ST J.J. Abrams (Director Of TFA & TROS) Discussion Thread—Now Finally Discussing: JJ Abrams

The assumption is yours; as you are creating a criteria that's not established in the films. Besides, as already stated, this isn't about arguing the distance over which force users can communicate (I'm more than willing to accept that the distance for 'force speaking' isn't infinite), but rather, that there's more than enough established in both the OT and PT, that suggests Luke *should* be able to be cognisant of what's going on in the galaxy... be it by communicating directly, feeling it in the force, having premonitions or by speaking to the force ghosts Obi-Wan, Yoda or Anakin (whom seem to be mysteriously absent from proceddings). Ultimately, there's nothing established (apart from what Johnson establishes in TLJ) that explains why Luke wouldn't be cognisant of what's going on in the galaxy, even at a high level, to at least pick up a space phone. And the logical conclusion, at the end of TFA, is that Luke knew but didn't act, or he didn't have the ability to act... but that's a premise entirely constructed by Abrams. Johnson just runs with it...

No... the gaps in the internal logic are created by TFA. And you are compounding it by trying to defend bad writing/plotting... and conflating (either incidentally or as a way to obfuscate) how creative licence is (or can be) used. Again I ask, why don't the Jedi use force speed after the one instance in TPM. Is it that force speed only works on Trade Federation ships, a skill only Qui-Gon knows, and which he can imbue Obi-Wan with when close by? Or is it that once established, Lucas didn't feel the need to keep having to reenforce it? You're kind of trying to argue the former.

As is communicating telepathically. Are you stating that this isn't established in the OT/PT???

Nothing in the OT/PT establishes the proximity required for telepathy. You understand that right?

I think you're conflating a couple of things. You've ignored the example I gave of the deleted scene from the opening scenes of ROTJ (between Luke and Vader), but are you trying to argue that telekinesis only works from within the same room? Do you have to be within line of sight? The thing is, when you create an arbitrary criteria (like you're doing), you then get lost in defining the exact parameters of it. Point is, you don't know.

So Mace couldn't feel things in the force? Is that what you're stating?. I think you're getting confused by your own defence. The OT clearly establishes that Luke can feel things in the force, can speak/communicate telepathically and can see events taking place before they happen. The idea that Luke only has the ability to sense people only when they are being tortured is beyond parody.

Yes the PT. It's never alluded to at all in TFA that the darkside is, or has, clouded the abilities of Luke and Leia. Indeed, if Luke believed his abilities were being clouded by the darkside, that wound run contrary to what you had previously said i.e. that Luke believed the galaxy was not in imminent danger when he left. Which do you believe it to be.

I'd take it a step back, and say that Luke should have been cognisant of the danger the galaxy was in (after Ben's turn and the sacking of the Jedi Academy)... and his first act should have been to sit down with Leia, Han et al and formulate a plan... and not to feel responsible and leave everything behind... which in effect, left the galaxy exposed. In relation to your other point... I'd say that a Luke Skywalker who was cognisant of what was occurring, but chose to not intervene (for whatever reason) is the logical conclusion to reach at the end of TFA... especially as Luke is revealed to be starring out to looking dejected and sad... There are several ways Abrams could have visually presented a Luke that was upbeat, ready for the fight, slotting into place the last piece of the jigsaw before jumping into action... etc. etc. but Luke at the end of TFA is none of those things... Ergo, Johnson has to reconcile it.

Again you are conflating your argument. Could Yoda sense something bad was going on with Anakin when he slaughtered the Tuskens. YES or NO? Yoda doing 'nothing about it' is not germane to the point.

Yet again conflating your argument. How is him 'doing nothing for three years' relevant?

The OT and PT palpably show Yoda as someone who has not 'given up'. Yoda and Obi-Wan are rather pivotal in the downfall of the Empire and the Jedi's return. Do you really not see it that way? Do you see the defeat of the Sith and the Empire being 'despite' Yoda and Obi-Wan's attempts and not, in part, 'because'? With all respect, that's a rather bizarre way to frame Yoda and Obi-Wan's function in the OT/PT.

The films don't tell us either way, but it's Shmi's distress not Anakin's per se that's the crucial element right? No one is arguing that Luke in the ST should sense when Han or Leia or having bad dreams...

But we know that both Luke and Leia have 'visions' and can see things in the force... and this is reenforced by the Abrams films too. Are you arguing that Luke and Leia don't have this ability?

We don't know what Obi-Wan could sense re. Anakin in that scene, as that isn't the lens through which the information is provided to the audience. But I'm guessing he probably didn't know because he wasn't specifically tuned into it... as Mace wasn't etc. but Yoda clearly was. And we suspect (or should suspect) that this has something to do with insight into the 'living force' and Qui-Gon attempting to commune with Yoda from the netherworld. And it's this path of learning and enlightenment that Luke Skywalker is ultimately privy to, as Luke gets his instruction post the events of ROTS.

If you don't believe Luke Skywalker is established as being a very powerful Jedi... then I'm not sure this specific path of discourse has much road left to run. If you're now going to start arguing that Luke was a bog standard, entry level force user, then that's a rather fundamental disagreement.

We simply don't know. And as per previous replies. When using telekinesis, why/how would 'range' play into that? The films never establish that force users have to have a line of sight etc. Palpatine speaks to Kylo Ren from across the galaxy, and in the voices of Vader and Snoke... Vader doesn't need to be in the same room to force choke, Yoda can watch Luke on Tatooine from Dagobah. So how does that work if one needs to be in close proximity? We do know that force users can 'not give out' so to speak. We know that Palpatine, Maul and Dooku were able to hide themselves in the force... so I think we can safely assume that force users have to be 'open' to being detectable etc.

I'd assume yes, or at least get a good indication... as long as Luke is open to being found.

Your extrapolation doesn't mean that Luke didn't know of the First Order, but at the very least I think we can assume they weren't as prominent (but given they rose from the ashes of the Empire, that should makes them a clear and distinct threat). Do we even know, from TFA itself, how long Luke has been gone and how long Ben has been Kylo Ren? If Finn has been a stormtrooper for circa 10 years, then the First Order have been around for at least 10 years right? But the opening crawl to TFA suggests it's much more recent. "Luke Skywalker HAS vanished" (present tense). Again, even the opening crawl is poorly constructed that it makes the sequencing of events rather opaque.

But even an unsophisticated despot would understand that securing a military arm/presence, would need to happen before taking out/on the Jedi. There's a reason why Palpatine set up a clone army first, prior to taking on the Jedi.

Let's not get started on the black hole of creativity, and how it's established, that is SKB...

That would apply to every scenario where Luke wound want to find the first Jedi temple i.e. that Anakin or Ben Solo would know what the temple is used for. Point being, any reason for Luke finding a Jedi temple would have to be predicated on the notion that it's not something Snoke/Palaptine are privy to.

That doesn't make sense? Why would the Jedi publicise the use of an ancient Jedi temple for whatever reason it was used for? Why would you assume that Jedi went to the temple to die during the events of the PT, but not assume that it was a tradition more ancient and specific to the first Jedi for example? Who knows right? Point being, the first Jedi temple does not mean anything. It's something to project whatever one wants to project onto it. And the reasons it's that way is that Abrams inadequately establishes it.

Many of us assumed (correctly) that a redemption arc was being set up for Kylo Ren as soon as he was made a Skywalker i.e. Ben Solo. And when that happens, it pretty much makes any outcome possible. At the time, I was assuming Rey would turn out to be a Skywalker too... which would invariably mean that his redemption would have been achieved through 'love'. I personally prefer the sibling approach, but the mistake was making Kylo Ren a Skywalker. That was a big creative mistake IMO. It's also worth noting that Abrams cemented the 'lovers' angle by having them share bodily fluids in TROS. Abrams *could* have still made them brother and sister/cousins in TROS, if he'd had a mind to... he could have backtracked on the romance angle completely. TROS wouldn't have been any worse for that... in my opinion, it would have been better for it. But that's on Abrams.

That isn't germane to any point being made. The point is that the Jedi purge hinged on Anakin becoming Darth Vader.

But again that's projection. Why would he require knowledge and what would that knowledge need to be? None of that is established in TFA, and 'traditionally' it's the first act that establishes what the mission/requirements are. But because TFA is constructed so poorly, it's all kind of done retrospectively and without any substance to move the story forwards.

The Jedi of the PT were culpable in several areas. The Jedi had increasingly become dogmatic, bound up in the bureaucracy and politics of the Republic and were being less mindful of the living force, but I'm not sure what the relevance is to the wider point (?)... unless it's to highlight that even despite of the PT's Jedi's shortfalls, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace didn't just walk away from everything. They stood and fought for (and were shown to stand and fight for) the Republic and democracy.

Again no relevance.

We don't know because those options are never presented in the story/film. Luke's absence from proceedings is totally circumscribe in the events of TFA. If they weren't, I think Luke's characterisation, and the wider story, would have been significantly improved.

The whole PT, and the Sith gaining revenge, pivots on Anakin's fall to the darkside and him joining forces with Palpatine... otherwise Palpatine was just wasting his time and the entire premise would be shot. Seriously, I strongly recommend watching the films.

The Jedi are already firmly (and forever) established as being the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. If this isn't their raison detra in the ST (in this instance TFA), then the film needs to clearly establish that this isn't the case and that they are entirely passive, or 'grey' or whatever... So that's another fail.

So it seems that Luke, his Jedi padawans and the NR had fought what was left of the empire and won. Luke's Jedi played a significant part here. See what I did there?

Yet they do destroy the New Republic.

Then I suggest you take that up with George Lucas directly.

The reason is explicit. The Empire have taken over the galaxy and Yoda and Obi-Wan are in hiding and waiting for 'a new hope' (Luke) to train. Whether Yoda actually believes Luke is too old to train or too old, in principle, is never really explored in the story because it's a redundant thread i.e. Yoda does complete Luke's training, and Luke goes off to both redeem Darth Vader, and in doing so, defeat the Emperor and Empire. I shouldn't really be having to explain the OT to you some circa 40 years after it was released... or is it that you don't like the OT?

You've kind of reduced the point to its most banal. How characters and situations are established in a story; how they are given function within a plot, and how concepts and characters are developed, is absolutely fundamental to how effective a story is told/a film functions. So yes, I think the OT handles all those things with a level of sophistication, technique and skill that is, more often than not, completely absent from the ST... and in this instance TFA.

So if we're talking hypotheticals, why does that mean that what Abrams did in TFA was 'inevitable'? TFA shat on everything that Lucas had created and developed in the OT/PT.

 

lol this whole plan thing was just about darth sidious and the characters that were connected to him. they never said they had a plan on every single thing and thats why jj and chris say the way the last jedi was written at the end worked because it lined up with what they were working for in episode 9 with darth sidous and the characters that are connected to him. Also plan in the way kk said it wasn't like they totally planned it out one by one there were changes which makes sense. Like at marvel for example, they too had sort of a plan like Star Wars where they knew the end goal and beginning about thanos just didn't know for the middle. everybody is like marvel planned everything so perfectly, absolutely no because if it were than we would not of spider man nor would Inhumans be canceled.

 

Marvel are constantly making changes. They know they are heading for Secret Wars and that's their goal. But in terms of where the characters fit, they are constantly figuring that out.

 

yeah lol

 

But whether or not they write that well is the question. The ST, to me, didn't.

 

well thats you and me i disagree but i think this all opinion based now

 

I was just struck by a feeling of TROS/Christmas nostalgia.
That's... interesting!

There's just something about epic movies released around Christmas though, isn't there? No matter what I think of them, if I saw them during that season for the first time, they'll always have that extra layer of magic. Especially when I rewatch them in December.

 

agreed

 

For me, yes, as my nephew and I had a tradition of taking the whole extended family to see them every Christmas, when I was back home once a year.

 

I have the same feeling about Christmas and Star Wars, but for different reasons.
The Christmas of 96. The SE trilogy was about to come out and I got Boba Fett's Slave I that year.
Oh, do I miss that thing .
A small mention to the Taco Bell Boba Fett and Sarlac stand

 

Based on his SW projects, to me JJ is good when it comes to introducing new characters with good chemistry but is very clumsy when it comes to wrapping up characters arcs and reveals. He's truly all about mystery boxes.

 

He's a Cenobite

 

He’s never good. JJ is all corporate fluff.

 

At least TFA had Kasdan to rein in some of JJ's worst tendencies since he already had experience in writing SW movies with Lucas. TFA's story wasn't really ambitious and should have focused more on the girl's journey to become a Jedi that Lucas set up before selling the company imo but at least it had likeable main protagonists. I wasn't entirely on board with the FO as villains until the Resistance animated series though.

 

I'm not really sure what Kasdan brought to the table. The only specific I know of is he came up with the idea that Finn was a former stormtrooper, which is probably the most original idea of the trilogy. But none of that background concept ever informed the how character was depicted. Other than wanting to run away from the FO, and writing Finn has always having been in the exact right FO room to learn of much needed information for the plot to continue. Which makes it kind of pointless in the end.

I believe I also read that it was he who figured out that all the heroes - Luke, Leia, Han. the droids, Ben, etc - should all be separated and in their own paths. Was that an interesting idea? Maybe. Was it a well-executed idea? Probably not so much in hindsight.

I'm guessing it was also his idea that Han and Leia be divorced/separated after a failed relationship. Wasn't he the one who always hated their romance? I can't remember anymore.

So much of the story seems to have been written as they filmed. It must have been almost pure chaos at times. And the final result is still one there the world-building doesn't make sense, the narrative is just a copy of ANH, characters have little proper motivation, and don't seem to make logical choices, there are no stakes, too much is hidden in mystery boxes, and the trilogy itself was never really planned out as a story.

 

I wouldn't doubt it. It wasn't by accident that all the OT heroes had totally failed by the ST time. Someone had to write that and check box each one. lol.

 

According to TLJ's art book, the art department learned the Jedi Killer character would be Han's son and that he would kill him in late summer 2013 so by the time Arndt was still trying to write script drafts.

 

Except JJ took credit for killing Han when Kasdan had him going to the next movie and for making the Jedi Killer into Han's son. He said that when TFA came out.

The art of TLJ wasn't written by uninterested narrators and I well remember the whole "oh, look at the art book, all the decisions about Luke were from George!" when the whole TFA narrative was "we departed from George" and George himself said they threw everything out. There was a week of "it's from George so shut up you haters" when people got upset about Luke's "journey" in TLJ.

That one is really weird. I remember seeing the whole "everyone separated " in Ardnt and also someone saying it was JJ's idea to give each one their own movie. Which is stupid beyond belief - it's not like they all hated each other and what were people coming back to see but Luke, Han and Leia TOGETHER. That's what so hacked me off about "TFA was great and fun" and then when Luke died in TLJ, oh, it's all Rian's fault - even that Luke, Han and Leia never reunited. I read this in so many comments in social media and thought "did you MISS Han dying in TFA? What was Rian supposed to do?" One thing I'll give Rian a pass for, but then again, he asked JJ to do certain things so...of course, if Han was there, it would have been Han vs Holdo and ooh, boy, would I have not wanted to see that.

Of course, once JJ comes up with resurrection as a Force power, then Kylo looks so much worse...not that that was particularily hard to do.

 

JJ is a nerd who tries desperately to appeal to people he thinks are cooler than he is.

 

Agreed. I can't ever imagine that Lucas would have taken that approach. I think he may have still had Luke, Leia and Han in reduced roles over the course of the ST (reduced in terms of what fans of Luke, Leia and Han may have perhaps wanted)... but I think they would have been more relevant to the narrative, and I believe Lucas wouldn't have portrayed them as being abject failures... personally and professionally.

 

I'm totally fine with the OT heroes all being separated for a portion of the movie. That could be interesting. Luke in exile, Han on some important NR mission, Leia trying to keep the fragile peace back home. Something.

But damnit, they need to reunite them in the third act before the big finale happens.

 

Yes... absolutely.

 

I admit having all 3 of them interact, even if only for a single scene, would have made me smile.

 

Pablo Hidalgo’s last few tweets are…interesting.