Senate Israel/Palestine

Which of his questions would you like me to start with? You can pick two or three if you'd like, not just one.

You're tacitly, or maybe not so tacitly, talking about something that would constitute an ethnic cleansing when you talk about how you think the Palestinians should all leave Israel while not actually objecting to the factors they would be trying to get away from

 

If you want to share your insights or point me to where they are written, I will read them.

If you want me to read some article somewhere, I will do that.

Obviously, you are deeply offended.

Remember that maintaining peace is important.

Obviously, this conversation cannot be continued. We are not debating whether droids in SW have individuality anymore.

Those are your words, not mine. Your cause and effect is all over the place and then you expect me to somehow be on the same page with you. I am nowhere near that. People need to do what they can to stay safe. Sometimes that means leaving their home country. You have jumped from this Israeli law from 2017-2018 that resembles a proclamation to this. I'm not going there.

By the way, it was @DarthPhilosopher who kept up this insistence to discuss the Israeli law from 2017-2018 that resembles a proclamation. Now you are seeking to connect that law to ethnic cleansing. You are both arguing in bad faith and inspiring animosity as you do so.

I seek to inspire peace, reconciliation, and prosperity and seek new solutions to old problems. These are all old problems we are speaking of; nothing is new. There isn't a new tide that is about to overtake everyone. You are imagining all these cause and effect relationships and centering your arguments on the worst case scenarios. When you do that for a topic like this, you could actually make someone believe the worst case scenario is inevitable.

 

I doubt anyone is offended. You’re just frustrating because you won’t clearly engage.

 

Maybe someone else can engage you and answer your questions. @Lowbacca_1977 offered to answer some of your questions. You can test out your questions on Lowbacca 1977. I'm sure he or she will offer different answers than mine.

 

Why would I pose those questions to him? They were in response to your comments.

You suggested that it may be better for the Palestinians to leave rather than resist. That’s why people are suggesting you support ethnic cleansing.

Do you actually know anything about this topic or are you flying by the seat of your pants?

 

You're the one that asked someone else to answer his questions because you felt they were seemingly too difficult/complex to address; what would be an example of one of those questions?

 

The outcome you have suggested needs to be avoided. You are the one suggesting that outcome. I pray for peace.

If you look at solutions and have faith that people can get along, you should find that people can discuss this topic without jumping to that extreme.

I have already answered his questions over several pages. Now it is your turn. You said you would answer his questions. Now it's your turn. Prepare to suffer the torment of @DarthPhilosopher 's endless barrage of questions.

It might be good for them to leave and then return when it's safe. Avoiding armed conflict is the goal.

There is a crises room somewhere that you can sit in. That is where you should take your discussion points for this topic. You are really, really extreme in the points you are trying to make. I will pray for you.

 

There isn't a single Palestinian in existence who would choose living under Israel's boot over @DarthPhilosopher's "endless barrage of questions."

 

In other words, you’d rather peace at any cost, even if that means (assuming that Israel doesn’t change its policy) Palestinians fleeing their homes under the pressure. This puts the onus upon the victim of an injustice to yield. It’s inherently unfair and is advocating for what MLK describes as a ‘negative peace.’

You’re not even answering Low’s point. This is why questions are continuously posed to you. You don’t answer questions in the first place.

Thanks for attempting to gaslight me.

Btw, resist doesn’t necessarily mean armed conflict. The fact you jumped to that conclusion says a lot about what you’re trying to tilt towards here.

 

Again, which questions? This is an incredibly simple question that you've been unable to answer in multiple posts of yours now.

What is one question about the Israel/Palestine situation that you feel is too complicated to answer, but that you were asked here? Not asking you to answer it, just for you to provide the question that you think proves your point that the questions are too complicated because you don't think anyone could answer it satisfactorily.

 

Ask @DarthPhilosopher . I'm done. like I keep saying.

Maintaining peace is what is important given the delicate balance of the situation over there. And of course, it's not new. If a group reacts too strongly, they risk bloodshed. We all know that one act of violence brings yet more acts of violence. All we can do is try to minimize the bloodshed...and pray for peace.

 

Where have I advocated violence?

 

Your inability to point to a single question that you thought was too difficult seems to indicate, by your omission, that you do not actually think any of the questions asked was unfair. As you can't point to a single question as an example of your complaint.

I can't ask DarthPhilosopher for which questions *you* thought were too complex or complicated to answer. More to the point, if I ask DarthPhilosopher, and I'm told "None, they were all simple questions and Tython just won't answer them" would that then also represent your view? Because if you're saying I'm supposed to ask someone else about this, then you should presumably also endorse whatever answer they provide.

 

Tython won't answer Low's question about not answering my questions. Instead Low should ask me the question. He's done (but not before this last comment, which will lead to more questions).

We're in a Question Loop.

 

I have a final question for you @DarthPhilosopher

How can you sit there and torture yourself with this stuff all day? I have seen you do this many times on here. You are putting yourself through torture and then dragging other people into your self-torture.

 

"Why have you tortured yourself by talking with me all day?"

For me it's the same reason why people watch fail complications. It's fun watching people fall on their face.

 

As someone who has studied the details of how it was possible to get the tacit assent of many European peoples for the Shoah, this has been a chilling four pages to read.

 

Alright, then as it's the preferred method from @Tython Awakening , we'll do it this way @DarthPhilosopher were any of your questions unfairly complex and could not have been answered either simply or directly?

Tython will, it seems, agree with whatever answer you give, even if it contradicts their earlier statements.

 

Please stop mentioning me in this thread. I do not agree with the following: "agree with whatever answer you give"... or whatever that means. I can't tell what that means. I might read Lowbacca 1977's responses out of interest but I will not respond further. Over the past two days, you guys have proven you can't discuss this topic in a civil manner. And @DarthPhilosopher I offered to read material that you want me to read.

It's in history books, documentaries, and museums. We all know.

 

Well I think the questions were fair.

Regarding civility, you called people antisemitic and said that I needed a safe room. From the get go you’ve obfuscated at every turn.

So that I may better understand - is English your first language? Because your reading comprehension is quite bad, and if it’s not your first language I fully understand the difficulty which you may be having.

 

Agreed with it? it was your idea in the first place.

I asked you a question about what you thought was a hard question, and you said that @DarthPhilosopher would answer that for you. I would've much rather heard it from you which question you thought was too complex to provide a simple or direct answer, but you said that I should ask him about which question you thought was too complex instead (and wouldn't answer the question yourself). Why would you say to ask him which questions *you* personally thought were too complex or not if you don't think his answers can stand in in your behalf.

To analogize it, it'd be like someone leaving a table at a restaurant saying someone else will take care of ordering for them, then when they get back complaining that they never said that they'd eat what something someone else ordered.

 

No, I'm sorry, but most people really don't understand how the Shoah could have happened, despite all of the information easily accessible.

And I can say that you, in particular, do not understand. Here's a quote from you, with just one word changed, that proves you can't put yourself into that context:

Like the vast majority of Palestinians today don't have the means to live the occupied territories, the vast majority of the Jews of yesterday could not have afforded that either. And today, like yesterday, there will be plenty who deplore the plight of the oppressed but certainly won't open their borders or pay to ferry millions of refugees.

And, let's face it, it's already an extremely complicated question when the will exists anyway; just look at how Germany still isn't done "absorbing" the million Syrian refugees they took in 5 years ago, despite being one of the richest and most capable countries in the world. Over a hundred thousand permanent homes are still lacking, and hundreds of thousands of jobs, despite the ease with which German law permitted low-paid work and with which it still enables the gig economy.

So no, it's not time for Palestinians to relocate. It isn't possible for them to relocate; just like the Jews of yesterday, the Palestinians of today neither have the money nor a possible destination.

And unlike the few Jews of yesterday who could afford to make Aliyah and find a British government grudgingly willing to let them settle in their ancestral home, today's Palestinians are living in their ancestral home, under an Israeli government that barely tolerates letting them stay there and is working towards making that impossible eventually.

 

Wow, so passive-aggressive, condescending, and troubling.

You support evicting people whose family has lived on their lands for generations/centuries, turning them into homeless refugees and breaking human rights and international law by denying them a state, to make room for settlements by a government that doesn’t give them equal rights, for the sake of “peace.” Since you just love the inappropriate Star Wars metaphors, do you think Princess Leia and the Rebels should have just left the Galaxy or gone somewhere else, for the sake of peace? Don’t actually answer that. But consider the point I’m making.

Question: have you read up on the 2006 Israel-Lebanon War?

Hezbollah was not part of Lebanon’s government at the time. They killed a few Israeli soldiers and captured a couple more. Israel responded by attacking the civilians in Lebanon, intentionally targeting civilian targets, and their government at the time said they weren’t trying to be proportionate. Was that fair? Was that justice? Is that the sign of a good neighbor? If you haven’t read about it, here’s a summary:

Also, what do you think about the government of Israel proclaiming it’s fundamentally Jewish? That even if Muslims became a majority there, or Christians, or Arabs, or from any other ethnicity or religion, that they wouldn’t be given equal rights and that they are Jewish first and don’t put democracy or human rights first? What do you think of how they unfairly treat black Israeli citizens and refugees who identify as Jewish from ancient roots going back to King Solomon’s ties to Ethiopia?

 

You are not the only person who understands how that happened. You are wrong to write that you know more about this than everyone else. You are being pretentious.

You quoted me and changed a word or words in my quote. Why? That is no longer a quote if you made an alteration.

I have met some Palestinians who have relocated. Have you? I live in a major city. They are not all the same. You can't paint them with broad strokes and claim they are in their final desperate hour. Do you actually care about these people as individuals? The fear-mongering you present in this post is self-serving and could actually mislead someone.

Yes, I remember that.

No, I do not support evicting people and treating them in that manner. Those are your words, not mine. Did you miss where I wrote that avoiding armed conflict should be the goal?

I'm sorry but the people in this thread have written as if they prefer to see armed conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians, above and beyond what has come before. That is violent rhetoric, passive-aggressive, and disrespectful to human life. You should look at your own flawed views you just expressed when you were so bent on attacking mine.

The value to human life is greater than someone's attachment to a quadrant of land. My problem with the people in this thread is that you are cheering for escalated armed conflict in the middle east beyond what already exists. Your views sadly reflect this and are no different than those I have dealt with today.

 

I never claimed to be the only person who understands how that happened, nor that I know more about this than anyone else. Maybe it is pretentious of me to assert that I do not come from nowhere, but I have looked at the Shoah from many different angles, notably the atmosphere, the logistics, the language used to obfuscate it, the humans who actually participated (and not just the SS; the journalists, the train drivers, the functionaries...)

I changed exactly one word, and stated explicitly why. The word changed should be obvious.

Yes, actually, so have I. But that's anecdotal; it's one story among millions. Which is why I pointed out what happened / is happening for the vast majority. And I do because I care about these people as individuals.