main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Senate Israel/Palestine

Discussion in 'Community' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Jan 4, 2009.

  1. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    The similarities are skin deep. There's a world of difference between Israel and Pakistan. Pakistan has the Baluchistan separatists, the North-west insurgency, an intelligence service only nominally loyal to the central government, and a huge external threat in India, whose moves in Kashmir are very worrisome. Just because they have some superficial similarities doesn't mean they're really all that similar.
     
  2. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Palestinians get $0 per day in military aid from the US.
     
  3. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Best if we cut all military aid. Like Obama opened up drone warfare in Pakistan which has done nothing but increase extremism. military aid or military involvement is making things worse and worse. Why are we even in Jordan? We keep building up troops, there has been fear of joint action against Syria since 2013, with another increase in 2018.

    I appreciate the blunt and chilling statement there.
    stuff as simple as infrastructure show how "serious" Israel is about two-states. It would be a year before another invasion happens, and in the meantime Palestinians would literally not be able to access most of their own state
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
    SuperWatto likes this.
  4. Lordban

    Lordban Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    It's the 2012 map, too. It's grown worse since.
     
  5. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    The like April 2020 map is different from the one as we speak. The virus has been a good tool for suppressing populations and taking aggressive action
     
  6. anakincol

    anakincol Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2009
    They don't have a military to aid. The PA has the PASF(Palestinian Security forces) as the closest thing. Gaza has a terrorist group.

    The united states military does get benefits from the funding of the Israeli, Jordanian, Egyptian, and Pakistani militaries that was not in my last post as American equipment is tested by all those nations, intelligence is shared(though Pakistani intelligence agency is a whole issue in itself) .

    Prior to last year the United States spent 60 million a year on security assistance to the Palestinian security forces in the west bank.

    This was ended because Congress passed a law that stated the government in the could be sued in American courts for damages in the event of the death of American citizens in terror attacks committed by militants.

    BBC article with quotes from senior Palestinian officials(autocorrect keeps screwing up the guys name)

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47095082

    Israel vocally opposed the law as this program was one of the few bright spots in Israel- PA relations

    In non military aid, trump cut a lot in a effort to force the Palestinians to the negotiating table back in 2018 which failed spectacularly and I do not agree with. Prior to that the United States was the single largest donor to the UNRWA.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
  7. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    wth

    You actually want to debate it?

    10 MILLION A DAY, MAN
     
    vncredleader likes this.
  8. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    Yeah but that'll get ignored because 'terrorism'.

    Meanwhile, beautiful cities like Tel Aviv vs refugee camps, so everything's equal, right?
     
  9. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    It's about 6 to 7 times as much as Puerto Rico gets.

    I actually triple-checked that number. I'd seen it before but I still couldn't believe it.
     
  10. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    The PA is Israeli. It is not autonomous and is just about as representative or for Palestinians are the Bureau of Indian Affairs is for Native Americans. We dont give aid to Palestine, we let Israel freaking blockade them, we let Israel literally prevent them from fishing in their own waters, we let medical aid be restricted. Giving aid to the PA is like saying that you are giving aid to occupied France by giving arms to the Vichy Government.

    Also Hamas won because israel and the US rigged the election in order to hurt the PLO, then decided to do a coup, which led to Hamas becoming hardline due to peace clearly never being an option. Is bombing people's homes, imprisoning them in an open-air prison, restricting access to hospitals, blockading them, etc NOT terrorism? Palestine did not consent to the PA, it is not theirs

    https://electronicintifada.net/blog...pation?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

    a fantastic interview with a Palestinian activist which goes into some depth on the PA.


    The idea that PA aid is anything other than aid to Israel is insane. it is the Indian Imperial Police, or more to the point, the Palestine Command and British High Commissioner of Palestine and Transjordan during the Mandate era.

    That's not self-rule or theirs in any way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
  11. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    It does nothing now but long-term Israel is screwed with either one or two state solution.

    Two state can only happen by dealing with the settlements, which in turn means dealing with individuals who believe a 6,000 year prior claim should be honoured now. No Israeli politician of any kind has the nerve to really do this. The last one who might have? Got assassinated. Practically Israel has no way out of the current hole it has dug itself.

    One state? That wrecks Israel's population balance, which was this precarious balance of being both a Jewish state and a democracy and it won't be able to be both in the future.

    But for now? The same pattern of activity that has gone on for the last 20+ years will continue.
     
    vncredleader likes this.
  12. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Israel is trying to outbreed Arabs, it has gotten to a point of just broad white supremacy even beyond any ethnic or religious Jews. Heck they brought in Ethiopian Jews and sterilized them cause they are an ethnostate. So long as Israel has powerful allies and nukes, they will never have to compromise, but they also need Palestinians cause much of their production, including in "Israeli territory" is done by Palestinians who are legally not allowed to unionize or have any real rights. Palestine can only really sell agricultural products which only Israel will buy, etc. It is apartheid in every sense, right down to the economic core
     
  13. anakincol

    anakincol Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Not debating anything.

    I want significant cuts to US military aid to Israel but I also want cuts to other nations that get large military aid like Egypt and Jordan. That money could better be spent helping Americans with issues like poverty.

    The Palestinians cannot get military aid because they do not have a military. The US did fund and train their security forces for the PA till 2018. Hamas is openly hostile to the United states why would the US give Gaza any aid while Hamas is in power there.

    There where getting financial and diplomatic aid. They rejected further aid from the US because they did not agree with Congress passing ACTA( a law while not targeted directly at the Palestinians, opened them up to lawsuits if groups like the Al Aqsa Marytrs brigade killed US Citizens)

    Both sides are are crappy(really wanted to use the equivalent expletive). The leaders are both sides are terrible people.

    Anytime anyone suggests the Palestinians aren't angels they get shouted down in this thread. International politics is about mutual interest it has been in the United States interests to have strong ties to Israel.

    Do they deserve what happened. No. They deserve to live in Peace. But so do the Israelis.

    In a perfect world we would have had a two state solution, I don't think its possible outside of some miracle on both sides where their is significant changes in there leadership.

    I remember why stopped posting on this thread a while back and regret doing so again.I am just a glutton for punishment I guess

    Good bye, I will stick to the tv/movies/tabletop threads
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
  14. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    That's right, if you say a number of debatable things and then conclude with "I'm outta here!", you're not debating, you're just clogging up the thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
    Point Given and vncredleader like this.
  15. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    when genocide and ethnic cleansing are the policy, there is no option for peace. Also whose fault is it that Palestine doesn't have a military or that Hamas is against the people who invaded and assisted the invaders after Hamas democratically won? One side has cruise missiles, the other has kites with firecrackers
     
    SuperWatto likes this.
  16. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Alright time for another thread jump.

    Okay yeah, de facto, Israel controls the Palestinian territories. And yes, we've all heard the two-state solution is dead. But so far, nobody is ready to take the leap and say we're going for the one-state solution, that the West Bank should be integrated into Israel. If that happens and Israel persists in its mistreatment of the Palestinians, then yes that would be apartheid. But to call it apartheid before the one-state solution happens...that sounds to me like jumping the gun, and either inadvertently or deliberately pushing towards the one-state solution before we're actually ready for it.
     
  17. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I'm going to continue to maintain that analogies here are about how things currently are, and thus the apartheid analogy works. This doesn't mean we've given up on the two state solution.
     
    Lowbacca_1977 likes this.
  18. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    I feel like the problem with what you're saying is that the land grabs and annexation would be perfectly fine, so long as Israel treats the Palestinians nicely, and keeps them well-fed and happy. It would be like if America were to annex Ontario, against the wishes of Ontarians, but we gave them all American citizenship and all the same rights we have. Would that be okay?
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
  19. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I don't see how what I'm saying suggests that it's okay.
     
  20. Lordban

    Lordban Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    For my part, I was just being a realist: de facto, Israel is an apartheid state that has informally annexed the West Bank. At this point, arguing about whether a negotiated two-state solution or a negotiated one-state solution is no longer relevant. A two-state solution is only feasible after displacing by force 600,000 people against the will of a nuclear-capable state. And with an overwhelming majority of Israel's population rejecting equal rights for Palestinians, a one-state solution requires either a revolution or an internal takeover.

    Unless either happens and succeeds, for the foreseeable future, Israel will remain an apartheid state.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
  21. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Well that's Hawaii. And all the Native American reservations.
     
  22. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    I'm not saying you meant to, but I think there's some implications here to using (what I think is) a flawed analogy.

    I still think the de jure and de facto distinction matters. Is Israel abusing the citizens of a foreign nation? Or is it abusing its own citizens? If it's the latter, then that means we've already decided the political question of whether the West Bank will remain independent or not.
     
  23. Lordban

    Lordban Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    The distinction between de jure and de facto really doesn't matter on the ground when a bulldozer comes to raze your house and barns, leaving your flocks to die and leaving everything you still own to rot under the first desert rains. The reality is apartheid. And the fact it's not a de jure state of affairs only makes the state of Israel an even worse criminal.
     
  24. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    But you haven't explained *how* that's an implication.
     
    Lowbacca_1977 likes this.
  25. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
    Israel is abusing both. There are Israeli citizens who are Palestinians and who are treated like second class citizens because they are not Jewish. For example, Israeli citizens are eligible for land grants from the Jewish National Fund but to be eligible you have to be Jewish and have completed your conscription national service. Arab Israelis cannot be conscripted and are otherwise prevented from completing national service so no Arab Israeli citizens can access the JNF. One rule for Jewish citizens and one rule for Arab citizens. Israel is the “Jewish State” so being a “Palestinian” citizen means you are fundamentally ****ed if you want to access government services.

    Palestinians that live in the Occupied Territories have a complicated citizenship status. Some have Jordanian, Syrian or Lebanese citizenship with PA “passports”, many still have “refugee” status and are stateless and have no citizenship at all.

    In either case, they’re treated like scum and “apartheid” is a generous description of it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
    Lordban likes this.