ST Issues connected with faith & religion in the ST

“If Luke doesn’t like the old ways of the Jedi then why doesn’t he modernize?” It’s a question asked by some who dislike The Last Jedi and to be fair it would be logical... had Johnson not made the original Jedi texts and their potential to undo any modernization a significant part of The Last Jedi.

At its heart the Luke arc post-temple destruction is reminiscent of aspects of his father’s post-temple destruction but with very different levels of responsibility for both. ROTS Anakin placed the blame for his issues on the Jedi, too. Luke has come to feel similarly. There’s comfort in both men blocking out what just happened by focusing on the problems with the Jedi. However, whereas Anakin lashed out and was directly responsible and continued to lash out, Luke pulled back and continued to. Both believing the choices they were making were right. Both misguided for different reasons related to the Jedi.

The deleted extended scene with the caretakers makes Luke’s concern especially clear: He knows what’s in those old Jedi texts and perceived them to be a similar, or an even bigger problem than some of the issues that plagued the prequel-era Jedi-ideology. Rather than lashing out as his father did, The Last Jedi shows a religious man in a crisis of faith. The film makes a point to better separate the Light side of the Force from the Jedi religion as two separate things. One being the life source that binds the galaxy together. The other an ideology with rules.

These ancient texts are, well, ancient. Just as our ancient texts here on Earth reference to social norms and concepts that feel extremely conservative and restrictive and haven’t aged well in an era of increased tolerance and personal freedoms it’s entirely possible that some of the ideas in those original texts were even more concerning than any of the issues people have criticized the PT-era Jedi for.

The existence of the texts leaves the door open for fundamentalism for the rest of time. Regardless of what Luke had done or what some new Jedi might do to modernize another can come along at any time and claim that these modern interpretations are wrong and that things need to get back to the roots citing the ancient texts literally. Luke had to know this and indeed in the extended edition and in the deleted scene he tells Rey that what’s written in those books states she must not act and that thaf the galaxy needs something different.

One of the more poignant realizations in the film eventually is the idea that all students believe they’ve grown beyond what their teachers have to offer. This statement reminds that it’s been the choices of individual students in the Jedi who made poor choices because they felt they knew better. Those are choices made by individuals. The message seems clear and is an important one for the times we live in today where the actions of any one individual immediately lead to questions of which demographic they were part of. The choices that some make in any one group (in this case the Jedi religion) is not a reflection on that entire group or any one religion but rather the poor choices of those individuals.

Luke realizes this once he has made himself available for counsel again and realizes that flaws and all... the wisdom the Jedi have acquired reminds the best guide to keep young Force users on the right path. With his horizon distraction on how to fix the problems with the organized religion he represents behind him he is able to see clearly the bigger issues right in front of his nose. This family has had this religion and this Order as a big part of their lives and TLJ explores with unflinching honesty what can happen when someone whose made faith a big part of their life has a crisis of faith following a traumatic event. Faith helps some cope. Being around friends and mentors can too. Luke chose neither for 6 years and it shook him to his core.

Aposty is often seen by many people of faith as one of the most serious issues of all. For a time one of the brightest lights representing the Light was living completely disenfranchised with his faith and disconnected to the Force itself. Had he died randomly before discovering either would he still have had passage to the Force afterlife where his father and mentors awaited him?

Ever since the original Vader redemptive arc of ROTJ observers have commented on how the Buddhism-inspired Jedi seemed to take on more of a Catholic sense of atonement with Force heaven on the line. TLJ continues that with the notion that Luke atoned to family and became one with the Light as his father had.

Anyone else spot any interesting parallels related to religion in the ST?

 

Well the ST continues to cross different faiths just like how SW came to be. There is no accident the choice of Ahch-To as Luke’s place of refuge.

If you just jumble the letters you get Cath Ho or (Kata Holos) .

Kata Holos. (Catholic originates from this)

Just imho.

MJ

 

I really hope we get some scenes of Rey absorbing the books and trying to build her new saber and a Force ghost mentor explaining aspects of old lore to her in IX.

 

I think Legends of Luke Skywalker addressed Luke’s faith and how his experianced influenced it. It paints a more nuanced and, at points, starkly different picture of how Luke viewed the Jedi and the Force.

The author clearly had SG input as well as at least a degree of access to the TLJ script while writing. Required reading, imo.

ETA: You come up witg really interesting thread topics to discuss!

 

My assumption was that by the time of the prequel era, the Jedi had deviated severely from the original Order. My take on it is that now Rey has access to the orginal sacred texts, she will realise how flawed the Jedi became and that if the Jedi Order does return physically, then it will also need to return spiritually to its roots. Most religions go through reformations where they try to get back to where they ought to be and I think if and when the Jedi do return in SW, they may be nothing like the Jedi we have come to know up until now. Of course, there is the danger that by reading ancient religious texts out of context, Rey may completely misunderstand them - a charge that can be levelled at anyone who assumes they can pick up any ancient religious book and pretend that they understand its meaning without educating themselves about the context in which it was originally written.

 

That’s exactly what Luke did post-RotJ.

I wonder if the books will actually come into play story-wise. I just don’t think they’ll have Rey continue down Luke’s path.

 

But Luke's order seemed like a continuation of what had come before - it was not based on the original Jedi lore as he never even read the Jedi texts. Now Rey has access to what the original Jedi believed, we may discover that Luke, Obi-wan, Yoda and all the prequel Jedi had deviated greatly from the Jedi path that was set out 1000 generarions ago. That's a long time to go astray. I don't think Rey will follow Luke's path at all. She will set up new order based on their ancient philosophies.

 

Does Rey even know how to read old writing of +1000 years ago? Even the new canon has instances of where that is a learned skill.
Though that probably won’t matter in Rey’s case with the way the have been writing her character.

Regarding Luke’s Jedi philosophy, it’s impossible to tell if he modernized or not, or if he went back to the roots or not, because there is not one single instance in the movie where we were educated on the differences between his Jedi order and the previous one and the one before that. His mistake with Kylo has virtually nothing to do with Jedi teachings as of we know, neither was something that was preached (or not) before.

 

I’m sure it will be explained as well as how often people in Star Wars seem capable of speak multiple alien languages. Which is to say that it likely won’t be explained. It will just be part of the fantasy world of Star Wars. We either suspend disbelief to go along for the ride or we don’t.

 

It’s not a matter of explanations, it’s more that building a world that affects the characters and vice versa fleshes out the universe (and the characters living in it) better, and things become a lot more interesting as a result. No matter how detailed your world is, if you write characters that are virtually unaffected by whatever challenges it might pose to them, then the worldbuilding it reduced to superfluous background with no meaning, and characters become dull and predictable as a result.

 

I believe Luke did set up his order like the PT version.

Despite the fact that he dismissed that institution decades ago, as per the novel. Which, of course, invites the question of why? And what did Luke learn in his travels? It wasn’t that the old Order was problematic because he had already figured that out.

Yet another reason why the backstory Matters.

 

I love to see all kinds of religions mixed together to help to inspire the ideas of Star Wars.

Force Ghosts, mind links, the Force itself, the idea of a balance between good and evil, etc, etc, etc, are a huge mix on several common themes between several different faiths, and that is an important element for Star Wars.

 

Luke realized that very early on, which is why he decided not to rebuild the Order at all (this directly from the TLJ novel).

So Luke in TLJ - and even at the time of Ben’s turn - represented a pretty bizarre and extreme regression. Intentionally, I’m sure.

 

I hope right you are.

I heard Lucas meant for the ST to focus on the spiritual nature of the Jedi. Also I find it hilarious reading your comment when your avatar is Palpatine. I literally read it in his voice!

I hope that we see what Luke spoke about explored. And the Jedi rise again with the Skywalker role made clear. We shall see. We shall see.

The Sith and the Jedi are almost the same in every way...
Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis the Wise?

 

The Jedi Order isn't about religion. It's about training people to protect, defend, and try and help people. The guidelines and rules were strict and ancient, but they needed to be as being a Jedi requires discipline and commitment. The Jedi needed those guidelines so they could handle difficult situations and defend the innocent from threats when they came. The Jedi had a huge responsibility to the galactic republic and obviously their strict guidelines worked very well if they lasted for over a thousand generations.
An everyday person in today's society can adhere to their religion conservatively as they want to as long as they don't force it on anyone else. We have a choice in whether or not to follow a religion, and if we don't want to that's fine but that doesn't mean we should care if others want to 'modernize' their values. It's their choice to believe what they want.

I have no problem with Luke wanting to change the ways of the Jedi. He's the one rebuilding the order (or was rebuilding it), so if he found flaws in the old Jedi's ideology and felt like he could improve training by doing with or without certain Jedi virtues -- then I think that's great and he should do what he believes will work.
But the guidelines of the Jedi and how they trained and learned to protect the galaxy from danger, is way different than a person's faith and how they want to personally live their own life.

 

I think that the new canon is melding them.

 

His commentary on the Jedi is entirely superfluous since, as @Palp_Faction already stated:

He never strove for any tenable solution and his entire process of mentorship is entirely skipped over, even as far as Rey is concerned. That's partially why any discussion regarding Luke as a mentor in the ST frustrates me since he neither mentions any progress he managed over the last three decades or refers to any interaction with Yoda, Obi-Wan or Anakin in those years. You'd think that his different background from many Old Republic era Jedi and how that may have affected his development (either positively or negatively) would have been a source of contemplation as he would work to pass on his knowledge to others but that's never a factor either.

This is just a huge example of how horrendously underwritten he is, to the point where I wouldn't blame someone for thinking that he is inept and slothful. Which is a shame since his greater range of characterization, specific background and overall demeanor throughout this saga poises him to be the Jedi's Martin Luther to a much greater extent than Rey.

 

There’s no evidence he didn’t read them. Yoda’s joke had more to do with how badly he suddenly wants to save them when he had spent so much time wanting to rid the world of them. I don’t doubt that he skimmed through them and that he certainly wasn’t some scholar who studied or read them thoroughly but in both the extended edition and the deleted scene he refers to the Jedi ideas inside of the books.

It’s the potential ideas in the books and their existence that has him so troubled. He knows that anything anyone tries, including him, could be undone at any time by the books themselves and all of the old ideas they contain. If he wasn’t so concerned about the books being discovered by others after he was gone and those others taking a fundamentalist approach at some point to any ancient ideas contained within he wouldn’t be there and stuck between do or do not on ending them.

Thankfully Johnson trusts the adults watching to be able to find the subtext and not hammer us over the head with every single thought running through Luke’s mind.

 

OK, this is ridiculous. You skim through a magazine on the table of a hairdresser's lounge, not through documents that belong to a sect of warrior monks that could potentially change the course of the galactic history, of which Luke happens to consider himself a part of. He has no choice in the matter.

Also, I'm not referring to Luke's laughably constructed fit of nihilism. I'm referring to the twenty years after the Battle of Endor that he spent having to actually develop a Jedi order using the knowledge of his previous masters and his own experience. Conveniently enough, you don't address how any of that doesn't play a role. After all, galactic history itself directly contradicts some of his statements regarding the Jedi. Like when he says the legacy of the Jedi is failure despite them having helped maintain a Republic for millennia while he failed within the course of decades by losing all of his values and convictions.

Oh, of course, you need only look at material such as the Canto Bight subplot where you see all of these meticulously constructed and profound revelations on Johnson's part like "animal cruelty is bad". You can just see the subtlety running through every frame, not at all blundering through the ramifications of how any of the characters in the film function. He most certainly doesn't conjure imagery that comes off as completely tone-deaf at all. A masterclass in subtext.

 

I’m honestly not sure that you’re referring to. Are you saying that you think Luke’s order should have been different? Do we know that it wasn’t? And if it was different and still failed wouldn’t that only further refinforce the lingering doubts growing within him about its place?

I find it convenient that the adage of “what have you done lately” seems to be the overriding belief of those who dislike the ST’s writing for the OT cast while so many of you expect that exact same thinking to not be front and center in Luke’s mind as he is focused for a time more so on the Jedi’s recent failures, including the PT era and that of his own. He admits later he was misguided and clearly caught up on his own family’s issues and looking out at the horizon and thinking of some grand fix to it all rather than working through the primary issue that was right in front of his nose.

It’s not nihilism if he passionately believes something else will rise since he believes the Light side of the Force and the Jedi are separate and that the idea that only the Jedi can use the Light is vanity.

Lastly, Canto Bight is aimed at prequel fans and the teen fans, IMO. The fact BB8 comes along and provides physical humor. The pristine world building. The Neverending story-like / Miyazaki-like riding of animals. The more on-the-nose political topics. That’s Johnson’s ode to the PT as far as I’m concerned.

It’s clever to write for different demos and with different audiences in mind now and then with something seen by as many people as this. Return of the Jedi did the same thing. Endor had a very different tone than the throne room scenes. Some of the ideas and humor are aimed more at the teen fans. Other aspects are more psychological and nuanced and aimed more at older fans. Johnson was wise to consider this.

 

It should have been different, yes. Also, his complete inability and tendency to prefer inaction only makes his "doubts" less sympathetic. As to whether or not it was different, that was up to Johnson to answer. He didn't.

The problem is that he's holding that sentiment up to people who have been long since dead while he was practically presented with every opportunity to make a correct choice and failed to. He wasn't burdened by centuries of tradition to not do so.

Also, the adage is appropriate considering the circumstances that the prequel Jedi faced. They had to deal with a decades long conspiracy to destroy them, a war that had thrust them into the realm of soldiery and begun dwindling their numbers and spreading them too thin as well as the full brunt of the Republic military collapsing on their heads once Palpatine's coup had begun. What was Luke's grand obstacle to overcome? His nephew's angst.

Well, I'm sure that's what he was aiming for but it still managed to contain nothing that was good about the world building in those movies.

 

Luke’s state and mindset in the movie itself lack context.

I’m sure it’ll make more sense after 9.

 

Yes, we'll get a Prequel Sequel Trilogy of Four.

 

I don’t know about IX but I suspect a Luke anthology film will do with this. Hopefully starring Sebastian Stan and then aging and ending with the temple era and turning of Ben Solo and the rise of Snoke.

Where Lucas would have numbered this saga X-XII and then done VII-IX setup episodes later the new Lucasfilm is doing prequel-style exposition via anthology films.