ST J.J. Abrams (Director Of TFA & TROS) Discussion Thread—Now Finally Discussing: JJ Abrams

I might too, except JJ is known for it, revels in it and walks away before answering any of the questions time and time again.

And where he can leave after the pilot and let someone else figure it out.

Same. Don't get me started on Sherlock, for example...

Yep. And JJ also cemented it with that "people who knew him best" nonsense. JJ and Kasdan were in love with the Han of ANH before they get to the Death Star and never thought he moves forward from that. Then again, I don't think any of the new crowd had any idea of who those characters were, especially by ROTJ (apparently Kasdan either blanked on what he wrote or was so set on rewriting what he wrote...). Honestly, go back and watch TFA and basically, it's Harrison and Carrie not Han and Leia, because they had no idea what to do with Han and Leia except give them a garbage son and murder them both in the name of that character. Then RJ decided that it wasn't Luke, but Obi Wan but angry, and that it was Obi Wan's fault Vader became Vader so it's Luke's fault that Kylo turned. The only OT characters close to who they were are Threepio and Lando, and Lando isn't well served either. Chewie's a pet and Artoo of all droids does nothing.

 

Only if you assume Luke knew about any of that, which is not a guarantee, because not only did TFA have clarified that the first order arose in Luke's absence, but TLJ itself covers this with the notion that Luke was cut off from the force.

Per the information provided in TFA, there was no need for Luke to be pursuing a plan, because there was nothing that says Luke knew about Snoke or the first order. On the contrary, it suggests the opposite.

Like I said above: While a fan who considered the character of Luke may have thought a natural continuation of his character would be Luke actually doing something and having a reason to go to Ach-To, I'm willing to bet that a solid amount of the people who dislike what they did would've been satisfied with the movie simply not having Luke suck.

 

But per TFA he knew Ben turned and killed Luke’s students. Likely also knew that it was Snoke’s influence if Leia is anything to go by. He would know he is abandoning Leia and Han with a dark side son.

Having said that I agree TLJ had plenty of chance not to imply Luke knew about the First Order.
The obvious thing to do would have been giving the First Jedi Temple a purpose for Luke.

 

That wasn't developed in the movie. Per TFA, Snoke is never developed to have been known by anyone before the first order arose, which was said by TFA opening crawl to be in Luke's absence. While he could've been known, it's never developed that it'd be known that Snoke turned Kylo, by Luke.

 

Ever have a friend who knows you well, but completely disagrees with you on something you want to do?

Han could be absolutely right about how he feels about Luke. To his POV, Luke is abandoning them and may not understand the force stuff. Or may not care. He might rightfully think that Luke should stay with them and considers Luke running off to be a mistake.
And Luke may feel guilty that he has to abandon everyone he loves in order to follow the force and do what he's be told is the right choice. He may not even totally tell Han what he plans on doing.

Both could be right. TFA shows us Han's POV. TLJ could have shown us Luke's. (And then we see him dealing w/ the fallout of not being around to pursue that bigger picture)

Sadly, the POV they gave Luke aligned with Han's and basically ruined the character. There was opening to do otherwise.

 

It's more logical to assume he did know about it than he didn't. I mean, Luke is an uber Jedi... he has access to force ghosts, he can see things in the force and commune with Leia across the stars. So in the absence of anything in TFA to explain how/why Luke wouldn't know **** is going down (even when he finds his Jedi Academy burnt down and his padawans dead), then the logical conclusion is that he was privy to it. And remember that it's Johnson who creates the scenario where Luke has closed himself off from the force... and I imagine Johnson created this concept because he too couldn't rationalise a Luke Skywalker who wouldn't know what was going on during events of TFA. So he (Johnson) has to create a concept where Luke wouldn't be cognisant of what's going on, not being able to commune with force ghosts i.e. closing himself off from the force. And by virtue, Johnson has to double down on a Luke that's broken, in order to substantiate why Luke would reject the force.

Exactly my point. He didn't have a plan. He ran away. Han Solo is more diplomatic about it, but that's what he's stating.

I think you're missing my point. Luke sucked Wookie balls because of what Abrams set up in TFA i.e. the hero whom fled the scene, and sits atop an island looking out to sea whilst his friends die and the galaxy burns. There's no real way of reconciling that in a satisfactory way in TLJ. I do think Johnson makes the situation worse, but the root cause of Luke's characterisation (and the gaping hole he leaves in the narrative of TFA) is what happens in TFA.

 

That's not accurate. No ability to commune with Leia across the stars were ever developed for Luke in any of the movies before TLJ. Even sensing Vader comes with Luke sensing that Vader is reaching out specifically to sense him when he's close by. The ability to just know when a dark sider exists isn't an automatic developed ability either. The only thing he may have is the ability to sense the future, which only amounts to much if he has such visions, which was never developed to be something someone can produce out of thin air, but just happens, as far as we saw in the movies.

Irregardless, this is all still something TLJ already covered it's behind on with Luke having been cut off from the force.

I think you're incorrectly conflating having a plan with not walking away. Which is, as far as I'm reading from the transcript, is what Han says he did, not run away. You're producing a narrative, that Han is being diplomatic and that Luke ran away and didn't have a plan, that TFA never establishes.

Luke can be a jerk, to me, in a situation and not really suck, in that wau.

Everything about Luke that outright sucks, to me, is introduced in TLJ, not TFA. TLJ is the movie that had Luke seek to murder his nephew in his sleep for apparently things he hadn't even done yet, disregard his sister asking for help, his friend's death, the galaxy being taken over, blame the jedi for his own mistakes, not tell the truth about what happened with Kylo apparently to hide his mistakes, and seemingly try to sabotage his sister's mission by teaching Rey why the jedi should end. All of this was done in TLJ, not TFA.

TFA never established anything really about Luke's perspective about the events of TLJ for there to be any info about Luke not caring about anything or even knowing about it. TLJ did that. That you have these angles, to me, is you producing a narrative the movie never establishes and even TFA suggests isn't the case. I think the root cause of TLJ's issues is in it's own choices. JJ's bad writing doesn't mean RJ's bad writing isn't the same level. Just like it doesn't mean that mean ol George Lucas isn't responsible for JJ's choices in writing. Both TFA and TLJ can be poorly done, individually, for it's own reasons.

I disagree. Luke being disconnected from the force, all by itself, to me, reconciles the situation solidly, to me, as it explains that Luke wasn't allowing anything to happen, because he didn't know anything about it. I think to treat Luke like he should know, in that situation, isn't logical.

 

Was the FO a big threat when Luke left? The crawl says that the FO arose in Luke's absence.
So when he left either there was no FO or if there was, it was not a major threat.
So Luke could think that the NR could keep order while he goes and looks for what he needs.
There is a threat yes, Snoke and turned Ben. But if they don't have a massive army, they can't attack the NR.
Things grew worse while Luke was away but the really bad thing, SKB, that was maybe a day or two before Rey found him. Did Luke know about SKB ahead of time? Why would he?
OBi-Wan did not know about the DS ahead of time.

Speaking of Obi-Wan, he stayed on Tatooine while the Empire was killing Jedi, crushing all opposition and generally being evil. And he stayed put, Same with Yoda.

What were Luke doing before? Training Jedi. Then his academy was destroyed, his students killed or turned. He felt responsible and left. Going where?
To find the first Jedi Temple.

That he goes looking for a Jedi temple would indicate that he is looking for something that is related to Jedi would it not? Why else would he go look for a Jedi temple?
This in turn implies that he has not totally given up on the Jedi.

Also, given what Han says,

The first bit, that Luke's academy was destroyed and he left, that seems fairly certain.
Then he talks about rumors and stories and it seems that the last part indicate that he was not one among those people. So did Luke and Han talk after what happened? We don't know.
It does seem that Luke did not tell Han were he was going. But some people did know something.

Not sure about that, it often helps but take ESB and "No. There is another."
That was not Leia at the time. At first it was about a sister, Neelith, who was training elsewhere. Then it just became about some other. So that was set up with not clear end in mind.

Or take AotC and the clone army mystery. First it was Sido-Dyas, a fake Jedi, then Sifo-Dyas, a real but dead Jedi. Again set up with no clear end in mind.

Or take DS9, season 3. In the ep, the Defiant, we hear about the Cardassian Obsidian Order doing something in the Orias system. Then in a later two-parter, we get told what, they were building ships together with the Romulans. But that was not the plan when ep Defiant was made. That was something they came up with then they redid the end of the ep, "Improbable cause" and decided to make it into a two-parter. So they used stuff that had been established but in ways that were not intended.

In TNG, the Bluegills was set up for something that never came about.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

You're wrong. That was first established in The Empire Strikes Back... but maybe you can't remember??? Luke also has the ability to feel Han and Leia's pain... as per TESB too.

THAT'S THE POINT... i.e. Johnson had to create a situation where Luke cuts himself off from the force... because Abrams created a situation where Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master and hero of the rebellion, ran off and didn't want to come out and take on those that had destroyed the Republic/Jedi.

I think that's exactly what you're doing. Ironic.

Of course Han is being diplomatic... he's not only talking about Luke, but his son... and the audience know it's his son. Re. narrative. There's no narrative other than what the film tries to construct i.e. "Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything". That's rather circumscribe and specific. Also, this is a work of fiction and not reality. Luke 'having a plan' doesn't exist without it being written... and Abrams never gave him a 'plan'.

You can think that, but you'd be wrong. It's the first act that should have adequately established the events and situations. Luke not being in the first act is rather fundamental to the entire sequel trilogy. But the fatal mistake is that Abrams and Kasdan link Luke directly to Kylo Ren and the demise of the Republic. This is all in TFA and not TLJ. I imagine that you just wanted TLJ to 'make it right'... which is what I wanted too, but I knew it couldn't because the root cause was TFA.

So from just the events of TFA... and without having to invent your own reasons, why did Luke not go after Ben/Kylo Ren in TFA? Why did Luke 'walk away' from everything? His sister, Han, the Republic? Why did Luke feel 'responsible'?

You'll need to explain further... what is this 'narrative' of what you speak?

That's empirically and demonstrably not the case. It's TFA that creates the scenario of Ben Solo, Luke's former student, being Kylo Ren. It's TFA that has Ben Solo sack the Jedi Academy and kill the students. It's TFA that doesn't have Luke in the story, but has him in a position where he felt 'responsible' for what had happened, and rather than fight or make it right, he decided to walk away'. It's TFA that chooses to obliterate the Republic, kill Han Solo... all in Luke's absence. Even the opening crawl eludes to Luke's absence facilitating the rise of Snoke and the First Order. It's TFA that puts Luke looking dejected on an island in the middle of nowhere. That's all in TFA and not TLJ.

So now you're agreeing that Johnson had to put a fix in place? When you first watched TFA, with no clue as to what happens next, your takeaway was that Luke was not cognisant of anything going on in the galaxy? Really? What was that opinion based on... given that the previous 6 films had showed quite clearly that Jedi (especially powerful ones) could feel things in the force etc. etc.???[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

Luke in TFA is no different from Obi-Wan in ANH, except the main character is not lucky enough to be on the same planet as he and the whole movie is spent trying to get him that distress call. Obi-Wan is in exile in Tatooine, had his apprentice turn against him and the Jedi, and had to witness the rise of the Empire.

The story’s not exactly the same, and we as fans feel the exile more because we know his relationship to those that were left behind. The nature of the distress call is also different, because the Resistance simply didn’t know where he was. But my point is that there’s nothing in the setup that inevitably leads to questionable character choices. Because it was done for Obi-Wan too and he was even given a good reason for being in exile eventually, though not originally.

I’m fairy confident Abrams did want viewers to wonder why Luke was in exile rather than assume he had lost interest in Galactic affairs out of shame.

 

Well yeah and people did wonder and people got an answer.

 

No. That's false. Unless we have different definitions of "across the stars" (because when I think of that I think of multiple planets away, not still within the vicinity of the very same planet) or are talking about an entirely different situation (at the end when he's stranded and asks for help), that never happened. Leia, by all accounts, was still within the vicinity of the planet when Luke communed with her, similar to the situation with Vader. Which I should point out was something Luke was actively trying to do, not something that just happened.

He doesn't feel her pain... huh? That's a future vision he has. Again, unless we're discussing something different.

This is the point. That the movie had an explanation already. But still made him suck. We had no information about Luke's overall desires or goals in TFA. The ending was even changed to fit the force disconnection, from what I heard, and RJ still had him suck, when he didn't have to. RJ created this problem for himself, after he'd already developed an explanation.

There is no developed concept that Luke in TFA didn't want to do anything. That's a narrative you're producing.

I don't think I ever stated he had a plan. You're the one who stated he didn't have a plan, when there was no real development for or against that in TFA. I'm fine with a story where he didn't. Like I said above: While a fan who considered the character of Luke may have thought a natural continuation of his character would be Luke actually doing something and having a reason to go to Ach-To, I'm willing to bet that a solid amount of the people who dislike what they did would've been satisfied (or fine) with the movie simply not having Luke suck.

And Luke, as a character, having no plan doesn't exist without it being written. By the very nature of a work of fiction, he doesn't have anything, he's not an uncaring person who doesn't care about anyone but himself, not is he seeking a heroic goal, because TFA never establishes anything.

Objectively, that is not accurate. TLJ is the movie that introduces all these things. You may think they have their root in TFA writing choices, but that's perception. The objective structure here is that everything I pointed out is actually established in TLJ. You're also straying from the in story structure and pursuing outside narrative writing structures in how it's written. I don't think I ever really debated whether TFA was well written or not.

It doesn't directly link Luke to the demise of the republic.

I never had any real perceptions on why Luke walked away from everything after TFA. I thought TFA was poorly done and had little interest in really considering it much. I actually kinda figured the next movie would never really care to address it.

However, using just what I think is basic viewing concepts: Luke felt responsible because he was Kylo's teacher and felt he failed him. He left because he may have felt like Leia wanted nothing to do with him.

I have no real issue with a story where Luke has guilt, and/or is damaged. Almost all of the ST redo pitches I've posted here have some variation of that story. But that doesn't change that I think the movie has Luke suck and be a whiny little manbaby. There's a difference between these things to me.

I already said: You're presumption on Luke's overall intentions and goals, per only the info provided in TFA.

I don't think Kylo or his role the jedi academy destruction, as a concept, is a real issue for TLJ, for me.

And Luke not being the story, to me, only really harms the narrative of TFA, not creates the real problems, to me, with his character in TLJ. There are plenty of issues with Luke's actions in TFA, if you want to debate them, but TLJ is the movie that establishes his perception, his attitude, his structure, not TFA. TFA, if anything, provides a potential idea (whether it intends) of a broken Luke who needs to figure out something, and that's not a real issue for TLJ, for me. I have no real issue with a broken Luke story. But a lot of what TLJ entails with that story, to me, is the real writing issues. Luke making selfish choices at times? I can go with, in idea. Luke making mistakes? I can go with, in idea. Luke, when asked in a message sent by his sister, after his friend has died, to come and help, for no other reason than he's a selfish petty self pitying manchild, not only refuses but seeks to sabotage Leia's goals by teaching Rey that the jedi need to end, all after breaking Leia and Han's trust in seeking to murder his nephew, their son, in cold blood apparently for thought crimes, all while acting like a grumpy old man that this is a major inconvenience for? I think that's Luke sucking. And that's all developed in TLJ, not TFA. To me, TLJ takes TFA's dumb premise of Luke walking away from everything and goes, "Yeah, but what if Luke didn't care about anyone but himself and that's why all this is happening?" To me, that's TLJ's issue with Luke.

Even obliterating the republic and/or killing Han aren't the real issues with TLJ (Han, particularly, I've accepted by that point he'd died and wouldn't personally physically interact with the characters again, which I think is poorly done, but TFA's problem, not TLJ's), to me, and is only real issues for TFA, for me.

No. There was no fix introduced in TLJ, just an explanation for something TFA already had, at RJ's request as far as I think I've read. If anything the fix was introduced by TFA, in intention. I'm willing to admit RJ's pitch facilitated what you may call a fix. I have no real qualms about saying that he's presented some ideas that I think can be interesting, if written well. But I think he doesn't write them well. Broken Luke, to me, is among them. This is new information for the audience, but it's not out of nowhere information and doesn't contradict anything in TFA or effect the structure of it.

Though even ANH hinted at that with the idea of the jedi being hunted down and Obi-Wan having a different name and such.

I think, as is a lot of things in TLJ, that answer is: Not much of legit substance, I think, basically.

Rey's parents? Nobody.

Snoke? No one that really matters now.

Luke's goals? Basically nothing.

Kylo's goals? Keep doing what they were doing before.

The resistance's goals? Just hang around at a steady pace until they can hide.

 

I was of course speaking figuratively (‘Across the Stars’ being a Williams theme). However, TESB establishes quite clearly that Luke and Leia can commune across distance by power of the force. Or are you suggesting that doesn’t happen?

Where in any of the films does it even try to suggest that this ability is confined to it being in the immediate vicinity???

I didn’t mean he was feeling their pain in ‘real time’, but that he could feel their pain via him seeing the future. Luke specifically states “they were in pain”. I mean Ben Kenobi senses the destruction of Alderaan. Yoda senses Order 66 etc. I see no reason why Luke wouldn’t be able to know what happening with Han, Leia etc. during events in TFA. I assume Johnson knew that this would create a plot gap/inconsistency, so he created a plot device to circumnavigate it and keep Luke in the dark.

You’re missing the point. Because of Abrams, Johnson had to create a plot device (being disconnected from the force) that would allow Luke Skywalker not to be cognisant of what was happening to Leia and Han etc. However, in order for Luke to disconnect himself from the force, Johnson also had to create a reason for why Luke would do that… and that reason was created by Abrams I.e. because Luke felt “responsible for what happened” to Ben and the Jedi Academy.

Are you trying to say that just because Luke isn’t shown that he didn’t want to do anything, doesn’t mean he actually didn’t want to do anything? Is that what you’re positing?

There was no ‘plan’ shared with the audience watching TFA. Ergo there was no ‘plan’ beyond what the dialogue suggests i.e. Luke felt responsible and walked away from everything. That’s it… and that’s what Johnson had to work with.

The idea of Luke “not sucking” is predicated on the notion that TLJ would give a satisfying explanation as to why Luke would feel responsible and walk away from everything to let the galaxy turn to ****. Johnson didn’t give a satisfying explanation to that, but it was Abrams/TFA that created the requirement for a satisfying explanation in the first place. Otherwise why would Luke feel responsible and walk away from everything to let the galaxy turn to ****?

TFA establishes that Ben Solo, on Luke’s watch, turned to the Darkside and destroyed the Jedi Academy/Jedi. And because Luke felt so responsible for what happened, he walked away from everything… which facilitated the rise of the First Order with Ben Solo/Kylo Ren as the proxy Emperors new apprentice. That’s what TFA establishes about Luke Skywalker. TLJ doesn’t contradict any of that. Indeed, it fleshes out (albeit in an unsatisfying way) as to why Luke felt so responsible that he walked away.

It’s not ‘perception’, it’s demonstrable fact… which is why I asked about why Luke is standing looking out to sea whilst the galaxy is on fire, why he felt responsible for Ben, why he chooses not to be fighting with Leia and the resistance etc. etc. Those are questions posed by TFA not TLJ.

As per above. You’re letting your subjective opinion cloud the argument, which is why the internal narrative drivers are being conflated with the external techniques (IMO).

It kind of does, directly, in the opening crawl and then by linking Luke directly to Kylo Ren… and Luke’s feeling responsible for what happened. I think if TFA hasn’t done that, we may not be having this conversation.

This isn’t GCSE Maths though… where failure results in a bad grade. Luke’s ‘failure’, in this context, cumulates in the unleashing of Kylo Ren the destruction of the Jedi Academy, the New Republic and the death of Han Solo etc. So the guilt Luke feels must be pretty substantial yes? So substantial that he may withdraw and give up the calling he once had?

Surely you must be able to concede that if Luke Skywalker is portrayed as being ‘damaged’ or racked with ‘guilt’ to the extent that he runs away from everything; that there is a risk that he may not be perceived as the hero we’re familiar with… and that we may not like who he has become? That has to be a possibility right?

I’d argue that TLJ ‘develops’ the idea that TFA ‘establishes’ i.e. that Luke felt guilty and walked away from everything… which in turn left the galaxy in ****. Johnson (as badly as he does it) just contextualises it.

This isn’t really about whether TLJ has writing issues… as I believe we both think it does. Rather, IMO, it’s about significant and fundamental structural issues in TFA that hamper and hinder the proceeding films in the trilogy. Luke’s setup in TFA being a major fault line…

 

I'm suggesting that an existence of one type of thing doesn't prove the ability to do what I think you suggest. Especially considering the idea that if this could happen, like you suggest, Vader could commune with Luke from a vast distance and just seek him out, which is never developed in the movies, and Vader is only shown to sense and commune with Luke when he's close by. What we see is Luke, Leia and Vader communing and sensing when the one of them is close by. By the same measure, Vader doesn't just sense Obi-Wan when they're over tatooine, and only senses him when he's on the death star. Sensing and communing doesn't just happen and it isn't developed to be something that someone can just do across vast distances. I'd suggest context clues in the overall series suggest that's not how it works.

If the individual writer decides to write it that way, yes, but not all by itself, depending, to me. I think it's on the individual writer.

It is for me. How it's written defines it, to me. An idea is something anyone can have, what's done with that idea defines whether or not a story or character works, to me.

Those were large scale events. Hundreds, if not thousands, of jedi, dying in mass at the same time and billions of people dying. Even Obi-Wan calls it a disturbance in the force. The jedi aren't developed to collectively feel when just 1 death, even someone they know, happens across the galaxy, even one of their own, in any of the movies.

Even seeing the future isn't something a jedi is ever developed to be able to control. Even Yoda in ROTS seems unsure of it, to me.

It's not fact and is perception. Because those aren't questions posed by TFA. If anything, I'd suggest they may be questions you posed for TFA, but they're not any type of concern for the story or characters of TFA. Feeling responsible for your student is a normal human emotion. No question of Luke even knowing the galaxy is any real trouble is established. No question of, at all, that Luke would choose not to fight with Leia. These are your assumptions that Luke feeling responsible needs a particular explanation, that Luke is unwilling to fight with Leia, that Luke even knows he's needed, not the movie's.

Again, for a couple of these, I'm pointing to the opening crawl of TFA suggesting it happened after Luke left.

None of this establishes that Luke is willing to let everyone who cares about him and he's supposed to care about, die. None of it.

 

DP.

 

The films establish that those with the force can sense each other, and can commune, via some form of 'force user ESP'. We don't know the limits of that ability... it's never established in the films. However, given that (using your example) Vader can't just automatically locate Luke at the start of TESB, it's a fair assumption to believe that there are parameters. Maybe it's proximity, maybe it's that the force users in question need an emotional/physical bond to be first established (something Luke and Vader didn't have at the start of TESB right)? We see in AOTC that Anakin is having 'visions' of his mother... and these visions aren't premonitions or seeing into the future per se, but instead, Anakin is sensing the pain of his mother in 'real time'... and through this he knows she is in trouble and needs help (which she is). We see this too when Yoda senses Anakin's pain and anguish during his attack on the Tusken camp. So there's more than enough information in the existing films to suggest that Luke should either be able to commune directly with Leia or be able to 'sense' what's going on.

As per above. The Lucas films clearly establish that the Jedi/force users can sense what's happening to others across the galaxy. It doesn't have to be 'billions of people dying'. Even the ST pushes the notion that this can be on an individual basis...

Where does 'control' come into it? Whom said anything about the Jedi controlling the future?

Really? How Han and Leia's son turns to the darkside, and why Luke feels so guilty about it he runs away and leaves everybody behind aren't questions raised in TFA? I'm so glad that you felt so unmoved about these things in TFA. As I said, you're subjectivity is clouding your rationalisation of the films. You should try the same approach with TLJ.

Really? So know you're making a case for TFA characterising Luke as stupid? Or is it that you don't think Luke was cognisant of what happened to the galaxy the last time a Jedi student turned to the darkside of the force and purged the Jedi order? You believe that Luke wouldn't think that 'any real trouble'???

You don't believe Luke Skywalker, the main protagonist of the OT, doesn't need a 'particular explanation' for his motivation to be absent whilst his friends die and the galaxy burns in TFA? You seem to have incredibly low expectations for how character's are established and motivated. Strange then that you're so unwilling to buy into his portrayal in TLJ when you so easily accept the MIA schtick of TFA?

That's not the pertinent point. The pertinent point is that Luke's absence allowed the First Order to rise. Ben Solo, the student he supposedly trained and ran away from, became a pivotal player in the First Order's ascension.

In the absence of 'motivation' for his actions... yes it does. That's the point. And that's what good writers try and do i.e. provide convincing motivation for character behaviour. The problem is that you don't like the answer that Johnson gave you based on the questions that Abrams posed.

 

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I think you are reaching with how powerful this ability is, that Force users can speak to each other across half the galaxy. And if this power does exist then it makes a mess of several films.
In TPM, Qui-Gon could have "talked" to Yoda as soon as the TF launched their invasion. That did not happen. In AotC, when Obi-Wan's ship is damaged and his communicator is broken. If this ability existed then he could just "talk" to Yoda and let him know what is going on. Again, that did not happen.
In RotS, Mace could have "talked" to Yoda and let him know that Palpatine is a Sith. Still did not happen.
In ESB, Palpatine contacted Vader using tech, not Force telepathy.

Instead, proximity is often showed to be a factor. In ANH, Vader does not sense Obi-Wan when he is over Tatooine but does sense him when they are both on the DS. Luke and Vader sense each other in RotJ when Luke is nearby and Palpatine does not sense Luke interestingly enough.
So Luke "speaking" to Leia worked because they were fairly close by. It is a stretch to argue that he could have talked to her across the galaxy.

The instances where this has happened are, Shmi, who was being tortured, Han and Leia, who were being tortured, Anakin, who was in massive pain and murdering people, Yoda sensing Order 66 happening and Obi-Wan sensing Alderaan.
And notice that Obi-Wan sensed something but not what. He did not know what happened, just something terrible. And he did not sense it ahead of time. Neither did Yoda with regards to Order 66.

So what could we reasonably assume that Luke would sense? The destruction of the NR central system, he would sense that but it is unclear if he would know exactly what happened.
Where Leia or Han ever tortured in TFA or before? Not really established. They were not happy but could Force users sense people being unhappy?
And how much time passes between the destruction of the NR capitol and SKB being destroyed? A day or two. So not that much time for Luke to do much and does he know where SKB is or where the Resistance base is located?

Also, had the FO directly attacked the NR before using SKB? The film does not imply that.
The Resistance is fighting the FO and is supported by the NR but any direct military action between the FO and NR is not clearly established. The FO is a bad thing and is hurting people but it seems that their actions are happening outside the NR.

I think the argument was about controlling the ability to SEE the future, not controlling the future itself.

Yoda could not see what would happen to Han and Leia in ESB.

Why Luke would feel guilty, terrible and responsible does not have to be stated and would fit Luke as he was established in the OT. He was training new Jedi, including his nephew but said nephew turned evil and destroyed all that Luke worked for. I see no problem with Luke taking the blame upon himself, feeling awful for Han and Leia and thinking that if he did something better then this would not have happened.
Obi-Wan blamed himself for Anakin and said he failed him. Again I do not see this as out of character for Obi-Wan.
If Luke instead had reacted to Ben turning evil by just going, "Oh my nephew turned evil when I was training him but that is totally not my fault. I am not responsible in any way so don't blame me."
That I would think would be very out of character for Luke.

Why Luke left, that is not made clear yes. But as I've said earlier, Luke was training new Jedi, that did not work out well and he left, looking for the first JEDI temple. Sure sounds like Luke is looking for something to do with Jedi. Why else would he look for a Jedi temple?

So Vader killed all the PT Jedi all on his own did he? He did not, he and Palpatine and the Clone ARMY, did the purging.
If, as far as Luke knows, Kylo and Snoke has no army or military, they could not really attack the NR and destroy it. If Kylo went alone to attack the NR capitol, he would not be able to kill all of them, he would instead die.

Luke is aware that there is a threat yes, Snoke most likely and Kylo. But if there is no FO or Luke is not aware of it, then the danger is not an urgent threat to the NR but Luke needs to do something.
And if Luke thinks what he needs is knowledge and that knowledge could only be found at the first Jedi Temple, then I could see him leaving to go there. And also taking care to cover his tracks so that Snoke and Kylo does not comes after him.

How much explanation did Obi-Wan give in ANH for him sitting on the sidelines while the Empire killed Jedi and spread evil across the galaxy?

If Luke in TLJ has said something like, "When I left, I knew nothing of the FO and thought that the NR could keep the peace. What worried me was that I knew nothing about Snoke, I never sensed him or saw him coming. I needed information and the only place I knew where such might exist was here, the first Jedi temple. So I went looking and eventually found it and I have learned a lot. But what I felt two days ago changed everything, the time for study is over and I must step back into action."
There, gives a reason for why he left and that he now must come back.
Had TLJ done that or something like it, then I think that far fewer would have issues with it.

Here you assuming a correlation where none need exist.
The crawl says;

"IN his absence" is not the same as "DUE to his absence."

All we know for sure is that Luke went away and then the FO rose. If one caused or affected the other is not established.
We are not told that the FO came about just because Luke was not there nor are we told that IF Luke had just stuck around then the FO would simply vanish.

The Sith was around despite the Jedi being there.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I think you're conflating the internal logic of it with how writers use creative license to tell entertaining stories. It's why, for example, the Jedi are written to use lightsabers when their very advanced telekinesis powers would make close quarter combat largely redundant. Point being, the films establish that force users can feel things in the force (across the galaxy), they can sense others in the force (across the galaxy) and they can commune via the force. This is established in the OT/PT, and further reenforced in the ST... Point being, there is no reason why Luke Skywalker would not be cognisant of what was going on in the galaxy (especially if it involved the darkside) unless he had either prevented himself from being cognisant of it (which is a concept created by Johnson for TLJ) or he was cognisant, but chose not to intervene. Those are the options. Johnson chose both.

That's a bit of a red herring. As per above, "This one a long time have I watched." (Yoda TESB). And I don't like using deleted scenes per se... but we know that Vader was to have reached out to Luke on Tatooine at the start of ROTJ. Besides, this isn't about measuring a force users ability to Skype over distance, but rather whether Luke had the ability to sense what was going on in the galaxy whilst on Ahch-To... and the answer is an emphatic 'yes'.

You're conflating internal logic with plot. No one was talking about Luke being able to sense something before it occurred (although it's established there are such things as premonitions etc.) When Yoda sensed Order 66 he acted upon it. What came next, for Yoda, was an integral part of the plot. He wasn't removed from the story and shown to be passively looking out to sea. TFA never provides any insight into what Luke did or what he was doing. He was just sat on a rock looking sad.

The growing darkside? The emergence of the First Order that look and sound just like the Empire? The pain and anguish of his twin sister and his best friend? Yes nothing to sense and act on there. Or maybe Leia and Han just didn't care enough about their son becoming Kylo Ren and joining the First Order? Is is that you believe Leia and Han don't know that Ben is Kylo Ren and think he isn't part of the First Order?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that force users (in this case the Jedi) can only sense others when they are being tortured?

If your point is that there is nothing going on for Luke to be concerned about... I'd argue that the first red flag of something more sinister going on should have been Ben Solo turning to the darkside and the New Jedi Academy being destroyed, and the students killed. How many times has that happened in galactic history? The First Order are a proxy for the Empire and are being run by force using darksiders. Luke should be cognisant of that.

It was about neither... not from me anyhow.

Again, that's a red herring... strawman, call it what you will. This isn't about whether Luke would feel guilty or sad about Ben turning to the darkside; it's about being so guilty that Luke left everyone and everything behind. That he didn't try and rectify what he felt guilty about. That he fled. That's NOT what Obi-Wan did.

Maybe it's where the Jedi of yore went to die? Who knows? But it doesn't sound like anything more than what it was i.e. nothing illuminating. If it had, then maybe it would have allowed for something better? Maybe Luke could have come to save the day on SKB? Maybe he could have had one last scene with Han Solo? Maybe that scene could of ended with Luke saying "I've been to the first Jedi Temple and I know who Snoke is"... but none of that is sown into TFA. Instead we get a sad and dejected looking figure at the end of TFA, which plays into the 'guilty', 'ran away' depiction that's carried forward, and not the 'Jedi Knight on a secret mission' that could have been.

What has that got to do with anything? Where did I say Vader killed every single Jedi on his own? Please be more specific and help reduce the verbiage by not creating strawmen.

Why would Kylo go and attack the NR alone? Why would Luke assume there was no plan given that his Jedi Academy has just been taken out? That suggests a plan does it not? As of TFA, are we to assume that Luke has no understanding of historical galactic events involving the Jedi and his family? Has Yoda, Obi-Wan or Anakin never filled him in on what happened with Palaptine and how Palaptine was able to usurp the democratic institutions by first getting rid of the Jedi? Did Luke not even wonder whether the same was happening? Is Luke really stupid in your interpretation of events?

As per above. Why would Luke assume Snoke had no plan if they'd just succesfully taken out the Jedi line of defence?

But as I've already stated. That isn't established in a credible way in TFA. Why would Luke need to go to the first Jedi temple when the threat to the galaxy is pretty much exactly the same as the threat to the galaxy that the Empire/Palpatine was? Where's Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin in all of this? What do they have to say about the new paradigm that requires seeking out the original Jedi temple? This all should have been what TFA set out to establish i.e. what the new threat was and what Luke and the others must do. The problem is that TFA never makes Luke (and what he must do) a part of the narrative. So you have a jigsaw piece (Luke) without a picture on it and without an existing jigsaw to fit it into.

He didn't have to. From a writing perspective, Ben Kenobi was a new character (in the very first SW film) that was using historical galactic events to establish what was happening in the 'present' ('present' to the story). That is NOT Luke Skywalker in Episode VII. Luke is an existing character, indeed the main character of the OT... with a story the audience have already been following, but who has major events applied to him retrospectively (in TFA), and which do not align to the characters expected trajectory. That is not Ben Kenobi's function in ANH. I shouldn't be having to explain why that is not the same.

He could have said that yes... but it isn't on the writer of TLJ to fix issues with TFA. The 'fix' would have been to have Luke say those things in TFA and establish the sequence of events then, as part of the first film/opening chapter. The 2nd film, in this case TLJ, could then have Luke acting on what he had learnt/found at the Jedi Temple. That's usually the conventional way to construct a 3 act story like that i.e. first film sets up events and has Luke take on a mission/quest to find the answer at the end. Second film is Luke on the mission finding the answer. 3rd film is him using the new knowledge/power to resolve the conflict. All this still could have featured Rey, Kylo, BB8 etc. but this requires Luke being much more prominent in the story/narrative than what Abrams and Kasdan wanted.

I think that's an incorrect misinterpretation on your behalf. "DUE" would explicitly mean solely because. "IN" implies linkage and causality e.g. in the absence of stricter sanctions set out in the Treaty of Versailles, Germany was allowed to rebuild its military power base after WWI, versus due to the absence of stricter sanctions set out in the Treaty of Versailles, Germany was allowed to rebuild its military power base after WWI. No one is claiming that the First Order exist solely because of Luke Skywalker. However, it's the opening crawl that directly kinks Luke's absence to the First Order being able to 'rise'. The clear inference being that Luke would have been able to prevent their rise.

As per above, the opening crawl establishes that by linking them. Otherwise it could/should have been "The First Order has risen from the ashes of the Empire. In an attempt to thwart the new and dangerous enemy, Luke Skywalker has embarked on a mission to find the first Great Jedi Temple". It's really not difficult.

 

Except we are not talking about writers using creative license, we are talking about you making a bunch of assumptions of what Luke would be aware of.
Your argument is that the PT/OT showed Force users being able to do A, B and C and so you argue that they should also be able to do D, E and F.
I am using internal logic to show why I think you are reaching in your argument.

Ex, speaking across the galaxy,.
1. That ability is never shown. When Force users are able to speak in the minds of others, they are close to each other.
2. There are examples where Force users want to speak to others far away, like Obi-Wan in AotC.
His communicator was damaged and so he could not report to Mace and Yoda. And he did NOT use this ability, instead he contacted Anakin through regular means and had him relay his message.

So this ability is not established and in instances where it would have been useful, it is not used. So logically, it does not exist.

No, you are again reaching.
The established instances where Force users have sensed stuff happening are Luke sensing Han and Leia being tortured. Yoda sensing Anakin in pain in AotC. And notice that Mace did not sense that and neither did Obi-Wan. Thus establishing that what one Jedi senses, might not be sensed by others.
Obi-Wan sensed Alderaans destruction but not what it was, where or exactly what happened.
Did the PT Jedi sense the invasion of Naboo in TPM? Not that I am aware of.
They did not foresee the creation of the clone army and they commented that their ability had been weakened. Due to the Dark Side it seemed like. So the Jedi's ability to sense stuff can be made weaker.

So that Luke would be aware of everything that is going on in the galaxy, that is not established.
What he would sense is the destruction of the Republic capitol, that is pretty clear. The rest, not so much

Yoda also sensed Anakin being in pain in AotC, did he do anything about that? No.
When Anakin told Obi-wan about his recurring nightmares about his mother, Obi-Wan just said, "Dreams pass in time." So essentially, do nothing.
Obi-Wan sensed Alderaan's destruction, did he take any specific action about that, no.

How much did the PT Jedi sense about the growing dark side? In TPM they say nothing about it. And the Sith had been around for a long time and the Jedi had no clue. In AotC they seem aware that the Dark Side is making it hard for them to see, that they are blind.
Anakin was in pain and anguish in AotC. First because of the worsening bad dreams, did Obi-Wan sense that? Not really. Then it got really bad with the Sand People, that Yoda sensed but Mace did not. Nor it seems did Obi-Wan. And Obi-Wan was supposed to be really close to Anakin.

What are we shown in the films?
In ANH, Vader does not sense Obi-Wan over Tatooine but he does sense him when both are on the DS. Again the proximity thing.
Obi-Wan senses Alderaan but not what it was.
In ESB, Vader and Palpatine are able to sense Luke's growing power but they can not locate him.
Vader captures Han and Leia and starts to torture them, his logic is that Luke would sense that and come running. So inflicting lots of pain, that can trigger something in Force users.
In RotJ, Vader and Luke sense each other when they are close outside of Endor. So proximity yet again.
And here Palpatine does not sense Luke. Later on Leia is shot and is in pain, did Luke sense that? Not as far as the film shows.
In AotC, Shmi has been tortured over an extended period of time and Anakin has been getting bad dream/visions. Later Anakin goes kill crazy and this Yoda does sense, not exactly what though. And neither Mace nor Obi-Wan senses it.

If the FO did not exist when Luke left or he was totally unaware of them, how could he be cognizant of them or them being run by dark siders?
Luke is concerned, hence why he leaves to find the first Jedi Temple.
Again, he had a task to train new jedi, that failed and now he has a turned Ben Solo and some unknown Dark sider, Snoke. That he could think that he needs knowledge, something old regarding the Jedi and so he goes looking for the first jedi temple.

dagenspear wrote this;

To which you said;

dagenspear never said anything about controlling the future, so I have no idea where you got that idea.
The argument was instead that SEEING the future was an ability that the Jedi could not control.

TFA does not establish that he fled, it says that he went looking for something. TLJ is the one that says that Luke fled, that he does not want to help, that he does not care, that the galaxy can burn.
Also, take this from TFA;

Leia says that Snoke seduced Ben to the dark side but that they can save him. Han responds by saying that Luke could not do it. This could mean that Luke DID try to get Ben back from the dark side but failed.
If so, then is it not possible that Luke goes looking for information? That he does not know everything? That there is some piece missing?

If you can think of nothing better than that, that is on you. I think the idea has potential.
For one thing, getting some more history about the Jedi. They have been around a long time but when were they formed, how, why? We saw the new Temple in the PT, why did they leave this? Why does hardly anyone know where it is?
For another, why is Luke going to an old temple, what could be there that is relevant to what is going on now? If Snoke is really ancient and the Jedi of old fought him but then he was gone for many millennia, then knowledge about him could be there.
You could also tie this into the concept of balance, the PT talked about that and it was mentioned at the start of TFA. The Jedi were formed because the Force was unbalanced back then, hence the temple.

If Luke pops back to save the day at the end of TFA, that does two problematic things. a) it makes the new characters look weak because they need an old hero to save them. And b) it renders all the stuff about the map and all that pointless. Luke just shows up.
Also, JJ wanted to show Luke floating a bunch of rocks, RJ asked him to change that.

You said this;

Saying that a Jedi student turned to the dark side and then purged the Jedi order. Don't blame me if you are not being clear.

The relevance is the level of threat.
If Snoke and Kylo can not destroy the NR on their own and as far as Luke knows, they have no military.
Then he does have time. He can look for information and the NR will not be instantly destroyed because he is gone. In short, the NR can protect itself for now.

That Luke left to find something does indicate that he is aware that there is a problem and what he needs is knowledge.
That he thinks he can leave because he knows nothing of the FO so to him, there is no direct military threat to the NR. So they can keep order for now. Palpatine was the head of the senate, is Snoke the head of the senate? That is not established.
Also, Palpatine usurped the democratic institutions and THEN he got rid of the Jedi. He caused a fake conflict in order to get voted into a position of power. He created a fake war to get even more power and an army that obeyed orders without question. He used said war to weaken the Jedi and reduce their numbers. Then he got the Jedi to act against him so he could declare them traitors and wipe them out.
Is anything like this going on before TFA?
Nope, Snoke and the FO are a wholly external threat. He isn't trying to weaken the NR and take over from within. He attacks from without using SKB.

Where did I say that Luke thought Snoke had no plan?
Strawman on your part.

Also, did Luke's Jedi actively defend the NR?
Luke was training a new generation of Jedi but had any of them graduated?
Snoke took them out to prevent new Jedi to rise. He says as much and Luke could realize this.
Luke could also realize that if Snoke kills him, then there will be no one to train any new Jedi.
So Luke could be aware that he is marked man, that Snoke or his agents would try and come after him.

My argument is that if the FO did not exist when Luke left or they were tiny and Luke was not aware of them. Then Luke could think that the NR could protect itself for a while as he goes and looks for what he needs. So at the time, there was not a direct military threat to the NR.

As I've said, the FIRST Jedi temple. Yes Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin would be around to tell Luke stuff. And yet he goes to this temple? Logically the reason is that the information he needs is OLD. Far older than Yoda even. So if Snoke is not a new type of Dark Sider but a very old one, older by far than the Sith.
So old that even Yoda knows nothing about him. All he can tell Luke that there might be something at the first Jedi temple.
The threat the FO is has differences to the GE and Palpatine.
Palpatine took over from within and gradually converted the republic to an empire.
The FO is external.

Your complaint is that Luke should have protected the galaxy and instead he left and did nothing while evil took over. Obi-Wan was part of a group that protected the galaxy but he left and did nothing while evil took over the galaxy. That is quite similar.

Also, if we factor the PT into this, Yoda and Obi-Wan decide to go into hiding because they failed to stop Palpatine. What was their plan? Just to wait and hope that the kids would somehow fix this?
If that was their plan, why did Yoda and Obi-Wan wait three years before telling Luke to go to Dagobah?

How much difference would it make if Luke says this in last few minutes of TFA or in the first few minutes of TLJ? Since TLJ starts pretty much right when TFA ends, would it matter that much?
If he did say that at the end of TFA then most likely he would have to say it again at the start of TLJ as people might need reminding.

About TLJ "fixing" TFA. In this instance, I think that what TLJ did is the equivalent of trying to fix a pothole by filling it with dynamite.

Nope, you are again implying a correlation that need not be there.
"I was away on holiday and in my absence, the painters painted my house."
Does this mean that these painters would not have painted the house if this person was present?
Does it imply that the absence of this person is what allowed the house to be painted?
Not really. It just says that something happened while this person was away.
Or "The study was completed in her absence." Again this does not mean that the study would not have been completed if she was present. It just says "This happened while a person was not there."

The only thing TFA establishes is that Luke left and after he was gone, the FO rose.

And you are sort of implying that Luke is the reason why the FO exist since you argue that IF he stayed put, then the FO would not have risen as he somehow would have prevented it.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The audience having to make assumptions, based on the information they are given, is a basic tenet of storytelling. The 'skill' is to ensure that the audience isn't having to create their own internal rationale for situations or character behaviour. Me having to explain this to you goes to the heart of why this doesn't compute for you. We know that Luke has the ability to feel things in the force. We know he has the ability to sense what's happening to others. We know he has premonitions (or can foresee events unfolding). We know that he can commune with Obi-Wan, Yoda and (we assume) his father, the Chosen One, Anakin Skywalker. That being the case, the assumption is logical that Luke should be cognisant of what is occurring in his absence... even if it's a sense of the ones he loves being in distress. Therefore, it is the antithesis of logic to make the huge assumption that Luke no longer has access to force ghosts, can no longer sense things in the force etc. It's on the writers to establish that and NOT the audience. Johnson does try and establish the 'why' in TLJ, to the dissatisfaction of many fans, but the issue is that it comes way too late in the natural sequencing of the story... and that's a result of the sequencing of the story never being understand from the outset.

No. It's just A, B and C.

I don't believe you are.

That's patently not the case. Force ghosts commune with the living across space and time in both the OT and PT. This is reenforced by the ST e.g. Palpatine speaking to Kylo via Vader's helmet and Kylo speaking to Rey via force Skype.

As per above and previous, 'creative license'. The films often show Jedi not utilising the skills they are supposed to have... primarily because if they did, it would render many scenes redundant. Maybe it's a skill reserved for only the most powerful force users? Maybe the Jedi don't like using it? Who knows? I think the issue is where it creates a gap in logic that affects the actual plot... as per Luke in the ST.

That isn't logical. It's actually illogical. As already stated, you are using the external creative license (employed in previous films), to explain gaps within the internal logic of the ST. That line of logic would be like assuming the Jedi ability to use 'force speed' can only happen on Trade Federation ships, because that's the only instance (TPM) where we see it employed. You are arbitrarily applying parameters to it. Why don't the Jedi use 'force speed' at every opportunity where there're running or chasing etc? The reality is that the filmmaker (in this case Lucas) is establishing the fact that Jedi posses super speed, but after it's established there isn't really a requirement to show it every time the Jedi are in action... especially if it makes any action scene redundant/problematic (creative licence), and not seeing the direct use of 'force speed' again doesn't create issues after the fact.

I'm not sure I ever stated that all Jedi have exactly the same abilities and levels of power did I? As that is clearly not the case. So that's another strawman you're arguing. However, it *is* established Luke has that ability/power... he can see things in the force, he can commune via the force and he can commune with force ghosts.

The darkside clouded their perception. Have you not watched the films in a while? That was a key plot point in the ST. I'm surprised you never picked up on that. No such plot point is ever established in the ST.

Again another facile strawman that underlines the nature of your debate. Where did I state that Luke would be aware of EVERYTHING going on in the galaxy?

Where is that clear? In the films? In a book? Please can you point me to the scenes in the films where it stated Luke was cognisant of the destruction of the Republic capitol and little else? I'd be interesting in seeing that scene again to better understand... or is that just an *assumption* on your part?

What is the relevance of your point? So you admit that Yoda could sense Anakin's emotions in the force? Yes or no?

So what's your point? Are you admitting that Anakin could sense events that *would* happen in the force? Are you admitting Obi-Wan could sense a disturbance in the force?

Again I'm not sure what your point is? The darkside clouding their perception was a specific plot point in the films. They knew their perception was being clouded by the Sith, but they were also bogged down in political unrest and a galactic Clone War, in which they were serving... but at no point, when they sensed the rising darkside, did they flee. Only when the Republic fell did Yoda and Obi-Wan make a tactical withdrawal to regroup and watch over the children of the Chosen One (which again was a specific plot point). Which is kind of the point isn't it? Luke didn't hang around... he just *did one*... to coin a Northern British saying.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are talking about Anakin's 'bad dreams' at the start of AOTC... so we don't know if Obi-Wan sensed them, but he was clearly cognisant of them. What's your point?

Again I'm not sure what your point is. It's established that the Jedi can sense things in the force, and sense them really strongly/viscerally. I can certainly accept that this is something that only really powerful Jedi have the ability to do... but isn't Luke 'really powerful'? Or are you now stating that Luke isn't powerful enough? Is that now the premise of your defence?

That's already answered above. I'll refer you to that. But I'd ask the question why would Vader sense Obi-Wan over Tatooine? It's not like they have a strong smell. One assumes that force users either have to 'reach out' through the force or limit the ability to be seen in the force (and we see this in the Obi-Wan Kenobi show). During the events of TFA, there is no reason to believe Leia wouldn't try to reach out to Luke in the force (given she's actively looking for him), or that Luke would limit the ability for others to see him in the force. It was Johnson who had to effectively and retrospectively provide an answer. And again, I'll state for the record, no one is stating that Luke and Leia should have been able to have a lengthy conversation across the galaxy (although TLJ and TROS certainly suggest that), but Luke should have been able to sense, at the very least, that his sister desperately needed him.

Again, your argument is so fatuous it's painful. When exactly did I say that force users can identify and pin point the exact location of other force users around the galaxy??? Is this really all you have? Making up spurious arguments? If Vader and Palpatine could do that, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Ahoska etc. would all be long dead. Try again or please desist with these unnecessary points.

Yes we know... and we also suspect that Palpatine used Shmi's pain to tempt Anakin to the darkside. What's your point?

Yet Leia still knew Luke was alive after the Death Star blew... Hmmm... perhaps that was more relevant to the plot/scene that Luke knowing his sister had been shot? Just a guess...

What's your point?

The opening crawl states that the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire... ergo remnants of the Empire still existed, or the First Order had already been formed, before Luke left. Furthermore, dialogue in the film suggests that Snoke has been around for some time (certainly whilst Ben Solo was training to be a Jedi)... so it's a fair assumption (IMO) that Snoke had something to do with the remnants of the Empire of the First Order. Maybe he just created the First Order in a day? Again this just speaks to how badly TFA establishes what's actually going on. I'd be very interested in you (assuming you have access to this information) providing a timeline, from the film itself, to how the First Order was formed, Snoke's part in that... and Luke's disappearance. Genuinely.

That's not correct. The film never states that Luke was 'concerned', that's purely your headcanon talking. The film states that Luke felt 'responsible' for Ben turning to the darkside and the subsequent destruction of the new Jedi... and so he chose to walk away from everything. That's Abrams/Kasdan creating the scenario for a Luke Skywalker that's withdrawn and in self-exile... which is something fans talked about after the release of TFA, and long before Johnson ever ran with it. TFA never speaks to Luke's 'concern' or a plan to redeem Ben Solo or take on the First Order, or learn the origin of Snoke etc. etc.

Or equally the first Jedi temple could be a place where Jedi go to be in self-exile or die. TFA never states a reason as to why Luke goes looking for a Jedi temple, but it does state why he left everything behind i.e. guilt.

Can you point me to where I said that the Jedi seeing the future was an ability they could *could* control? This is what happens when you start arguing strawmen. You lose focus.

It states that he 'left everything behind' because he felt 'responsible' for what had happened. TFA never states that Luke wanted to rectify the situation or that he was searching for answers and for more knowledge to fight Snoke and Kylo Ren. If Abrams had established that in TFA (which you incorrectly believe), Johnson wouldn't have been able to develop the idea of Luke being in self-exile, as it would have broken continuity with TFA... which it doesn't.

As I pointed out earlier, that's just you trying to rationalise what happens in TFA. None of that is established in TFA... certainly not satisfactorily, so you're (with respect) grasping at straws to try and make Luke's behaviour make sense and appear 'heroic' (or at least less un-Luke like)... which of course it objectively isn't. The Luke we know and love wouldn't leave Leia desperate and in need. And of course when we see him at the end of TFA, Luke looks rather solemn and forlorn. He doesn't seem like a man who has the answers or who is ready to 'go get em'. Everything that TFA establishes about Luke in TFA plays out in TLJ... to its extreme, granted, but it's consistent with what's in TFA nonetheless.

It means nothing and is reflective of dialogue and a story that is hollow to the point of vacuous. If you think it has potential, then 'that is on you'.

That is projection/wish fulfilment on your part... and whilst it's not particularly bad (and something I could get behind), none of that is actually in TFA. Expositional dialogue should be rather explicit and to the point... if it's going to achieve its core objective. The dialogue that Han states explicitly points to Luke feeling guilty/responsible for what happens, whilst citing the first Jedi temple is rather nebulas... and is (IMO) indicative of the lack of *intelligence behind the writing. Why not just state that Luke had felt compelled to trace the origins of Snoke or that Luke had felt a disturbance in the force coming from the farthest reaches of the galaxy e.g. Exegol or Moraband? That would have laid out a completely different path for Luke. It's not difficult.

(*intelligence - I'm not referring to the IQ of Abrams and Kasdan, but rather the application of creative intelligence)

Yes - but none of that is established in TFA. It's conjecture based on something we never got.

Better that (IMO) than breaking the existing narrative and making the classic characters look weak. New characters should have been integrated rather than having the classic characters be broken and in need of fixing. I think that's the worst kind of writing TBH.

The map has no real qualitative function anyway. It's a really bad use of a mcGuffin, not very logical, and actually doesn't align to your interpretation of the film anyway re. there being no threat/First Order before Luke left etc. etc.

I'm being perfectly clear... and it's quite simple. Do you think Ben turning to the darkside, and destroying the Jedi temple/Jedi students, should have been a red flag to Luke that something bigger was going on?

Why would Luke assume that given what he should know about Palpatine/Anakin and what happened at the culmination of the Clone Wars?

But he demonstrably *didn't* have the time did he? The NR was destroyed and Han Solo was killed. So Luke was wrong thinking that he had the time to go look for information. So even you, in your attempt to prop up TFA's writing, are inadvertently making Luke culpable.

It indicates nothing when it's not established what the objective is. You state 'knowledge', but again you're projecting. The film never states that... and even if Luke did go looking for 'knowledge' it was clearly a misplaced action, because the New Republic was obliterated in his absence.

Snoke is the leader of the First Order and he was on the scene prior to Ben Solo turning to the darkside, and had some form of relationship with him (we assume similar to Palpatine and Anakin?). That is all that is established in TFA with regards to this. But again to your point, that Luke didn't believe there was a 'threat' presented by Snoke and the massacre at the Jedi temple only speaks to Luke's failing... because he was demonstrably wrong in not believing there to be a clear and present threat to the galaxy.

We know that pivotal to Palpatine's succession to becoming 'Emperor' was him removing the Republics greatest line of defence i.e. the Jedi. And pivotal to that was the corruption of the powerful Jedi Anakin Skywalker. It seems Snoke had very similar ideas does it not? Strange that Luke was not able to join the dots.

But he does attack it 'from within'... as per above. He infiltrates the New Jedi Order and effectively wipes them out.

No strawman from me. If Snoke had a plan to destroy the Jedi and Republic, why would Luke believe there was no imminent danger and head off looking for Jedi temples and go radio silent with Leia et al?

Who knows? That's never elucidated on in TFA... but given what's established in the PT/OT, one would assume that the Republic and Jedi are on the same side/have vested interests. Isn't that a part of the narrative set out in the Lucas films?

So now you're creating a new reason for Luke to run off and go hide (?)... and again, yes I could understand the reasons for that... but this is never established in TFA. These are but the musings of fans that actually have more idea how to create a logical rationale for events than Abrams does.

And that would mean that Luke made a huge miscalculation when he took off, and that he is (at the very least 'in part') culpable for what happened. It's worth pointing out that I don't blame you for how you rationalise the actions of the characters... this is all because of what's presented in TFA... probably most damaging, what not sufficently established.

Again that's all headcanon and none of it comes to pass in TFA. I remember that before the release of TFA (after some spoilers and leaks suggested Luke was not going to feature in TFA much, but shown to be at a remote location), many of us mused how Luke could be protecting an ancient Sith tomb... and the First Order were out to get their hands on a Sith weapon or artefact that was hidden in that tomb. That idea had legs... and plays into the Jedi temple element... But again, that never came to pass in TFA... it was just a bunch of fans whom were incorrectly joining dots, but whom had a better appreciation of Star Wars. and better ideas for a Star Wars sequel than JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan.

I'd disagree. From what Leia states, Snoke appears to be an 'insider'... which is why I assume he had access to Ben Solo (?). Yes the First Order are technically an eternal military power, but TFA suggests that Snoke was playing both sides (similar to what Palpatine did with the Republic and the CIS). The key difference is that the PT is infinitely more layered and nuanced in how that dynamic is established than the ST.

I think anyone whom believes that Obi-Wan 'did nothing' whilst watching over Luke Skywalker on Tatooine, is being purposely obtuse or doesn't understand Star Wars... like at all... You're not JJ Abrams are you?

Do you really need me to tell you what the Jedi's plan was for going into hiding after the Galactic Empire was established? Yes, first and foremost it was to watch over Luke and Leia.. Luke being purportedly the 'new hope' for the galaxy. And whilst in hiding, for Yoda and Obi-Wan to commune with Qui-Gon and learn everything they needed to learn to defeat Palaptine (the key being the ability to retain identity after death). None of what happens in the ST, specifically in relation to the ST, has equivalence to that. All you're actually doing is highlighting how poor the ST is in comparison.

Who knows (?) maybe it took that long for Obi-Wan to perfect communing with Luke in more than 5 words (?)... but it kind of sounds like you're conflating the production time for the films being made with the internal events depicted. TESB wasn't going to start with Luke already on Dagobah and in training with Yoda was it??? That would be confusing. It was kind of fundamental to proceedings that the audience would need to see that instruction from Obi-Wan to seek Yoda out. It needed that 'handoff' for it to be consistent (relatively speaking). Again, that's a good example of where you're using 'whataboutism' to defend TFA, when all you're really achieving is to highlight the gulf between how artistic license and plotting is infinitely more sophisticated and considered in the Lucas era films, relative to the ST.

The difference is a story, narrative and characters that are connected across 3 films... and by virtue... the entire 9 films. If that had been established properly in the first film, it creates a direction of travel that the 2nd film must (or should) go. That it isn't in the first film only speaks to how disconnected things are. The reality is that Abrams/Kasdan were not focused on what Luke's story was going to... it was probably all rather nebulas for them... they are on the record as saying Han Solo was the character they were more interested in, and obviously it shows. No wonder then that any elements connected to Luke are so thinly drawn that Johnson has to resolve them the best way he can. *The caveat to this (and perhaps the wider argument) being that we don't really know what went on behind the scenes, as far as TFA and TLJ are concerned. For all we know it could have been Kennedy's idea to have a galaxy weary and withdrawn Luke... equally it could have been Johnson who said 'I want Luke to be a loser in my film, so if you reference Luke at all in TFA, please can you make sure you depict him as being sad, guilty, pathetic so it line sup with what I have in store'. But in terms of this current debate, I'm arguing what's presented in the films, not necessarily whose idea it was. If it turns out that everything in TFA concerning Luke was written at the behest of Johnson (which isn't my understanding), then I'll look to Johnson.

As per above. The absence of it only speaks to the fact that Luke's story, what he was doing, was never a real consideration for Abrams.

Possibly. I'm not trying to defend TLJ's issues... just highlighting where it's consistent with what TFA presents.

It doesn't need to be there... but it is... that's the point.

Grammatically speaking, yes, it implies that there is a direct correlation between your absence and your house being painted. Otherwise it's a redundant statement. People don't tend to say, for example, "in my absence it was a Tuesday morning"... Or "In my absence the war in the Ukraine broke out". It's grammatically incorrect. As already stated, in this context, it suggests causation... If Abrams didn't mean it to suggest that, then he needs to brush up on his grammar (like we all do of course).

It isn't my intention to imply that Luke is the reason the First Order to exist. That's like saying the Jedi were responsible for the Empire existing. I don't think that's the objective here. Rather, this about what the implications are of having an absent Luke in TFA, given the **** that goes down in his absence, and how that plays into the next film where he's much more prominent in the story. And I'm arguing that Abrams and Kasdan kicking Luke into the long grass, without clear and well thought out motivation for him being absent (and that's directly tied to the narrative), creates a structural problem that runs throughout the entirety of the ST. Preferences aside, Luke Skywalker is the singular most important character of the OT. He's the one 'classic' character that TFA should have been built around. Excluding him from the first film, and linking him directly to the main villain (Kylo Ren) was a very poor creative choice that impacts the entire ST.[/QUOTE]

 

Luke being held prisoner by Snoke would have made sense to me. That would have to be established in TFA. That way Luke could have his setback, even flirt with the dark side as his anger grows and still not give up, which is the lamest possible scenario for Luke to me. Then Rey and Han can go rescue him.

 

I still like my Luke was Snoke all along theory. It made little sense., But still more sense than what we got

 

Or your perspective may be trying to rationalize what you perceived from TFA.

 

My post got way too long, so I'll try to cut it down.
Summary;

The lack of plan is one of the major flaws of the ST. Not hammering out an outline for all three films. What happens, who the characters are and so on.
But I also think ep VII and IX compounded the problem by either ignoring what had happened previously or going against it.
With Luke, TFA could have done a much better job but I think TLJ could have done something different than what it did. I do not think TFA ruined everything for the ST.

But you are making assumptions of what Luke should be able sense and do, that he should be able to speak to Leia through the Force across the galaxy, which is an ability never shown.
The only instances where that happens is at much closer range.

You are the one creating the logic gap by insisting that this ability exists. And try to hand wave away instances where it would be useful and not used.
That is not logical. Instead it is far more logical to think that Force telepathy is limited by range.
That fits with what we see in the films and does not create logic holes.

Except Force speed IS actually used. You can discuss why it isn't used more but that is not what is going on here.
Force users speaking telepathically across the galaxy is NOT used. It is done at much close distances.
And since proximity has been showed as relevant when it comes to Force users sensing each other and the like. Then it fits that this ability is also limited by range.

It again comes down to internal logic. Yoda was able to sense something that Mace, who was quite powerful, did not. So Yoda being able to do something is not concrete proof that Luke should be able to do the same thing. What Luke was able to do was to sense Han and Leia being tortured and he could speak in Leia's mind when they were close by. It was never shown that he could speak in her mind across the galaxy.

In think you mean the PT and yes I was aware of that. My point was the abilities of Jedi can be influenced by outside factors. And in TFA, the Dark Side seemed quite strong.

The relevance is your argument is that Luke should have sensed what happened in the galaxy prior to TFA and should have come back and tried to fix them. He didn't and so you argue that TLJ Luke, that had totally given up, was the only/most logical approach for a sequel to TFA.
I disagree. Yoda sensed something with Anakin and apparently did nothing about it. Yoda likely also sensed the DS destroying Alderaan and yet he did nothing for three years.
So does that make him someone that has given up? If not, why must a film following TFA have a Luke that has given up?

Obi-Wan likely did not sense anything about Anakin's nightmares about his mother nor did he sense Anakin's distress. He knew of them because it seems that they had talked about them before.
Anakin had dreams visions about future events yes but that a jedi CAN get visions about future events does not mean they WILL get such visions.

My point is that you argue that Luke should have sensed Han and Leia being unhappy or sad.
And yet Obi-Wan did not sense Anakin's distress about his nightmares nor did he sense what Anakin felt with the sand people. That means that Force users does not have to sense what others are feeling, even when those emotions are strong.

Was Mace really powerful? Anakins says so and yet he did not sense what Yoda sensed.
So being powerful does not have to mean you can sense a lot of stuff.
Was Luke shown to be all that powerful in the OT?

Again, the issue is RANGE. Vader senses Obi-Wan when Obi-Wan is close by even when Obi-Wan is not doing anything. Vader does not sense Obi-Wan when he is much further away. This goes to establish that distance matters when it comes to Force users and them sensing other Force users.
We see this again in RotJ. Luke and Vader sense each other when they are close even when neither is doing anything overt with the Force.

Would Leia have the ability to reach out through the Force and "find" Luke? She can sense that he is alive in RotJ but again, range.

Given Finns age and him saying the FO took him when he was a child. Then the FO would have been doing that for at least ten years. The crawl says that the FO arose after Luke had left, so when Luke was around, the FO was either small or it had not really been formed as that. It could be surviving imperials trying to build up some sort of power. Either way, Luke is not established as knowing about them or what they could do.
Snoke either pulled in parts of those various imperial forces or he had been behind them

So what Snoke did was first taking out Luke's new Jedi, so they would not be a factor, and then he went and built up his military.
Given TFA, it seems that the FO military was not strong enough to take out the NR or conquer the galaxy. Hence why they built SKB, this was their way to win.

That explanation makes little sense. If that was how it was used in the PT and before, then Anakin would have known about it and he most certainly would have told Palpatine. Would Palpatine just leave a Jedi temple standing? Unlikely.
And if that was how it was used then more people would know about it and it would not be that hard to find.

Based on TFA, I would have thought that Rey falling for Kylo would not be a thing a sequel could develop but RJ did it.

What you said was that Anakin turned to the dark side and purged the Jedi order. My point is that Anakin did not purge all Jedi by himself, the clone army did most of the purging.
Yes Luke should and likely was aware that something bigger was going on. So the idea that he left to find knowledge can be made to work.

First, the PT Jedi thought the Sith were all dead, they were wrong. They did not know or consider Dooku turning to dark side until the end of AotC. They were wrong about several things.
Were they culpable?

Did the PT Jedi make miscalculations? I would say so.

Would Luke staying around prevent SKB from being built? Would Luke be aware of it? Obi-Wan certainly did not seem aware of the DS before it was used.
If the FO builds SKB and uses it to take out the NR central system. Could Luke have stopped that?

Actually, turning Anakin was not crucial for Palpatine to wipe out the Jedi, the clone army was.
If Anakin did not exist, he could do Order 66 anyway and take over.

But TFA does not establish Luke's Jedi as being part of the defense of the NR. They most likely would have been but they were not at this time. The NR did have a fleet so it did have some defenses.
So it seems that the NR had fought what was left of the empire and won. Luke's jedi most likely did not play a part here. So the NR can deal with military threats. So Luke, knowing this, and thinking that Snoke and Kylo do not have big army, then they can not, as yet, destroy the NR.

Who knows is not much of answer.
And the story, as presented, have Yoda and Obi-Wan wait three years while their two hopes are being hunted by the Empire. For no given reason. And it is even more odd when Yoda complains that Luke is too old.

Anyway, my point is this, Yoda and Obi-Wan are away while a lot of bad things happen and they don't leap into action to stop them. You are fine with this because because you think a good enough reason has been provided for their inaction.
But you are not fine with Luke's absence because you think a good enough reason has not been provided.

I think that TLJ could have provided a better reason than it did.
I do not think that what RJ did was inevitable or the only way forward.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Well I'd always trust my own judgment more.