Discussion in 'Community' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Jan 4, 2009.
I age greatly every time you speak.
No I just think if Hamas or fatah do become a state government of there own and Israeli does indeed ends the occupation, there might be a nation vs nation war.
It just would not be army vs proxy terrorist groups.
As much as Israeli government is to blame so are the militant extremists coming from Hamas and fatah too.
Yeah, what if the Palestinians got so powerful that they put a naval blockade into place, or bulldozed the homes of Iraelis or tried to encroach on Israeli territory by building settlements? That'd just be the worst.
Not only would Israel have the moral high ground in that situation, but there is no way that Israel’s military would lose that war (or the Palestinians would risk losing their state again).
By rejecting Fatah/PLO forming a government for a sovereign Palestinian state, you reject part of the 1993 Oslo agreements, and because you have no viable alternative (and there isn't one), you effectively reject them entirely. And by rejecting on principle the establishment of a Palestinian state because it might lead to war, the only viable solution left with your position is the annexation of the occupied territories by Israel.
This results in one of four outcomes: a non-Jewish state, an apartheid state, the systematic relocation of Palestinians, or the extermination of Palestinians. None of which I remember you really endorsing, and relocation is the most functional outcome of rejecting the formation of a Palestinian state like you do.
As to the risk of a proper nation v. nation war, the relative positions of the actual state of Israel and of a very hypothetical Palestinian state that would have been fully sovereign for long enough and as economically prosperous as conditions might permit, there would still be no real prospect of a Palestinian state having any chance of being victorious in the military conflict (they'd start from too far behind and don't enjoy the kind of military aid the USA grant Israel, and their positions would be very unfavorable with an enclave that's impossible to defend and a main territory encircled on three sides); and by "turning off the tap" in the Jordan valley, Israel could effectively starve the hypothetical Palestinian state into surrender very rapidly.
I understand but fatah has committed war crimes against Israel and the Lebanese Christians during the Lebanon civil war.of the 70s and 80s.
Although not everybody in fatah movement are extremists but you also have to remember the 11 athletes that were killed in the 1972 Olympics in Munich as well. Fatah was Responsible for it.
Fatah/PLO doesn’t recognizes Israel right to exist or at some of the elements within fatah don’t.
Did you read anything Lordban said?
Yes. Remember the 11 casualties from 49 years ago.
Forget the 24 massacres from 73 years ago.
How he can have time to read all that when he's busy building the demonic nuke-wielding Palestinian spectre?
Edit - it suits Israeli politicians to portray their country as a poor, weak one in need of perpetual aid when the reality is it is a nuclear, regional superpower. One that has defeated all its neighbours multiple times. With Lebanon (screwed by having Israel on one side and Syria on the other) being a handy way to establish macho credentials by a bit of bombing and invasion.
If anything, while likely never being that friendly despite Jordan and Egypt signing treaties, Israel's neighbours have likely arrived at the conclusion that the best way of destroying Israel is to let it do the job itself.
I am not advocating the extermination of Palestinians and I understand that fatah is does represent the Palestinian people, but fatah was the one that started the second intifada after Arafat did reject the peace deal with Israel.
Even if Israel wouldn’t comment on its part of the bargain, Arafat didn’t give Israel a chance.
Don’t get me wrong I am critical of Israel too, but fatah is just as corrupt as the Israeli government is too.
I am only trying to be bipartisan when it comes this conflict.
How many ways can you rephrase the same goddamn post?
Who here is partisan towards Palestinian extremists groups?
How can someone be posting on a SW board and not understand why rebellions start?
I have stopped accusing everybody people on the forums for supporting extremists all I am pointing on of those who are not on the Jedi council forum and I am accusing the European Parliament and the United Nations is to also get tougher on Hamas and fatah and I wish the United Nations stop Blaming Israel for everything that goes wrong around the world.
Not once have you been critical of Israel by your own volition. Not once. Even though atrocities committed by Israel dwarf atrocities committed by Palestinians. Ten to one, if not more.
You're not trying to be bipartisan, and you're not fooling anybody by claiming you are.
Why don't you just say you're afraid? That is something all of us can understand.
Do we need to go through the figures showing Israel has been killing 30 Palestinian civilians to every single dead Israeli civilian over the past fifteen years again?
Fatah committed war crimes in the 1980s. The Likud-led governments committed war crimes in the 2010s. I don't see you calling for the dissolution of Likud. When you do, you'll have a position that justifies not wanting Fatah involved either. Until then, your position will be absolute hypocrisy.
Get back into the TARDIS, you're stuck back in 1992.
Here's two things to consider:
a) if Palestine was given independence, Israel would simply fortify the **** out of the Green Line. No Palestinian soldier will ever set foot in Israel if they don't want them to and the United States will give them an absolute security guarantee. Let's be honest about this.
b) economic prosperity on the Palestinian side is the only way to de-radicalise the population. Occupation is only making the situation worse.
This is a very dehumanizing statement. It makes it clear that you see Palestinians as insatiable monsters. You should take this as evidence of your strong feelings of prejudice against Palestinians.
Its not just an opinion but many extremists elements do want to push Israel into the sea.
I got nothing against Palestinians but I am critical of the fatah/PLO just as I am of the likud party of Israel,because fatah also committed terror and crimes against Israel citizens too,
I am half Jewish is why sometimes I am upset with the Arabs, but it doesn’t mean I support Israel’s occupation.
Keep in mind most Arab countries don’t welcome Jews or Israelis citizens into there countries either.
Do you believe that the violence would decrease if Israel was no longer a state of its own that Likud could become in charge of, and so it would be a good thing if Israel was no longer an independent state?
Re: Other Arab countries' attitude to Israel and Jews
It isn't at all good but it doesn't justify Israel's treatment of the Palestinians either, which often involves collective unjust punishment. That it also doesn't work is self-evident, because Israel's been using these failed tactics for over 30 years.
Due to the power Israel possesses, it doesn't practically matter what a bunch of extremists believe or wish to do - they are not going to succeed where multiple states failed. The only way they might pull it off is by Israel's self-destruction. There is no rational 'what if' danger that applies. Israel's going nowhere.
The two sides are nowhere near equal. By whatever metric you opt for, Israel will be way ahead and possesses all the levers of control.
If Israel did no longer exists I believe the enemies of the state would turn on each other.
Why would that be a good thing if Israel was destroyed and pushed into the sea? That’s like advocating a second Holocaust on the Jewish people only this time in the Middle East instead of Europe.
I am not accusing you of that.
As much as innocent Palestinians have been kill for decades including children, so too have Israeli children too been murdered coming from Palestinian extremists too.
1,270 Israelis and at least 10,001 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
That you couldn't even answer the question directly highlights the double standard here. You said you're equally critical of Fatah/PLO and Likud. However, you use the argument that Fatah/PLO could be in charge of a Palestinian state as to why Palestinians having a nation would be bad. You do not, however, also use the argument that Likud having the possibility of being in charge of an Israeli state as to why Israelis having a nation is bad.
It's a biased double standard if a Palestinian nation is too dangerous because of who could come to power, but an Israeli nation is not 'too dangerous' for similar reasons.
The PLO or fatah members said if they did have a nation of there own, no Jews would be allowed to live in the state of Palestine.
If Israel is to be criticized for being ethnostate too so should the PLO because they also don’t want non Palestinians in general to live there as well.
Keep in mind the PLO was a strong ally and supporters of Saddam Hussein’s Ba’ath party as well.
I also understand that bush senior and Reagan use to be allied with Saddam Hussein until the first gulf war broke out.
As when the vast majority of the the arab world including Osama bin Ladin opposed Saddam Hussein invasion of Kuwait, Arafat stood by Saddam Hussein and sent some of his fighters to support the the Iraqi army.
The issue is that you have no reservations about criticising the PLO for that, but you outright refuse to criticise Israel for it, and have defended it on the same grounds.
Whereas I'm not saying that Palstinian organizations don't have things they absolutely can be criticised for, only that your one-sided stance displays a clear bias because you defend Israel for things that you would criticise Palestinian groups for.