ST J.J. Abrams (Director Of TFA & TROS) Discussion Thread—Now Finally Discussing: JJ Abrams

The conflict in the OT is a Civil War. Once the Emperor was killed, the Imperial senate was most likely put back in place and without a figurehead to push things, everything probably went back to relative normal. Even in ANH we get dialogue stating that the senators might start forming sympathy for the Rebellion only for Palpatine to dissolve the entire government. So it's not a stretch to say that, once Palpatine is gone, the senate would vie for peace.

The Rebellion never needed to be bigger, they just needed to be willing to fight long enough for the citizens of the Empire to realize how backwards everything had gotten.

 

Who do Rian's choices make JJ to blame for them? I don't think a lot of what JJ did forced Rian to tell the story how he decided to tell it. The one thing I think may have been more of a story struggle was it ending on a cliffhanger, and even that I think could face a workaround.

I don't think that the idea Rian gets is really to blame on JJ. I don't think JJ necessarily intended or forced Rian to do what he did with Luke. A broken Luke doesn't have to be what Rian did with him.

I think of it as their character's having bizarre and even poor story choices moreso for them. I think Rians had more poor character decisions for them. Hux, in spite of me seeing him as a joke in TFA, I think the character was treated more seriously. I think Rian is the one who translated the joke into literally being a joke, to me. Poe doesn't get a lot, and I think is an example of story shoddiness. I think I remember reading that Poe was supposed to die, but it got changed, so I think that may be why the character disappears for a chunk of the movie. Finn, I think, has a compelling concept character wise opening, and while I think may not have been taken as seriously as I think could've been in places, I think the character still has a strong character structure and potential story. Similar to Rey.

I think TLJ recycles conflicts some ways similarly and that nothing in TLJ is as much new or interesting as a defected stormtrooper for the movies. I think Kylo isn't a great villain, but he's not very explored, and I think the story isn't about him, so I don't necessarily think it has to really fully be. In a movie where Rian gives more time to Kylo, I think he continues with not giving the character much to go on. Finn being in a coma doesn't force Rian to re-do his arc. Han being a smuggler again, while I think it's weak regression character wise, I don't think it's an aggressive hurting of the character, as a whole. Similar, to me, Leia and Han's marriage issues, and Kylo killing Han. I may not like how it's done and such. But I don't think it's aggressively poorly written character wise.

I may not have been that interested in the movies after TFA, but this doesn't mean I think Rian didn't have options other than what he did.

 

Agreed. Broken and sad Luke would have been more likable and sympathetic than surly/crazy grumpy cat Luke.

 

Probably for the same reason that JJ's madcap entry for Episode 9 is blamed on Rian Johnson, when he set up a perfectly decent premise himself.

 

Agreed... I’m not sure why people even argue this. For example, there was about a week between the allied troops moving on Berlin, Hitler committing suicide and the Germans surrendering.

 

At least with that, I think JJ's choices were more coming off the middle entry, which I think is more inconsistent to course correct from and be consistent with, from there, than what I think Rian.

 

JJ set up a Luke who was a flawed teacher, failed at his task of training Ben, and is now at some secret location to get away from it all.

Rian is the one who decided that Luke tried to murder his nephew. Anyone who says Rian had no choice but to write that Luke tried to kill a family member in their sleep is simply incorrect.

 

He didn’t try to. The whole point of that plot was that Luke simply thought about it for a split second and by the time the thought passed it was too late.

 

He didn't just think about it. He pulled out a weapon, and I think readied it. Maybe try is a harder term, but I think was going to. And, even that, I think didn't have to equal all of what was done around it.

 

Rian decided that Luke would walk into Ben's room, without Ben knowing it, and turn his lightsaber on, while thinking about killing him. Regardless of semantics, JJ had nothing to do with that decision.

The dialogue says one thing, but the actual movie shows something different. It's almost like Rian Johnson isn't that good of a filmmaker.

 

It isn’t semantics, it is a crucial part of The Last Jedi’s story. The only time Luke “tries” to kill him is when Kylo is relating the events from his perspective, naturally.

 

But if this was so, why wasn't there a massive uprising after ANH?
The Senate was disbanded and the Empire used the DS to blow up a peaceful planet, killing billions.
All to send the message "Do as you are told or we'll destroy you!"
But then the DS is taken out not long after.

The people in the galaxy would see this as a sign that the Empire is clearly evil and backwards.
Yet the rebellion does not spread.

Except for the tiny detail that Germany had suffered massive losses prior to that. How much was left of their army, navy or air-force?
They had lost the war, that was clear long before that. Hitler just refused to accept reality.

If Hitler had been killed in 1941, do you think Germany would have collapsed in about a week?

How much of the Empire's forces were lost at Endor?
Some EU gives a figure of 25 000 ISDs. How many were lost on Endor, say 50?
So the empire would still have a massive fleet and army.

Plus, as was said in ANH, with the senate gone, the regional governors would now have direct control over their territories.
They are all still there.
With Palpatine dead, why would some of them not try to carve out their own little kingdoms for themselves, using the forces that they have?

So the idea that the empire does not fall in a week and instead is still there in some form makes sense.
A lot of the 90's EU had the Imperial remnant as far as I know.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I thought the rebellion was growing after ANH? Looked a lot more impressive even on Hoth. I mean, their leaders are no longer hiding under 'diplomatic missions' and are outright fighting the Empire. And then by ROTJ, there seemed to be even more alliances. Almost a real fleet.

Regardless, the Empire is still the government, and in control, and they're 'striking back'. They're clamping down and making it harder on everyone.

I think after ROTJ, you'd have two scenarios play out. 1: Some of the Imperial controlled worlds would have surrendered immediately. You'd get uprisings, etc. You see this happen on Coruscant, the Imperial capitol no less. 2: Some/Many of the regionally controlled Governors would have remained in power, or tried to retain their power. But without the top-heavy Imperial support, continued supplies and soldiers, and the imposed fear, by the Emperor himself, the system wouldn't be as strong as it once was.

And that's why I like Lucas' idea that in a POST OT, you'd get a power vacuum comprised of old Moffs, regional governors, gangs, and former stormtroopers being hired by the highest bidder. It would take decades for the NR to carve out connected regions of the Galaxy, but it would happen system by system. And even with an Imperial Remnant, still running some systems, or running away and hiding for 30 years, I don't see how it would play out like the ST we got. An Imperial Remnant that isn't anything like a Remnant at all, is stronger than the Empire once was, and running around the galaxy like they own the place, all while the NR just ignores them and then poof, they're gone.

 

Without wanting to reduce the complexities of warfare/conflict to a sentence, there are numerous historical examples which revolve around key events/battles bringing about the end of a war or a nations/states dominance. Everything from Pompey’s defeat in Greece, which effectively ended Ceasar’s Civil War, Harold’s defeat at Hastings in 1066, which ushered in the Norman period, to the example of Germany’s surrender in WWII. Therefore, history provides enough context for the audience to assume that George Lucas’ intention (ROTJ), is that Palpatine’s death effectively spells the end of the Galactic Civil War. And not forgetting that the Battle of Endor was also the cumulation of 3 films, which ends with the Rebel Alliances biggest premptive strike against the Empire. I certainly think it was Lucas’ intention so show that ROTJ was the end of the Galactic Civil War... as far as the films were concerned that is.

That this particular conflict can be extended /stretched out to tell new stories about how the Rebels still had pockets of imperial resistance to defeat, isn’t the issue IMO. It’s that circa 30 years later, the First Order are portrayed as effectively being the Empire, with uber tech and the biggest super weapon ever... and behind that is Palpatine with the biggest fleet ever emassed, each ship having the power of the Death Star.

 

Any historical comparison is flawed in that with SW, we are dealing with a whole galaxy.
So an imperial Moff might have 50 systems under his control, say 20 million soldiers and 2000 ISD.
Why would that person just instantly give up right after Palpatines death?

The only way that would happen is if Palpatine had cast "Mindcontrol" on the whole galaxy and so when he died, everyone woke up.
Some EU has a bit like this when, at Endor, Palpatine has some "Battle trance" going, that makes all the imperials fight better and when he dies, they all loose focus.

Palpatine was the leader but there would have been a government on Coruscant. We saw two people with him on the DS2 but there would still be people left behind and a command structure.

Lucas was tired of SW with RotJ and wanted to tie up everything so he made RotJ with a happy ending.
Originally there were no scenes of celebration on other planets, just the rebels on Endro.
Sort of like in ANH, where there is a medal ceremony at the end of the film.

As for the FO, they change radically how powerful they are.
In TFA, the sense I got was more of a terrorist organisation. They had some systems and some ships but were clearly less powerful than the NR. Hence why they needed SKB. That was their big "I win" weapon.
The TLJ changed them into being able to conquer all the major systems in the galaxy in weeks and now they are way more powerful than before and even stronger than the GE.
Then RoS has the DS ISDs. Which is even more levels of silly.

The FO, as they were in TFA, mostly worked. That some imperial hardliners fled to the outer edges of the galaxy and built up their forces. That I can buy.
SKB should not have been in TFA, or if it was, showed at the end, leaving the audience to go "Oh my god, what is that?"
TLJ made them way too powerful and also made the rest of the galaxy into total cowards and the other systems of the NR had apparently no ships or military.
RoS then didn't help situation but TLJ had already damaged it beyond repair.

ESB does not really show a stronger rebellion. In fact it says that it is a dark time for them.
They are forced to hide on a very inhospitable planet and seemingly have no plans on how to continue their struggle.
The first draft had more of the political situation. There were liens about how over 1000 systems had rebelled and Han was leaving, not to pay off Jabba but to talked with his foster father, who had a big transport guild.

ANH sets up a situation were the loss of the DS would be a big loss to the Empire.
But ESB sort of pushes the reset button and the Empire is no worse off but the rebels are.

But as I said above, we are dealing with a whole galaxy. A Moff that has dozens of systems under his control isn't really in need of supplies or soldiers. He has more than enough to make himself the ruler.

The loss of the DS2 and Palpatine would be a major loss yes. And there would likely be infighting among the rest of the imperial worlds and people lookign out for themselves.
And yes it would take a long time for the NR to deal with all that.
So the war would not be over after RotJ. What would be left is a long series of mop-up, building up somethign new and trying to deal with imperial left overs.
As I said, Lucas wanted to tie everything up so didn't want to deal with the messy details and what would be involved in rebuilding the republic and he did nto have to. He wanted a happy ending and so made one.

As for the FO, see above.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Yes, the Rebels are under attack and being chased, it's still a dark time for them, and they need to find whatever hiding grounds they can. But visually and thematically they have fully armed bases now, there's more of them, and by the end of it, there's mention of the alliances getting ready for their next step. Lando shows that even 'neutral' systems who have worked for the Empire are finding out that they don't want to any more the hard way. So there's a growing Rebellion all throughout the OT, even when our immediate heroes have set backs and need to hide.

And unlike the ST, there are actual stakes and consequences of these battles. When the Rebellion blows up the DS, the Empire comes right back because they are still the government. They still dominate the galaxy at this time. Vader is alive. The Emperor is out there somewhere. That makes total logical sense. It's not because it's reseting things. The ST tries to mimic this by having the FO chase the Resistance, after the Resistance blows up SKB. The FO doesn't even skip a beat. The very next day, they're chasing down Republic citizens like they're criminals. However, even with the loss of the NR capitol words, the NR is still the major ruling government. Because the NR doesn't have a single serving Emperor at the top of things. That's not how Republics work. The FO is the true criminal military organization but the movies don't really express this. They are not even a government. They're just a floating military. Yet, they are shown to now dominate the galaxy in every way.

Yes. A ruler of his local systems. But without the top-heavy, top-down Empire at his backing, and that power-structure, he's loses his long term protection, resources and supplies. He's essentially now on his own, or whatever small alliances he makes for himself and his direct system. I'm sure some of them would last for decades, probably even somewhat 'peacefully', but even their time will be up someday. I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with here.

No. The Empire is effectively done soon after ROTJ, with the loss of the Emperor and whatever galactic control the Imperials have after the destruction of the DS. That's because even with regional governors with direct control, the Empire is the Emperor. Whatever forms of rule the Regional Moffs take, it's not an Empire anymore. You can't even say they're remnants, if they're all out for themselves. The Civil War ends with ROTJ, or soon after. Whatever wars and battles take place thereafter to go after the Moffs, the gangs, the whatever, it's a different beast. You're no longer dealing with a Rebellion vs an Empire. You're dealing with a New Republic going after hundreds of individual war criminals and gangs, and whatever else emerges in the power vacuum. I'm not saying there would be peace, I'm not even saying there would be uniformity, but the Empire, as a galactic form of government, is for all intents and purposes...done.

And we see that in shows like Mando. The NR is chasing down the remaining illegal Imperials and treating them as war criminals. And I bet there are some Moffs out there who are retaining control of their own little kingdom. But it's not a galactic war anymore.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

As others have stated, the Rebellion did grow. They have an impressive fleet by the time of ROTJ.

 

Okay dokey then.

 

The main issue I have with TLJ as opposed to TFA and TROS is that everyone (whether they liked the films or not) knows exactly what JJ was trying to get across. When it comes to TLJ, even the people who loved it have come to contradictory conclusions about what RJ was trying to get across with the various ideas, set pieces, and character choices he threw at the wall.

So how can you really blame TROS for not following setups from TLJ when even the fans who loved TLJ can't agree on what was being setup in the first place?

I never heard people coming to completely contradictory explanations for what TFA was setting up. It just seems like RJ just wanted to do whatever he hadn't heard anyone state on the internet. Which explains that famous tweet about Snoke theories sucking.

 

It’s flawed in that it’s a fictional universe... and as such it’s not ‘real’. However, what’s depicted is analogous enough to determine Lucas’ intentions i.e. the battle of Endor was the fall of the Empire

We’re talking space fantasy... so the people left behind could have sprouted wings and flown away. But, if we want to apply some logic to it based on ‘real’ world examples, then it’s probable (if we are to assume that the Empire could still function after ROTJ), that the imperial remnants would turn inwards on itself as factions arose to seize Palpatine’s thrown.

In both the original and SE versions, there’s still a palpable sense of victory and closure. Lucas is depicting the fall of the Empire, not just a battle won.

I don’t know.... The First Order don’t seem like a terrorist organisation to me. Sure, they don’t rule the galaxy in TFA, but they certainly outmatch the New Republic in terms of fire power... and Hux’s speech on SKB seems more reminiscent of Nuremberg rallies than Bin Laden sending a message to the world from inside a cave.

 

The FO in the ST are not a terrorist organization. The are radical fanatics, and the're criminals, but it's not a simple terrorist group. The closest analog to our world would be North Korea, who look up to a Supreme Leader, and whom constantly tries to build a nuclear bomb, and is always running testing missions in the Sea of Japan to 'show off their might', who are constantly threatening to take down the US, all while most of their cities and citizens have no power, food, etc.

That's really close to the FO. But that's not the FO either. The FO run around the galaxy like they own the place. There's nothing stopping them. Nothing about them is sneaky. They have unlimited resources and capabilities. They show up on Jakku, blow away everything, and then they're off to the next planet to destroy more crap. And then they blow up the NR in one shot.

And the NR doesn't seem to give a damn about them. The US and the rest of the world keep a close eye on all things North Korea. And when the NR is destroyed, nothing changes. And when the Resistance blows up the very special planet destroying weapon, nothing changes. The FO is still just as powerful, just as quick, and essentially chases down the Resistance the next day.

It's just ... nonsense. Nothing about it really makes sense.

 

That’s the thing isn’t it? Because of the lack of real context, the First Order are just presented as a proxy Empire. It would have been a little more believable, and would have benefited the plot, if the First Order were portrayed as being a small tinpot dictatorship, but were in a race with our heroes to find the ancient Starkiller Base or Star Forge etc. At least that would have given the story some direction/momentum, and would have explained how the FO got take take over the galaxy (or be the dominant force).

 

In ANH, the rebels have one base, in ESB they still have just the one base.
"More of them", I don't think ESB shows that. There seemed to be about as many people in the various bases in ANH and ESB respectively.
How armed the base was in ANH is unclear as there was no ground assault nor any aerial attack.

As for Lando, he says that their operation was too small for the Empire to really bother with them.
He made a deal with Vader and when Vader kept altering the deal, Lando resisted.
ESB does not indicate that Lando/Bespin had been under the control of the Empire.

But if you want an example of "normal" people resenting the Empire, take Luke in ANH. He hates it.
And ANH establishes that the rebellion keeps gaining support in the senate.

Yes there is a reset. ANH crawl says that the stolen plans could "restore freedom to the galaxy". That didn't happen.
ANH also makes it clear that the fleet alone can not keep control.
Prior to ANH what kept the Empire together was the Senate. That was how the Emperor maintained control. Then the senate is dissolved, the regional governors were given direct control and the key to all this was the DS. The fear that would make sure that no system dares defy the emperor.
But then the DS was destroyed. So now the senate is dissolved but the big fear weapon is also gone.
This should have meant major problems for the empire. Not that it would vanish in an instant but they would have a lot more uprisings to deal with.

The ST as a whole makes a mess of the FO. The loss of SKB matters not at all. It does not inspire anyone in the galaxy but Luke's little show does. The FO is magically 1000's times stronger in TLJ than in TFA.
The NR apparently was just one system or they had ALL their ships in one system. Neither of which makes much sense.
So as I said, in TFA the FO somewhat works, TLJ messes it up.

Again a regional Moff that controls say 200 systems does not really need supplies or resources, he has 100's of planets. If he also has say 2000 ISD and 20 million soldiers, he would be a though nut to crack.
The Moffs did not rule one system or planet, they controlled lots of systems/planets.

My disagreement is with the idea that there would not be more fighting after RotJ, that there still would not be war. That the NR instantly reformed and all the imperials vanished into thin air.

A Moff with 200 systems under his control is not a "gang". He would be a very powerful and formidable foe.
Say that the NR, that has 2000 systems, goes after this Moff, that controls 200 systems. If the NR wants to go after him with armed forces that is a war. And a galactic war since it includes multiple systems.
And it would be a bigger war than the Rebels vs the Empire because the Rebels were never that strong.
The rebels, at least as the OT shows, do not go after whole planets and try to conquer them.
They do not have the numbers to do that.

But a NR that is trying to build itself up vs one or more imperial regional governors has the potential for a much bigger war, and much more costly one at that.

And even if we leave the NR out of it. What about the various Moffs trying to seize control or carve out their own kingdoms? That would likely also mean a lot of fighting and another civil war. This time among the various imperials that are left.

About the FO.

IN TFA, Jakku was a dump of a planet that it seemed no one cared much about. So that the FO can show up there and kill everyone in a small camp is not very impressive.
At Maz's castle, the FO runs away when the Resistance gets there.

And no, the NR does care. The crawls says that they support the Resistance in their fight with the FO.
So what seems to be the case is that the NR, for unexplained reasons, do not want an open war with the FO. But instead they support the Resistance under the table and have it fight for them.

Not unlike how the US supported various groups that opposed the USSR during the cold war.
So a fight through proxy.

So the NR did see the FO as a threat but not one that they could or wanted to fight openly. They likely did not know about SKB.

Yes TLJ makes a mess of things, as I've said. The FO now has a fleet and military capable of conquering all the major systems of the galaxy in weeks. Which is insanely fast and would mean that they have a fleet/army that puts the GE to shame.
That the NR did not know about SKB is fine, that they would not be aware that the FO is this powerful makes them all into morons.
But TLJ has an idiot plot so that is par for the course.

@Darth PJ,

What does TFA tell us about the FO. they kidnap children to brainwash them into becoming their soldiers. Not unlike what some terrorist organizations do.
If we leave SKB aside, then the FO is not as strong as the NR. The fleet the NR has is stronger than the FO.

@FightoftheForgotten,

In RotJ yes, but I was talking about ESB.
Three years have passed and no sign that the Empire is loosing control or that the rebellion is growing.

You said;

Would not the citizens of the galaxy realize how "backwards" things had gotten after ANH?
The senate was dissolved, the DS blew up a planet and killed billions most likely.
And then said DS was destroyed.
Would this not cause people to think "Hmm.. the Empire seems not very nice."

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Making The First Order analogous with a terrorist organisation, just because they kidnap kids to swell their ranks, is a rather broad and generous capture all to liken it to 'terrorism' (IMO). The film does't ever try to establish what their (The First Order) political, religious and ideological beliefs are... which is usually a prime concern of terrorist organisations. Hux's speech on SKB doesn't set this out... rather it's a generic 'we're the bad guys dressed as Nazis' kind of thing. If the First Order had been a small band of Sith cultists, whom wanted to spread their religion through fear and terror, and whom wanted to see the resurgence/second coming of Palpatine, then I'd agree with you. But the First Order aren't that... and they aren't really about anything are they?

I don't really see anything in TFA that presents the First Order as being inferior, both technological and in terms of numbers, than the New Republic? And given that we never even see any New Republic soldiers or military in TFA (well none that I can recall), means that we can quite easily make a case for the First Order being far more militarised, and therefore stronger, than the New Republic i.e. they are not a terrorist organisation but an advanced and powerful state/entity in their own right.