have perceived a possible threat so the best way to deal with it is to declare war and neutralise the threat before it becomes too big. Sound familiar?

Ooooh, I get it. *wink* *wink* Iraq right? *wink* Anyway, where is the threat? Do you know? If so clue me in. Either way, my point was that there is no immediate conflict to head to, so the Jedi have time to launch an investigation.

SERGEJG said: Now, nobody besides OB1 has heard or seen anything to connect Count Dooku in any way with the Clone Army up until this hypothetical point......

Here we go... Wrong. Obi Wan sent a transmission back to the Council to let him know he had discovered the bounty hunter Jango Fett. They also knew that Jango was on Kamino. They also knew the Clones were made on Kamino and the whole Sifo-Dyas drama. Obi Wan told them!! And despite that, the rest of the clues are obvious. And it's not like Obi Wan is dead. He can tell them everything he knows after the battle of geonosis.

Again, the clues I have listed are all apparent at the end of the movie. The Jedi should have known this and realized the Clone War is a phony, orchestrated conflict.

 

I'm sure Ob-wan realises that Dooku ordered the Clones and that he is a Sith. However, he probably assumes that they were originally developed for the CIS under the guise that they were for the republic. By using the Clones to fight on the side of the Republic I expect the Jedi thought they had acquired a weapon originally designed for the enemy.

As for the threat, Obi-wan overheard Dooku telling the various fed and clan leaders that with huge armies at their disposal they could hold the republic to ransom. Therefore, the clones are sent off to wipe out these armies and to protect vital tactical areas of the republic.

 

PALP-- So now you think that Obi Wan knows Dooku is a Sith? Okay, so if he knows Dooku ordered the clones, then that gives them every reason to investigate how a Sith was able to order the clones using a mmurdered Jedi's name!

And as far as Obi Wan thinking he "stole" the clones from Dooku, this is waaay to unbelievable. If Dooku wanted the clones for the CIS, why go to all of the trouble of ordering them under the name Sifo-Dyas? And either way, we know that does not fit in wit the grand Sith plan. If Obi Wan already knows Dooku ordered the clones, the msytery is solved. Why on Earth would they not use this as a basis for a real investigation and root out the Sith in the Senate and stop this crazy "Clone War" ?

And I don't dispute that the CIs has a large army, but are the Jedi just going to do a pre-emptive attack? If so, I'll buy it, but it still means that the Jedi have time to do some detective work.

 

Dooku needed the clones to be developed and used the name of the Jedi, Sifo Dyas, to order them. That would give them some legitimacy, rather than Dooku just turning up and oredering a clone army for his own purposes. The Jedi would assume Dooku used his Jedi connections to get the clone army built. The Jedi knew something was amiss big time, but I don't think they thought for one minute that the clone army was really supposed to be for the republic's benefit.

The only clue that the Jedi have of the Sith controlling the Senate is from what Dooku told Obi-wan. It is very little to go on and by the end of AOTC they are not certain if any of it is true anyway.

 

And it's not like Obi Wan is dead. He can tell them everything he knows after the battle of geonosis.

He probably did. But after the Battle of Geonosis the movie kinda, you know, ended? Besides, Lucas probably figured the audience was smart enough to infer from the conversation between the three Jedi that Obi-Wan had told them everything. That's one nice thing about Lucas' movies, he doesn't treat his audience like idiots by spelling out every trivial detail. He gives you enough information to use your imagination to fill in the blanks.

Again, the clues I have listed are all apparent at the end of the movie. The Jedi should have known this and realized the Clone War is a phony, orchestrated conflict.

They more than likely do, but simply having that knowledge won't put a stop to it. I mean, give us a logical scenario in which the Jedi could put a stop to the war, eh? Sure, they may be able to stop the Republic army from fighting, but what about the sepratists? Good luck getting them to agree to a cease fire on the slim evidence of corruption of in the Republic! The Republic holds no jurisdiction over them, so even if the war was orchestrated, once the sepratists launched their first offensive, it's a real war, and the only choice now is to see it through!

 

Forgive me if my exact memory of AOTC isn't clear, but I remember Jango working for Nute Gunray NOT Dooku. Either way, I'm sure this would arouse suspicions, but as Durwood said, the movie kinda ended.

At the end of AOTC, Yoda says "joined the dark side, Dooku has..." This would indicate that the jedi NOW believe that Dooku is the sith master, in contrast to the beginning of the film, where he is merely a political idealist.

The jedi are obviously blind to Palpatine, and would have no reason to suspect him. I don't think this makes them appear to be inept. Remember Yoda's line in ROTJ? "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor..." Palpatine consults the jedi, and 'reluctantly' accepts emergency powers. They have no reason to suspect him, unless they were to fully believe Dooku about Sidious. Dooku seems a much more logical choice to be the one controlling the senate, considering his past as a jedi, and how he reveals himself to be a sith. Again, the movie ended, so we shall see in Episode 3.

Palpatine/Sidious works in the shadows. He truly is the phantom menace. Dooku is the one who is out in the open. Kinda like a puppet regime. While the jedi may now suspect something is rotten in Denmark, it is obviously too late. Begun, the clone war has.

 

Forgive me if my exact memory of AOTC isn't clear, but I remember Jango working for Nute Gunray NOT Dooku.

I think were are to believe that Jango is working for Dooku by the fact that when Obi-Wan is eavesdropping on Dooku and Gunray, the Viceroy asks Dooku if Padme is dead yet? Why would he do that if Jango was instead working for him? I took it as Dooku hiring out Jango to kill Padme as a means of getting Gunray to sign his treaty. Dooku, also under the name of Tyrannus contracted Jango for the template of the Clone Army. So its not that big of a stretch.

 

Thanks White Knight. Obviously my memory of AOTC is not entirely clear.

Thankfully the AOTC DVD is not to far away.

 

I think what we are supposed to infer from the film is that, if anything, the Jedi suspect Dooku is the missing Sith Master from Episode 1. The clues naturally fall into place. All the events in Episode 2 began gestating 10 years prior, around the same time of the emergence of Maul.

Obi Wan and Yoda may disbelieve Dooku when he says Sidious is controlling the Senate, or, they may now believe HE is Sidious. Nute Gunray obviously was in league with Sidious, and his present involvement with Dooku paints a very dire picture.

What the Jedi have - beyond the rock solid evidence related to the clones and Kamino - is a lot of circumstantial evidence that may lead them to believe Dooku is the Sith or has resurrected the idea of the Sith for his own violent purposes.

Darb

 

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but if it has, just to reiterate:

An important reason that the Republic has to go to war with the CIS is that many star systems have suceeded from the Republic, and Dooku is confident several thousand more will follow. Of course the Republic is going to take action.

And the Jedi have to answer to the Chancellor. That is one of the reasons, Palps had to become Chancellor. If they disobey, they're toast. But they're toast as it is with the whole "Sifo-Dyas" (a "Jedi") ordering the clones. It's a no win situation for the Jedi. Palps has them where he wants them.

I do think that Yoda, Mace, and Obi-Wan are the key leaders that will (and already have started) spearheading the investigation to find out just what the heck is going on. But Mace is prone to arrogance (i.e. his whole attitude in TPM, and his defeat of Jango Fett - check the look). And Obi-Wan has good intentions, but takes things at face-value sometimes, blinded by facts, and sometimes misses what is hidden under the surface (i.e. Why do I suspect we've picked up another pathetic lifeform? That boy is our last hope... And of course the Kamino coordinates incident). Is Yoda perfect? No. Consider when Obi-Wan does mention that Dooku could be telling the truth, that the first thing coming out of Yoda's mouth is "Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are Dooku's ways now" (or something like that, man I can't wait for November). And he has the grumpy look. He is troubled overly so that his former apprentice has turned to the Dark side. I think he takes it personally, reflecting on his ability to teach one the ways of the Force. The point is, at the end of AOTC that is his initial focus. Once he gets over the fact that Dooku went bad and he can't brood over the past, and once Obi-Wan learns to dig deeper, and once Mace can shelf his arrogance for awhile - together they can put their heads together and get something done. They will be up to something of their own during the time frame between Episodes II and III.

I suspect that in the opening scroll of Episode III, we will learn about some type of action that Yoda and his fellow Jedi have taken. Something that will surprise the audience and get Episode III of to a great start.

 

I think this is more Lucas just didn't want us to know what the Jedi are thinking than a plot hole.

It's like a murder mystery...the clues are found throughout the story, but what those clues mean--and who's behind it all aren't usually revealed until the end.

 

Green_Destiny_Sword, you are right in that Obi told the jedi council, but here is where you are wrong in your assumption:

Nobody except from Obi Wan knows how does Jango looks, thus, who he is. He needs to tell everyone, like someone said at the begining of this post, that the guy standing next to dokuu on the Genosian VIP box is the guy from which the clones are made.

And yes, OB is not dead and could tell everybody about it, but that's exactly the point, OB was shown in AOTC to be the worst detective in the whole universe, he acted very stupidly and thus we can suppose that he will continue to be stupid again and not tell the council that the guy that Mace choped of his head was in fact the famouse Jango Fett. This all is more deeply explained in the first replys on the first page of this post. so there you go Green_Destiny_Sword.

 

I seriously doubt Lucas intended the audience to think Obi-Wan was a complete dunce. That is the strangest explanation I've heard yet.

 

DURWOOD-- It's the most popular explanation that people have been giving. All people keep saying is the Jedi "are dumb" and "clueless."

The only clue that the Jedi have of the Sith controlling the Senate is from what Dooku told Obi-wan. It is very little to go on and by the end of AOTC they are not certain if any of it is true anyway.

So the fact that the Senate is debating a Military Creation Act at the same time a miitary is being secretly created is not a potential hint????

WUFFY said: What the Jedi have - beyond the rock solid evidence related to the clones and Kamino - is a lot of circumstantial evidence that may lead them to believe Dooku is the Sith or has resurrected the idea of the Sith for his own violent purposes.

I don't know why the Jedi would think that Dooku is the master. He left the Order at the time Maul was killed. So regardless of whether Maul was the master or the apprentice, the remaining Sith would now be the master. So if Dooku is a Sith, he is the apprentice.
And also, I don't know how you can view all of this evidence as "circumstantial". Dooku is using a red sbaer, Sith powers and killing hundreds of Jedi. He's a Sith.

bjbirckm said: An important reason that the Republic has to go to war with the CIS is that many star systems have suceeded from the Republic, and Dooku is confident several thousand more will follow. Of course the Republic is going to take action.


Fine. I'll buy this, even though no one ever actually says this in the movie. But even if this is the case, the Jedi can decide to not lead the strike and become heroes of a war they know is part of a conspiracy to help Dooku! And I don't know why the Senate would not be persuaded by it. Even if the systems are joining Dooku, exposing him as an evil Sith Lord would at least slow down some of his momentum, you'd have to think. And again once you KNOW Dooku ordered the clones, you have to KNOW that winning this war with the CIS is not his real goal. He wants a war...why? Obviously to achieve some other evil goal.


And again, I believe this is a plot hole because it is just too unbelievable that the Jedi just ignore the clues and go along with this. We know that the Clone War ends at the beginning of Ep. III. That means for 4 years following AOTC, the Jedi have been falling right in line with Dooku's and Sidious' plans. And that's crazy given what they know.

 

Actually the movie makes it quite clear that the CIS is a real threat to the Republic by gaining more star systems in it's favor. The crawl sets this up. Palpatine says so in his meeting with the Jedi (2nd scene in theatrical release) and Dooku even says so later on.

What more do you need? Jar Jar saying so as well? Mesa think all dese Seperatists leaving the Republic are bombad.

 

Good points Green_Destiny_Sword!

The whole mystery behind the creation of the clones and them being discovered just before the wars begin, a Jedi erasing Kamino from the Jedi Archives, and a former Jedi leading the Separatist movement should have caused the Jedi Council to say something is not right here and certainly a conspiracy is taking place. And then despite what the Jedi believed about Dooku beforehand that he was not a murderer, to then see him having Jedi killed, and using the dark side to give him power. Dooku's use of Sith lightning should be a strong clue to the Jedi about where Dooku is now and potentially has become.

Now add in the fact that the Jedi know that the Sith have returned and that one of them is dead. So irregardless as to whether the one left is the Master or the Apprentice, still meant that the one left would have to recruit another to keep the "rule of two" intact. So the Jedi should have still been in the process of trying to find the other Sith in the ten years from the events of TPM.

So if anything, they should suspect that Sith are involved somehow with the circumstances that have occurred. Remember that even Ki-Adi Mundi said in TPM that the whole Republic(galaxy)was threatened if the Sith still existed.

Now ten years later, the threat of war has come to the Republic, and many mysteries have occurred. After Yoda and Mace had spoken with Obi-Wan from Kamino, Yoda even says that the Sith know about their weakness in being unable to effectively use the Force to see the things that have transpired.

So Yoda almost says and implies that the Sith are likely involved somehow in the events that were transpiring.

Then in the end, Obi-Wan has conveyed to Yoda and Mace what Dooku has said.
Though Dooku has turned to lies and deceit, all the evidence that the Jedi had prior to this info should at least cause to realize that there is something odd about the circumstances that triggered the Clone War, and that Dooku has to be involved and that there is most likely truth in what he said.

They should really think that there must be something to what he has said, because they have heard nothing more about the Sith(I assume)since the time of TPM, and now a former Jedi says he has learned about the Sith from none other than an individual, Nute Gunray that was involved with them at Naboo ten years before.


Darth Sin!

 

Wouldn't it be nice if we got to see Yoda at Kamino getting the Clones??

 

The concept of a phoney war would seem so unbelievable I don't think it would even occur to many members of the Jedi Council that it could actually be true. If any of them did come to that conclusion I think they'd be laughed at because the only person to gain from that would be Palpatine, but he's thought of very highly and so it would sound like some crazy conspiracy theory cooked up by the likes of Dooku. Perhaps in Ep3 Yoda and Obi-wan do come to this conclusion and decide to investigate without the support of other Jedi...

 

So when an army of one million highly trained, combat ready clones is ordered in your name, paid for and just ready for you to take, how unbelievable is it that the war you are fighting in with said clones, is a phoney one???