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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT is Vader's birth a mistake of Obi-Wan and Yoda?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Lord Sith Harloxzz, Sep 21, 2017.

  1. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    The word Yoda used was "conquer" Vader; that certainly implies more than just facing an enemy. It means fighting and defeating them.. And when Luke said he couldn't kill Vader, Kenobi said, "Then the Emperor has already won." Add to this that both Yoda and Kenobi considered Ani to be dead and gone, thus there was no one to redeem. There was just an enemy to fight and defeat. Finally, there is never any indication in the movies by the Jedi that Sith Lords can be turned back. Yoda said, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

    The meaning is clear: Vader had to die, and Luke had to kill him. Actually, physically kill him.
     
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  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    If you look at the behind the scenes discussion in The Making of ROTJ book, Lucas actually talks about what Obi-Wan means when he says Luke must be willing to kill Vader. He seems to think it's important that it not come across as if Obi-Wan is trying to send Luke on an assassination mission. Lucas says what Obi-Wan means is that Luke must accept that, in the course of defending himself from Vader, he might be forced to kill him. If Luke can't accept that, then he won't make it out alive.

    I'd post the relevant passages but I lost my copy of the book awhile ago and haven't replaced it yet.
     
  3. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    After what happened on Mustafar and afterwards, I doubt Kenobi would support Luke beating the daylights out of Vader and then saying, "Okay, you've had enough. I win. Make like a tree and leave." This was war, Vader was the enemy, and the enemy gets killed.

    Fortunately, Luke saw the situation somewhat differently...
     
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  4. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Exactly — there was no saving Vader, he was too corrupted, too evil. As far as they were concerned, Luke had to let go of any attachment relating to Vader being his dad and kill the bastard.
     
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  5. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Ultimately, it was always up to Anakin to choose his own path. He chose poorly.
     
  6. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Funny how those of you who use this argument have to use mental gymnastics to put new meanings into words. It would have been very easy for the writers to exchange the word "confront" for die/murder/kill, but they purposely did not. The language is purposely vague. Your simply putting meaning that isn't there. Yoda had no problem using harsh terminology when it was his intent ("destroy the Sith, we must") in this instance he did not. Perhaps in a wiser sense than Kenobi he knew that Luke needed to seek his own path, as Qui-Gon had, rather than just be a living weapon to point-and-destroy, which is what got the Jedi where they are in the first place.
     
  7. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    So, then why did they object when Luke did choose his own path of rescuing his friends, then refusing to kill his own father? Why didn't they say, "Well, OK, then." No mental gymnastics are needed. As I've posted elsewhere, it's like saying that, because Col. Lucas didn't actually say, "Kill Kurtz", that Willard was supposed to just give him a stern talking to. Again, the Jedi and the Sith were at war, by the admission of both parties. And both parties wanted Vader dead. Again, though, Luke saw through both arguments and chose correctly.

    And, again, why wouldn't they just tell him immediately, "Vader is your father, " rather than lie to him so he'd not realize just who it was he was supposed to kill until it was too late?
     
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    They didn't. Kenobi warned him to be wary of the Emperor's powers. Then at the end, they were all happy smiling ghosts, they were't saying "WTF I told you to kill Vader!"
     
  9. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    That's because they realized they were wrong, Luke was right, Ani was still there in need of motivation for redemption, and it all worked out. Sorry, but I can't accept that everything Kenobi and Yoda did was just some ploy to get Luke to bring Ani back into the Light, when everything points to Luke being the only one who believed it possible.
     
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  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Nobody asks you to accept anything. You saw the movie, heard the dialogue and transformed it into your own thing. That's fine.
     
  11. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016

    You're the one implying Yoda and Obi wan disagreed with what Luke had to do. Prove it. You cant. Simple as that. There is ZERO evidence that Yoda wanted him to do one thing while Obi Wan wanted him to do another. Zero. If there was a massive difference than it would have been addressed. Instead Obi Wan clearly states he wants Luke to kill Vader which is what Yoda wants to. He wants him to confront and kill him to.
     
  12. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    But for some reason he just says confront. Hmm. That makes sense. Whenever I want someone to do two things, I also just say one thing and expect them to assume the other as well.:rolleyes:
     
  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    But for some reason he just says confront. Hmm. That makes sense. Whenever I want someone to do two things, I also just say one thing and expect them to assume the other as well.:rolleyes:

    There is no implication. He said what he said. You're the one inserting new meanings to words. In you're twisted reality, confront apparently means kill.
     
  14. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    Okay, then the next question is, what then? Given the circumstances, what precisely do you believe Yoda meant by "confront"? What exactly was Luke supposed to do?
     
  15. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    With all due respect, I'm not a human dictionary. If you have the intelligence to find and contribute to this forum, you can also find the meaning of words.
     
  16. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Here is the extended screenplay from ROJ (including the parts that were deleted from the final film):

    YODA (shakes his head)
    Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then,
    only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

    LUKE I can't do it, Artoo. I can't go on alone.

    BEN (OS) Yoda will always be with you. (!!!)

    BEN I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be
    done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

    LUKE I can't do it, Ben.

    BEN And now,
    you must face Darth Vader again!

    LUKE I can't kill my own father.

    BEN Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

    LUKE But you can't let her get involved now, Ben. Vader will destroy her.

    BEN She hasn't been trained in the ways of the Jedi the way you have,
    Luke... but the Force is strong with her, as it is with all of your
    family. There is no avoiding the battle. You must face and destroy
    Vader!

    The way I read these script excerpts, Yoda appears to suggest that Luke has to "confront" or "face" Vader while it is exclusively Obi-Wan who suggests that this implies killing Vader.

    It's also a bit odd that Obi-Wan tells Luke that Yoda will be with him, but not Kenobi. It almost seems as if Obi-Wan has agreed with Yoda to play "devil's advocate" while Yoda perhaps considers that Luke will find other means to handle the situation.

    Also, Yoda is the one who mentioned Leia as the "other" hope first, but he must be aware that Leia couldn't possibly fight Vader, so it does seem that Yoda's plan is and remains that one of Anakin's kids will make him return from the Dark Side (but of course, at this stage of the screenplay and film the idea can't be explicitly mentioned as I would give away the possible film's conclusion...;))
     
  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    This thread title made me think either Obi-Wan or Yoda didn't use contraception [face_sick]
     
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  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    "The truth is, son, you were an accident. But there's not a day goes by that we don't count our blessings. Except the day we got made redundant."
     
  19. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    With all due respect, I was asking for your interpretation. There's no need to get snarky about it.
     
  20. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    If he was pretty much doomed to fall from being trained too late a big part of the blame should go to those who insisted on and decided to train him at that stage.
     
  21. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    If you speak english, there is nothing to interpret. There is no hidden meaning. He said exactly what he meant. Those of you who are arguing that Yoda secretly meant "kill" are the ones inserting hidden meanings where there are none.
     
  22. theraphos

    theraphos Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016
    How are you getting any of that from what I said or quoted/described from the book when the whole point is that Anakin was capable of making his own choices and chose wrong?
     
  23. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Personally, I don't think a passage from an EU book where one character expresses his opinion ends the argument. I think the extent to which Anakin's fall depends on the failures of his upbringing or his own choices is meant to be a question without a conclusive answer, which people can debate endlessly.
     
  24. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    An adults actions are their own responsibility. Anyone who argues otherwise is...clueless.
     
  25. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    *sigh* Fine. Whatever.