ST J.J. Abrams (Director Of TFA & TROS) Discussion Thread—Now Finally Discussing: JJ Abrams

This isn't about what each person does in the movie, it's about what their respective roles are, and Finn never was the lead. Starting with him doesn't somehow make him the lead. ANH doesn't start with Luke, yet he is clearly the main character, while R2 and C-3PO most definately are not, and neither is Vader. All the effects of the force are connected to her, not to Finn. That makes her the lead. There was no point where Finn was in any way connected to the force. Nor was he the one who stood up to Kylo Ren, it was Rey who made the first move.

Rey also doesnt "go to Luke for some reason", the entire movie already hinted at that, especially the scene at Maz' castle.

That simply isn't true, the connection was already there, created in TFA.

Yes, it is very much debatable. There is nothing to indicate that Finn was the lead. He was not connected to the storyline surrounding the force. He was one of the big characters, and he remained in that role throughout the trilogy, and that's about it.

There was no shock twist of Rey being the "real" Jedi, nor was it ever hinted at that Finn would be the one. In fact, everything that happens to that point makes it clear that the force is connected to Rey. She is the one with the hidden past, she is the one who has a force-vision, she is the one who has a battle of the minds with Kylo Ren. All of that happens prior to the fight. Pretending that there was a sudden reversal makes no sense at all. Nothing hinted at Finn being the one, therefore no rug could possibly be pulled from under him.

Budding rivalry? What rivalry?
He was basically nothing but a little bug for Kylo Ren, which he could toy with and torture a bit. He got destroyed by a Kylo Ren who was badly wounded and didn't even show a bit of care about the fight. The rivalry was clearly set up between Kylo Ren and Rey. They had the battle of the minds, she was the one that caused him to run to Snoke. Heck, Finn had a tough time dealing with a stormtrooper one-on-one, needing to be bailed out by Han.

What role could Finn possibly play with Luke?
He had no business being there. Nor was he in any way "cut off at the knees". Sounds more like you desperately wanted him to be something he wasn't supposed to be. Not being a Jedi doesn't somehow make a character meaningless. Han and Leia weren't "cut off at the knees" just because they didn't go to visit Yoda, nor was there "literally nothing for them to do". This idea that you only mean something if you are a Jedi or directly get to engage the antagonist is just absurd.

I couldn't disagree more with your interpretation of the end-fight in TFA either. For one, there was never any reason to expect Finn to face Kylo Ren again. Secondly, the whole movie went out of its way to show how powerful Chewie's bowcaster was, blowing armored people away like it was nothing. Kylo Ren was hit by such a shot, a shot that should have killed him, yet he survived. And they showed that he was badly wounded multiple times afterwards. Yet even in that state, he throws Rey away like it is nothing, toys with Finn until he gets bored by the fight, and then has Rey constantly on her backfoot for the entire fight without much effort until they reach the chasm. Then, and only then, with him stopping to engage her, to try and turn her, and her reaching into the force, does she get the strength to fight back and overcome the badly wounded Kylo Ren.

 

I didn't say he was. I was presenting a rebuttal to the concept of him being akin to Han. He can be prominent to the story as a character in regards to the structure and not be the leading character. I think I said something like Rey being in that role, to me. The effects of the force aren't really my main focus. Rey opens fire on Kylo. Finn is the one who takes the lightsaber and engages in a personal fight.

Rey has no connection to Luke as a person. Leia has no reason to send Rey.

That's not a connection that I think TLJ was presenting, but a different one.

 

Totally agree JJ Abrams created Kylo Ren so writing him in as the big bad was hardly a big push and I can't understand why he didn't feel he could or want to do it as Kylo being the big bad was fully set up in TLJ an no hints of Palpatine what so ever so bringing him back was the biggest sticking point on TROS - I mean Colin Treverrow wasn't bring Palpatine back in the flesh so why the heck did Abrams

 

They knew/felt/saw that Kylo wasn't a very marketable main villain after the backlash that TLJ got. If Kylo showed more power/threat and had Palpatine like powers (like how Gohan had these powers that Goku hadn't in Dragonball) then the audience may be more threatened by him. But when you have the female lead beat him twice, going into 9 what makes you think she won't do it again? Plus they saw Palpatine being the more bankable character.

 

I certainly think most of the ST’s ills start with TFA... and I believe most people who dislike (or think the ST sub par) feel the same. Bad concepts, weak characters and a very regressive/derivative story.

 

And reading that list you mentioned, those weaknesses could have still been addressed/fixed in TLJ. But RJ purposely tossed that list aside. That's why TFA doesn't work with TLJ and vice versa.

TLJ feels more of what Logan was to the Xmen series. A one off epilogue movie for Luke. JJ kinda tried to strengthen those weaknesses in TROS but it was really too late. Finn showed some force powers but so what? Why even show it now? Way too late. Kylo was a little more dynamic here than the previous film. Luke and Snoke though didn't really get backed up properly.

Also a question. You mentioned that they didn't like Finn being in that preferred male lead. LFL. Do we know if they were the ones to indicate for Johnson to write Finn away from Rey and into that goose chase? Or was that Johnson's plan all along?

I just don't get the hate LFL had for Finn/Boyega if that's the case. Why even bring him into TFA if race/character/overshadowing is going to be a problem? They wanted Driver to be the main more popular guy over Boyega? I mean I felt like there was enough pieces of the pie to go around for the four mains in this. Could have been a love triangle between the 3 and caused conflict/jealously between Finn and Rey to. If fans/audience liked Finn so much in TFA and LFL was really thrown off by that then shame on them.

Because I felt Finn had the potential to be one of the most outstanding characters in the franchise. He could have been super bankable to.

 

It’s all largely subjective of course, and in some ways dependant on ones view of Luke’s characterisation, Finn’s progression and the positioning of ‘Rylo’ in TLJ. For me, whilst those things are of course fundamental, it’s TFA that sets the scene with such structurally weak foundations, that I think pretty much any sequel to TFA would have failed. And whilst not condoning what Johnson did with TLJ, I’m not sure it’s fair to pin on him the accountability of making the Empire versus Rebels v2 plot more interesting, or taking inferior versions of OT villains/heroes and making them much more compelling, repairing the damage by not having the ability to have Luke, Leia and Han on screen together again etc.

 

While I don't put much on Johnson for the lack of Han, and I do think TFA wasn't doing much new or interesting, I think TLJ didn't help really.

 

In my opinion, J J put more effort into directing Lost than Star Wars episodes 7 and 9.

 

Agreed...

 

I think Abrams put in the effort, but his brand of attachment to the original films hindered his creativity and led to something much too safe and stale. Both his Trek films have so much more style and energy to me compared to what he did in Star Wars.

 

I don't think the filmmakers hated Finn, but they clearly wanted Rey and Kylo together and it would be very difficult to do that with Finn around.

 

Or maybe Rian saw what some of the viewers saw... that Finn wasn't a good character in TFA. All he did was drool after Rey. In TLJ he had his own story arc separate from hers and was his own person at the end of the movie with his own motivations and goals. And then in TROS he was back to being the simpleton running after Rey and screaming her name like a crazy person.

 

His own story arc was a B plot that had him stumble through it that's barely relevant to his character (it being DJ going "don't join" using nonsense logic and then Finn going "you're wrong" not long after, that some would think he already could've learned by Han pointing out the situation to him and seeing Han die) or the plot of the movie as a whole (only relevant based on the plot of the movie being too dumb to consider that 2 force users, one of which can apparently use a force bond to project 2 people to see eachother, and another who is shown to sense his mom, could sense almost no one was on the ship) and can still be seen as a poor retread of his arc from TFA, that assumes Finn's character hasn't already reached that point (him having bonded with Han and Poe, and the movie show what I think is a reaction of horror and then anger at Han's death) after Han points out the situation to him, he sees Han die and fights and is hurt by Kylo. I think Finn operates on no active personal motive by the end of TLJ, and that TLJ holds the Finn character hostage in a pointless arc of him becoming a rebel, a further retread, to me, of Han Solo, instead of using the potential of the character's connection to the stormtrooper concept. I think it's borderline filler as an arc and serves little, as if the movie started and Finn was committed to the resistance, I don't think many, if any, would question it. He didn't only drool after Rey. That's just not true.

 

TLJ is the longest Star Wars movie ever and it doesn't follow up on anything from TFA, characterizations, plot hooks etc. I really wish they had just had Arbams direct and write the whole thing. Finn's plot in TLJ could have been left on the cutting room floor well like 90% of it anyway and it wouldn't have affected the movie. Heck we waste so much time on Poe and Holdo. About 2/3 of TLJ is pointless filler and I am sure that JJ would have done better than that

 

I honestly don't know how anyone could say that Abrams could do better after TFA and especially TROS. He should never have been let anywhere near Star Wars.

 

RJ is superior to JJ, his movies shows that and all JJ dosen't do movies, he does products. the only intresting thing he did is maybe Lost.

 

In all honesty JJ and RJ should never have been let anywhere near Star Wars. I enjoyed TFA but the mystery boxes which JJ loves had the potential to be incredibly problematic which they did become. TROS suffered a lot because of both JJ and RJ creating just a mess that was very difficult to conclude in one film. At least if JJ had done VIII we would have had one consistent through line and plot for the ST instead of this completely uncohesive mess that it turned into

 

^100% accurate

While I believe it wouldn't have been as bad if there were one director, I still think both of these individuals were exactly wrong for Star Wars. There simply isn't anything beyond a passing acknowledgement for the previous material or the spirit in which it was crafted in the first place. For the most part, I get the impression from the ST "creatives" that established Star Wars lore was viewed as an obstacle to be avoided, rather than an asset to be further developed. Sure, each seemingly liked certain aspects of Star Wars in passing, but I do not get any inclination from either of them that there was any focus on respecting that past or a desire to bring it into a higher resolution such that their new material provided the same sort of platform to build upon that GL had.

 

Overtime I have seriously come to dislike JJ as a filmaker. I did enjoy some of his films but Super 8 and Both of his Trek films were just not great. 2009 was okay but had some serious problems. You can see all of those issues amped up to about 10 though in how he put together TROS. I just don't feel like either JJ or RJ really love the franchise and Kasdan is probably the only reason VII was an okay Star Wars films. Suffice it to say JJ and his team have left a stain on both Trek and Wars currently. TFA and 2009 while being good starts had some shaky ground underneath them and both franchises have tumbled since. While Star Wars has caught itself with the Mandalorian. Trek is in a far worse position thanks to Kurtzman having been given the reigns. It's ironic how similar the position of both franchises are and the problems arguable start with JJ. Trek is underperforming and if CBS had anything else to sell all access with Star Trek would probably go back in the vault as it is it's their only way to sell all access so they are continuing with it despite it not being nearly as profitable and Netflix straight up passing on Picard after how bad Discovery S1 did for them in terms of ROI. Star Wars suffered the same fate with stumbling and underperforming while still being profitable thankfully LFL has competent people in charge of the TV division that have stopped the bleeding while the latter has continued.

If Sci-Fi wasn't in the sorry state that is is right now and now real contenders for the throne both Trek and Wars would have to be very concerned. While the Expanse is great and has a good TV adaptation (the books are so much better) it didn't quite capture audiences and the second season wasn't as good as the first. If someone creates a new incredibly compelling Sci - Fi or say adapts Mass Effect to the small or Big Screen and fixed the issues with the series ending both Trek and Wars would be in serious trouble.