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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga It Is Your Destiny: What Does Star Wars Have To Say About Fate?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Nov 26, 2013.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I'm not saying that other events didn't have a factor, but it is a particular event that drives the action. That is what I'm saying.

    The whole point of the mortals being responsible is that it goes back to the symbiont circle from TPM. As Obi-wan said, what affects one affects the other. The Naboo and the Gungans were both the dominant species on Naboo and both were affected by the Federation's invasion. The Jedi and the Republic were both affected by the Sith's revenge and in turn, the Force was affected by the war and the extermination of the Jedi. It goes back to the earliest writings of ANH, where Lucas wrote that the Ashla of the Force weakened as the Jedi Bendu was destroyed, leaving only the Bogan which was the dark side. The Force itself is and always has been two sides that were in contrast to each other and in the films, that contrast is damaged and needs to be repaired.

    The human aspect of the story remains because it is about Luke and Anakin and their issues coming to light.

    True, but the closest was in the rough draft and the revised rough draft of ROTJ, where Palpatine has been lead to believe that the threat was Luke only to find out it was Anakin who was the threat.

    EMPEROR
    Obi-Wan foresaw my destruction at your hands, young Skywalker, but it seems his vision was clouded…Perhaps there is still another Skywalker. Why can I not see, could the netherworld have influenced my perception? Another Skywalker…your father!

    Even though it wasn't a prophecy in the strictest sense, he was moving in that direction without locking it down until the PT.

    That's why I've pointed out what ROTS says on the subject with Yoda and Mace's doubts.

    Indeed. It may not seem like Lucas thought it through clearly, but he did. He's just not the best communicator of stringing it together like someone more traditional in directorial capabilities.
     
  2. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I don't known if it count but, in ROTS we do see the Padme's prophetic death occur just as it does in Anakin's dream, but it was not caused by what he thought it would be. Similar to the prophecy of the Chosen One, the Jedi seem to think that he will defeat the Sith in a simple combat, when in reality it took decades of internal struggle that included him destroying the Jedi before he destroyed the Sith.
     
  3. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Okay, I think I may have just come up with something:

    We ( only one kenobi and MOC Yak Face , among others) were at one point discussing how the addition of a Will of the Force that created Anakin seems to make a big difference to some of us regarding the 'feel' of the story and the agency of the characters. But something just occurred to me: Qui-Gon says Anakin might have been conceived by the midichlorians. I don't think he says that Anakin may have been conceived by the Force itself. This might make a difference. Like so:

    -The Sith, or something they do, starts to tilt the balance of the Force such that the dark side becomes stronger. (What this means, I'm not sure - the people using it have more stamina/better powers? The specifics don't really matter in this paragraph, though.)

    -The midichlorians are the agency that create Anakin, as a response to the imbalance of the Force.

    -I guess he would be one possibility of someone who could then bring balance to the Force. Maybe the midichlorians are trying all kinds of things.

    -Anakin falls to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan refers to a prophecy that apparently has failed.

    -Anakin brings balance to the Force through getting rid of Palpatine. Someone long ago apparently used the Force to see this turn of events and write about them, referring to Anakin as The Chosen One; this is the prophecy the characters refer to. Anakin's choices are still driven by his own will. He's called the Chosen One not because the Force created him but because he is the one who destroys Palpatine. The Force itself doesn't have an agency or do anything or create anyone; saying 'it was the will of the Force' is like saying 'it was luck' or the like. "It was the way things were supposed to turn out, for that to happen."

    Thoughts? Does that change anything at all? I'm not sure...

    I guess Anakin would still either be (a) sheer incredible luck for him to be the right one to rebalance things, with the midis/the Force getting the chain of events right the very first time they tried to fix it, yet not having knowledge/control of what was truly inevitable, (b) one of many experiments, with many parentless Force-sensitives showing up across the galaxy around that same time (the other option, for a Force or midis that don't absolutely know the future), or (c) a loop, with him being created because he was the one to later fix things, which was seen in the past and led to his creation in the first place (in this case the creator agent does know the true future).
     
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  4. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    I hate loops.
     
  5. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    They're coarse and rough and irritating and they get everywhere?
     
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  6. Katarn's Beard

    Katarn's Beard Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2014
    From what I can see, the "big moments" like rebalancing the Force, are destiny. How you get there depends on your choices though.
     
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  7. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    I see your thinking but a) it still appears to point toward some sort of conscience agency - whether that be midiclorians or the Foce and b) from what Qui-Gon says to Anakin, if you 'listen' to the midiclorians then they can 'tell' you the will of the Force - so that agency would be the Force. There is no getting around the basic premise that the prophecy storyline, as envisaged here - repleat with Campbellian tropes (virgin birth, as with Mithras the bull-slayer, Dionysus, Horus etc) - relies upon an element of agency from 'on high'.

    Now, some people 'dig' that kind of thing, some don't. I'm interested in it the extent that I find it interesting in understanding the beliefs and world-view of those 'actors' of the past. Been there, done that - if I want those tales I can read Homer, Sophocles, Euripedes or Virgil.

    The OT created a new kind of mythos, the PT reverts to an older form.
     
  8. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012

    Yeah, this sez this pretty simply as to how I view the contradiction of destiny and individual choice in Star Wars. There's the broad strokes version of what is going to happen which is some set-in-stone destiny (well, mostly) but then the individual moments and choices of the individual can change how that destiny comes about (or if it even does!).
     
  9. GregMcP

    GregMcP Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2015
    I thought the message of Luke's story, and Anakin in a reverse way, was that your Fate does not have to be what you are told by others. Yoda says stay and train, but you go save your friends anyway... you make your own Destiny. For good or bad.
     
  10. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Yeah Destiny and Fate is a huge part of the Saga's general theme but the more important thing is the choice of the individual, which can even override Destiny (or walk right into it).
     
  11. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2015

    I've always regarded destiny as this - a person might be destined for some task or action in the future. It will either happen or not. But I don't believe that a person should take the trouble to ensure that it will happen., because sometimes, life or fate might surprise you.


    I don't recall the prophecy saying that Anakin was destined to destroy the Sith. How does destroying evil maintain balance. Good and evil are two sides of one coin.
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Evil isn't destroyed. It's simply put back into place where it and good are on even footing. But the Sith are destroyed as Obi-wan quotes from the prophecy and we see Anakin destroy the Sith in ROTJ.
     
  13. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    As on the other thread here:

    Lucas:

    But you have control over your destiny, you have many paths to walk down, and you can choose which destiny is going to be yours.
     
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  14. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    This is indicated by dialogue in ROTS.
     
  15. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    The problem with going by what the characters say about the Force, is that they can get it wrong also. Not to mention the fact that the "Dark Side" and "Light Side" of the Force are two different views of the same thing. The characters have their own biases, which influences their interpretations.

    This actually helps build suspense in the story, because if the characters knew /everything/, then the story would be boring because they'd all just sit around waiting for the inevitable Prophecy to be fulfilled. Even the Matrix used this when the Oracle originally told Neo that he wasn't "The One". She even gives the qualifier, " Maybe in your next life," which we find out later meant he actually had to die before becoming the one. Her statement to him actually sets him on the path to /becoming/ "the One" without him realizing it... which made much more exciting plot line, as opposed to him knowing everything that would happen ahead of time and just going through the motions until the Prophecy fulfilled itself. If we don't believe the protagonist could fail, then there's no suspense, and the movie sucks.
     
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  16. Valiowk

    Valiowk Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 23, 2000
    I've chosen to wrap my mind around this apparent contradiction in the following manner. In real life, when a person says "So-and-so was destined to do such-and-such", they really mean that the circumstances (perhaps of birth) were appropriate for someone to do something, but there is also an implicit understanding that that person put in hard work and effort to get to where they eventually got to. I interpret the apparent contradiction between the prophecy and free will in the same way: the Force sets events into motion by choosing the participants, it gently shoves events in the direction it wants, but the major actions still have to be chosen and carried out by the participants themselves. Essentially, there is an end result that the Force desires, and the Force places the background pieces in the best way it can, but the Force cannot itself force a participant to behave in a certain manner. One could say that the end result is a bet that the Force is making, a bet that things will actually turn out in the way it wants (yes, Anakin turning to the Dark Side and bringing the Jedi Order down is part of that picture). Though the prophecy, the Force lets the participants know part of the plan, but only enough of the prophecy is elucidated so that the participants don't see the entire plan and refuse to have anything to do with it from the start.
     
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  17. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Are you saying that the Force can't make people behave in certain ways, or that it doesn't want to?
     
  18. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Just a heads-up. The issues of "will of the Force" and "destiny" came up a few days ago in this new TFA thread: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/thats-not-how-the-force-works-or-is-it.50039683/page-6

    (too bad both can't be merged, as this one revolves mostly about the issue of fate and destiny. However, the TFA thread might be a candidate for the general saga section as it examines aspects of the Force previously shown in the OT and PT)
     
  19. Valiowk

    Valiowk Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 23, 2000
    Do bear in mind that this is just the best patch that I've thought of to understand this apparent contradiction, so it may have its loopholes. The way I like to think of it, the Force can't force you to do something if you don't want to, but it can hint to someone who is Force-sensitive suggestively, which would certainly have an influence on that person's opinion, and it can do things to Force-sensitive objects. Of course, then the question is, just how much does the Force want to influence (a somewhat similar question to the classic philosophical question of why God would allow evil if he exists).

    (It almost seems more fun to pretend that the Force is given a constraint on how much it is allowed to influence and has to decide how to best allocate its resources. Of course that's just going into the realm of wild imagination now. :p )
     
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  20. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    There are always outside forces influencing us in positive and negative ways, but we are ultimately in control of our own destinies.
     
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  21. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2016
    I believe as Yoda Says "Always in motion is the future, and many possible futures there are." However I also believe the force guides events for a specific purpose, and intent. It has a will, and it turns events and some actions to fit its will, that is the where the idea of "Destiny" come from, so that is an accurate term. However it still ends up with the individual how they could react to events, in some cases they will meet their destiny on their way to avoid it (Like Anakin) or they charge forward and proudly embrace it (Like Luke). But events are affected by the individuals choices.
     
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