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Senate Israel/Palestine

Discussion in 'Community' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Jan 4, 2009.

  1. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Because the solution to apartheid in South Africa was to dismantle that system and give all citizens equal rights. What is the solution to the situation in the West Bank? If we do the same thing there, then that's accepting Israeli sovereignty over the West Bank and it's the one-state solution. If instead, Israel withdraws from the West Bank, then that's the two-state solution. Like I said, this is a political question, and as of this moment we haven't committed to the one-state solution yet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
  2. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Why should the solution to two different apartheids in two different countries be the same?
     
  3. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
    South Africa has a single legal system which simply legislated apartheid. Apartheid could be dismantled by repealing the legislation. The same is not true for the West Bank. Much of Israeli law does not apply to the entirety of the West Bank and there is plurality of legal systems and laws in play, including Israeli law for the settlers and Israeli military laws and orders which apply to some of the Palestinian population, together with pre-1967 Jordanian laws depending on where you live based upon the division of the West Bank into Areas A, B & C by the Oslo Accords. Much of the oppression faced by Palestinians in the West Bank is that the Israeli settlers and the IDF who are their military legal rulers (military commanders) ignore Israeli law and military laws and military orders when it concerns Palestinians. It's a huge ****ing mess.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
    Lordban likes this.
  4. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Ugh, am I not being clear or something? Not sure it's worth continuing the argument...

    I'm just saying that apartheid, as I understand it, is a state oppressing its own citizens domestically. If we transplant that term over to Israel, then it means the oppression of the Palestinians is a domestic issue, and therefore the West Bank belongs to Israel.
     
  5. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Israel absolutely thinks the West Bank belongs to it and makes it's decisions as such. The people who instituted apartheid in South Africa were the descendents of foreign colonists, so I don't get why you're trying to make this a domestic vs foreign thing. As it stands right now, Israel is in control of the West Bank, and it's encircled Gaza like an open air prison. What does it matter if it's "domestic?" This classification argument helps nobody.
     
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  6. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
    Apartheid is more about segregation. Separation. Blacks.Whites. Christians. Jews. Arabs. Whatever. Israel has Jewish and Arab citizens which are segregated by laws which treat them differently. The West Bank is pretty much defined by segregation, geographically and ethnically.
     
  7. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Yes, Israel thinks that. But what do we think? Or how about the Palestinians themselves? If we frame this as a domestic issue, then that means we've accepted Israel's definition of the West Bank being part of Israel. Do we accept that, or not?
     
  8. Lordban

    Lordban Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    Not necessarily. All you have to accept is that it's how they rule the West Bank in practice (Israel actually does not define it that way at this point). You're still free to disagree and/or reject what Israel actually does in the West Bank.
     
  9. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    yeah this is the important point. israel does not consider it a border. if it was then their blockade would be a war crime. Palestine is not recognized as a nation by the country that is actively occupying and subjugating. Israel does not get to decide Palestine changes from a nation to just an apartheid part of Israel whenever it chooses, and both are crimes against humanity
     
  10. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    [​IMG]
    someone gonna explain to me why Marshall Islands and Nauru voted against?
     
  11. anakincol

    anakincol Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2009
    They do business with Israeli companies. Particularly with for water desalination technology both important for island nations that need more fresh water than they can naturally get.
     
  12. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Another factor; the Marshall Islands and Micronesia are also both US associated states. Honestly surprised Palau only went with the abstention here.

    Though of note is that Kiribati (abstention) and Nauru (voted against) both rely on Australia for national defense, and Australia abstained.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  13. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Yeah Australia trying to get in on America's hegemony of being the biggest reactionary nation is impressive. They have the client states and everything
     
  14. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
    Australia is basically a puppet of the US as we rely on the US for protection against China and Indonesia. We are basically just a little lapdog with no real independent thought other than keeping the US happy.
     
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  15. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Darn right.

    This does just make Nauru just an American client state with extra steps.
     
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  16. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
    I like to use the terms "first tier" client state and "second tier" client state. Nauru is also serves as Australia's main offshore immigration detention center where we lock up and mistreat and abuse foreign asylum seekers and others but not on our own soil. I believe a deal was done with the Obama administration for the US to "resettle" people in detention at Nauru to the US, much to Trump's disgust.
     
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  17. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    client state-ception

    "resettle" sends chills up my spine. Also wait is that the concentration camp island Australia has that I have heard about? The one on which refugees have self immolated or something in order to protest?

    I find it insane how Americans act like Australia or Canada are significantly or even slightly better when it comes to refugees and especially indigenous people. People from those nations don't act that way, but Americans who know we did horrible things still want that stupid lie they got taught in school to be true. They want a colonial imperialist nation that is woke or something. As if capital extraction can ever be progressive or decent
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
  18. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    It should be noted that this might have something to do with us having an extremely evangelical Prime Minister. The majority of Australians support Palestine self-determination.
     
  19. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    It's funny how, whenever the populace believes in something good, you still get governments in democracies who promote the exact opposite. Universal Healthcare in the US, for example. I've yet to see a situation where the populace believes in something abysmal but a democratically elected government holds the better policy.
     
  20. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Eh, human rights in the prison system is something I think that a significant percentage, and perhaps a majority, don't care about, but government obligations means it's upheld by the judiciary.
     
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  21. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Death penalty in the US?
     
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  22. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Anti-Segregation sentiment became the rule in DC before the rest of the country.
     
  23. Lordban

    Lordban Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    Yet that's exactly how the monarchy fell in France for the first time - outside of Paris, not much of the country wanted an end to the monarchy in August 1792, but the national assembly did.

    ... okay, I didn't play fair there [face_whistling]
     
  24. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    https://news.gallup.com/poll/1606/death-penalty.aspx
    you think to highly of us dude
     
  25. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Yeah, that's the point, both with headlines like "Biden seeks to end executions as Justice Department plans 3 more" and California having not actually executed anyone since 2006, even though support for the death penalty has remained longer (I think people are preferring life in prison over death now, but still don't object to death, per se).