ST J.J. Abrams (Director Of TFA & TROS) Discussion Thread—Now Finally Discussing: JJ Abrams

Exactly. That's how important it was to him. Whether it made sense after TLJ or not, JJ returned to that path

 

So not very then. thats why it feels so shoehorned. thats why the script doesn't even attempt to make sense of it. because it was just thrown in there. even though early script leaks suggested Rey wasn't actually gonna see Luke and Leia on Tatooine. she was actually gonna see ghostly shapes of her real parents. it would have been funny to then have her say she was Rey Skywalker.

 

It really seems JJ was keeping the possibility of Rey being an actual literal Skywalker open, but we may never know.


I thought this thread would fit to talk about some of the symbolism in TROS.

Firstly the opening scene calls back to ROTS with the planet Mustafar itself, and also ROTJ’s opening with three Imperial ships both above Endor/the DS2 and here again above Mustafar. We then see on the planet some of the vegetation has started to grow back, a metaphor for Anakin’s rebirth in ROTJ sprouting a seed of life on his symbolically darkest planet, even though it appeared burnt out and gone.

It seems fitting that the two wayfinders belonged to the grandparents of the two halves of the dyad - Kylo seeks Vader’s, Rey seeks Palpatine’s. Interestingly only Kylo successfully uses his before destroying the one Rey quested for, then Rey similarly uses Vader’s way finder as well. It just seems appropriate that she only holds Palpatine’s for a moment - she truly isn’t bound to her grandfather’s path. Plus the dyad is arguably a dual echo of Anakin as the chosen one, so both Ben and Rey facing Palpatine together having used Anakin’s way finder makes sense.

Kylo violently cuts down Vader cultists in the opening scene, yet later as Ben quite swiftly and humanely kills the Knights of Ren as Rey takes out Palpatine’s “Royal guards” - both Ben and Rey denouncing any connection to their dark ancestors.

Palpatine comments he “made Snoke” as we see copies of “Snoke” in vats. I’m in two minds on how much we are meant to see undead Palpatine as himself one of these dark creations. There is also the repeated theme of unnatural creation - Palpatine possibly created Anakin, turned him into Vader, created Snoke, was seemingly the main proponent to Kylo’s “creation”, and is a clone himself, as is Rey’s natural father.



Grandparental lines are quite prominent in this film.

- Kylo’s grandparents are Anakin/Vader and Padme. He succeeds in bringing a loved one back in Rey, at the cost of his own life, where Anakin and Padme inversely both simultaneously faded ultimately because of Anakin’s selfishness.


- Luke and Leia’s grandma is Shmi. Some dialogue mirrors:

Shmi: “Then we will see each other again.”
Rey: “ We will see each other again, I believe that.”
Luke: “No one is ever really gone”.

Shmi: “Anakin, this path has been placed before you, the choice is yours alone.”
Padme: “Anakin, you’re going down a path I can’t follow.”
Leia: “He’s got to follow his own path, no one can choose it for him.”
Rey: “Don’t do this… please don’t go this way.”


Shmi’s death sets Anakin on a dark path. Anakin had left her at nine but never truly let go. Whereas Leia’s death is a major catalyst in redeeming Ben; he symbolically “comes home” in place of Anakin, for all the Skywalkers. The grandmother and granddaughter have opposite roles.

And of course, Rey’s biggest obstacle in the film is her Palpatine heritage. She ultimately rejects it in favour of the Skywalker name.




Moving on from grandparental links…
There is a lot of symbolism in the fires/lava of Mustafar in ROTS for Anakin’s darkness.
Fitting then that Anakin’s rock, Padme, came from a soothing water cored planet. Again water plays a part in the Skywalker’s family arcs when Kylo and Rey duel surrounded by raging waters. When Rey’s delayed reaction to Leia’s death gives her an opening to stab Kylo she then heals him and his facial scar disappears. The water subsides to a flat calm and Kylo/Ben speaks to his father. The dark side rage is gone. Where Vader was maimed and burned in front of Obi-Wan who declares Anakin dead to him, Rey and Kylo are soaked when Rey helps redeem him and gives him his name back - “I did want to take your hand… Ben’s hand.”


Finally the ending scene had some Easter eggs. A Jawa sandcrawler like ANH, Rey sliding down a sand hill like TFA. Her golden lightsaber before fully igniting has two blue lights and a green - did she use the three Skywalker crystals?
And she buried the two legacy sabers where baby Luke was delivered at the conclusion of the PT. Cycle of birth and death.

 

Run out of time to edit.

On the water metaphor; Anakin stated in a deleted AOTC scene that he pictured the force itself as the rolling waterfalls of Naboo. And that when he was lonely he would think of the Theed palace.

Additionally, Naboo features less and less as the three PT films progress. So the femininity and flowing waters wilt as the Empire rises. Naboo in ROTS is only featured for Padme’s funeral.

Any thoughts?

 

@Daxon101
So you believe and continue to hold firmly to the opinion that it was never JJ's intention to make Rey a Skywalker, despite the fact that JJ did indeed make Rey a Skywalker?

 

I guess I’m a bit confused. Had a parental reveal been included at the end of TFA, ep 8 would have necessarily explored it. *If* a reveal was filmed, it was cut because LFL/RJ didn’t want to go that way.

Why would an entire explanation have to be included along with a reveal at the end of TFA? Why would it not be just like the cliffhanger at the end of a chapter or section in a novel? TFA was supposed to be the first third of a single story. I’m sure enough of the audience has read chapter books to understand how “one section of a story” works.”

(And that’s assuming that there weren’t originally more hints to Rey’s parentage and backstory in TFA as originally filmed, if a parent reveal was filmed.)

 

My belief is the most logical one. according to early leaks, she wasn't even meant to see Luke and Leia. it was her ghostly parents she see. so it would have been kinda mean-spirited to call her a skywalker. meaning they either changed the ending or they had several possible endings and chose which one later on. either way the "Rey Skywalker" really stands out as odd as there was no build-up to it. its just shoehorned in for us the audience.

Why is it shoehorned in? maybe because they decided to call it the skywalker saga and they killed off all the skywalkers leaving a bleak ending with a Palpatine being the surviving hero.

Did JJ want her to be a skywalker? if so he didn't make much effort. even in a sneaking in subtle layers type of way. again it would have to be assumed JJ was just a lap dog with very little control. the only director with any control was rian johnson apparently.

 

Unless JJ Abrams voice comes out of the sky explaining that Luke and Rey are related, I don't see how some random girl walking up the steps to deliver a message about the galaxy being in peril results in Luke turning around and definitively recognizing her as his long lost daughter. It doesn't flow naturally into the conversation they would have. Even if he suspected it he would have to feel crazy because the odds against it are so high, and the movies right about to end so there's not really time to explore the possibility further.

 

It’s called a “cliffhanger.”

I think you’re assuming the scenes that would follow in episode 8 and thinking they’re literally be only very specific ways of following up a cliffhanger reveal.

Thankfully, I and many other fans have thought of dozens if not hundreds of ways such a reveal could have been followed up on, so it wouldn’t have mattered if you in particular are stumped.

Consider the OT and the chances that Vader would have encountered both his long-lost children in the span of a few hours - inconceivable!

I think you’re forgetting that this is a space fantasy and that the ST was not obligated to be any more realistic than the other Saga installments.

(I also think you might be forgetting that a force-connected Luke would have been able to recognize the child he raised for years through the Force…)

….cliffhanger.

It would have been explored in the next installment. That’s how cliffhangers work.

In fact, TFA still ended with a cliffhanger. Just…one without any payoff.

 

@JoJoPenelli you’re still not even close to getting what I’m saying, which I heavily suspect is because you’re coming at it from the mindset of “why my theory is correct” and not genuinely trying to understand my point. It has little to nothing to do with being a cliff hanger or what episode 8 would do, and everything to do with how it fits into Episode 7 as it was constructed. It’s awkward to steer a conversation beginning from 2 characters meeting as random strangers directly into “you’re my long lost daughter”, especially when they haven’t so much as established that the character had a family that was lost in the first place. It’s exactly the thing they did with Lando and Jannah and that scene is a mess and should never have made the final cut. Darth Vader already knows Luke is his son before he ever gets to Bespin, for it to be comparable he’d have to say “the Force is strong with this one…holy crap he’s my missing son!!” while flying down the trench of the Death Star. Needless to say I don’t think the reveal would be so iconic if they did it that way. I cannot stress enough it’s not what is theoretically being revealed I’m objecting to, it’s how.

 

Please understand that all I have to work with is what you post. I don’t know you. I can either respond to your words’ plain meaning or literally make up any of the ten billion addendums you might have in your head as you type. In good faith, I can only respond to what you actually say unless you use verbiage that heavily imply something else, which I don’t feel you have.

That being said, I do appreciate you clarifying your words. Text on a screen can often do with some clarifying.

That’s something cliffhangers can get away with that normal character conversations can’t. Cliffhangers are *designed* to be awkward. They’re *designed* to make you go “What??”

We all remember “No, I am your father,” right?

…Rey? That was her character setup….Why did you think she was on Jakku? Why do you think she wanted to go back to Jakku?

And why do you think that most folks assumed after TFA that Luke was her father? Including super-casuals and folks who had literally never seen a SW movie before? Rey having lost her family *was her primary underlying motivation throughout the movie.*

No, it isn’t.

Jannah wasn’t a protagonist. Her family wasn’t her setup. That convo was not a cliffhanger nor was it supposed to be. (I think you’re completely discounting that a cliffhanger has a totally different structure, function, and use in a story than an average line of dialogue.)

No because a cliffhanger is about what we the audience learn, not what characters know.

It sounds like a parent reveal at the end of TFA would have seen utterly out of place because you somehow missed the fact that Rey’s setup was that she had been waiting for her missing family her whole life. But as that was explicitly established in the movie, the fact you missed that was on you.

I think the “what” very much plays into things here. If one is firmly convinced that Rey’s backstory - and the backstory of the ST is utterly irrelevant to Rey then yes such a reveal would seem like a nonsequiter, just as Vader going “omg this pilot is my son!” would have been a nonsequitor in the ANH dogfight.

Why one would be so convinced - especially having just watched TFA and it still being the first 3rd of the story - I have no idea.

 

Because it seemed the most logical direction that the next trilogy would be about Lukes child. thats pretty much it. but its clear they actually thought it was meant more if she wasn't his daughter, or even related to a skywalker. so kids could feel like THEY could be the ordinary person turned hero without having a connection to famous family heritage.

 

It’s so bipolar, they backflipped on her origin so much. Even eventually calling it the Skywalker saga yet arriving there in a not so organic fashion. Why why why did they not just make her related. It would have been so simple yet added massive depth to the trilogies lore, and they only realise this after the backlash.

 

There's only so many backflips you can do before Obi Wan decides to cut off your legs. That's why, in the Director's Cut of TROS, Obi Wan shows up at the very end of the movie and cuts off everyone's legs in an extended montage and then faces the camera stating "Hello there!"

 

Strikes me as there being fundamental disagreements bts as to whether Rey should be related or not.

My guess is that in addition to the “main character needs to be a white dude contingent” and “the only way to attract girls to SW is to make Rey fall in love with the white dude contingent” there was the “who cares about the Skywalkers or existing characters what fans want is the cool pew pews and SW setting” folks or as I call them the “action figure contingent.”

 

I sincerely hope that wasn’t intentional but I’m not holding my breath.

 

Absolutely certain the former was a factor because these are geriatric white male execs and industry vets we’re talking about.

As for the latter, you see “Oh what would girls like? Romance with my self-insert white boy character” as a pretty common male attitude.

And common female attitude, sadly. Very loud “Girls want everything to be about ROMANCE!” female fan contingent. Not true, ofc, but I’m a woman so it’s easier for me to debunk that than a guy.

 

Some males might think that.

 

Well if thats the only way to attract women to see these movies. then it sounds kinda hopeless to even bother.

 

Yeah but I expect women to have a better sense of our own demo.

 

I wholeheartedly believe this was the deciding factor for Rey's parentage, and why they twisted themselves into pretzels trying desperately to not have her be blood-related to Kylo. Nobody gave a **** about "democratizing the Force" or whatever crock TLJ stans convinced themselves the film was setting up.

Their thought process was "Adam Driver makes people wet their pants, how do we finesse this thing to center the story around him while still projecting the appearance that we're 'feminist' and actually give two ***** about a female lead".

I've become far more cynical to Disney's claims of being progressive with their tentpole action franchises after the ST and especially how they recently baited LGBT audiences into thinking the Loki show was gonna give them significant representation, only to do the same bare minimum they've done every single time they announce an LGBT character.

The people in charge of Disney are a bunch of soulless hypocrites that staunchly uphold the status quo while lying about doing it, which to me is far more infuriating than simply excluding progressive demographics like what is expected.

 

But that doesn't appeal to girls apparently.

Personally i don't think this is the case at all. its a very shallow view on Star Wars that clearly doesn't reflect on anything else in Star Wars. they can certainly waste other actors but for some reason Adam Driver and Rian Johnson are 2 of the most important people to Disney. But what it really is, is a decision made that people are desperately looking for a bias motive towards. i don't agree with it, so that means there was no good reason to do it, meaning they did it for the wrong reason. simple as.

But that Adam Driver man. he has gotta be the hottest Star Wars actor yet right? they cast mostly ok looking actors, but that adam driver... the script notes clearly said make teenage girls change their pants on watching Star Wars. lets get those Kylo Ren female sex toys selling.

its a shame Keri Russel wasn't more attractive. maybe Disney would have pressured JJ to get her more face time then just her eyes. get those teenage boys excited!