ST J.J. Abrams (Director Of TFA & TROS) Discussion Thread—Now Finally Discussing: JJ Abrams

Just wanted to throw my $.02 into this- what I find ironic and depressing is that all of us here have put 1000x more thought into the ST than the people who actually wrote it. Nothing can convince me JJ put more than 30seconds worth of effort in writing the FO. 'They`re the Empire but totally different. The troopers helmets have a swoop and their Death Star is size of a planet instead of a moon. Totally different!'

Anyone here an Aqua Teen Hungerforce fan? The ST (especially TFA) reminds me of the Plutonians' 'Far-gate', its not the same cuz it has a mohawk and wheelchair.

Edit- my depression isn't because of the discussions going on, its that imo LFL really thought they could slap together a movie haphazardly, throw in x-wings and TIE fighters and everyone will love it and not think too deep about logic behind the story. Everyone here has posted better more logical ideas for the ST than JJ could dream of.

 

To be honest... I'm sure Abrams put the budgeted hours into developing TFA/TROS... I'm just not sure that his efforts were in the right place. If your driver is to make the film/films as 'popular' and as inoffesnive as they can possibly be, then by default I think it naturally limits focus.

 

"It is a Far-gate. F. Goes far get it? Do you not see the mohawk and wheelchair!? It's nothing like that movie i've never seen or the syndicated tv show based on the movie! We're not getting sued!"



(In case no one understood that reference)

 

The other problem is that Lucas synthesized so many things into Star Wars but JJ basically just reinterpreted SW for a "modern" audience, without thinking through why it worked the way it did. His pal Alex Kurtzman who stayed with Trek is the same way. Roddenberry and his successors synthesized a lot into Trek but Kurtzman can only remake Trek with a "modern" spin. It's derivative.

 

I think Kasdan's influence in having restraint and saying less (per Abrams) likely had an influence in minimizing the backstory for TFA. I understand the need to keep the story moving, but a wealth of offscreen preceding conflict seems to be one of the film's fundamental issues.

 

People were saying the Golden Globes were fixed? JJ for SCREENPLAY?

 

Um considering how Terrio said he had never rewritten a movie that much...shouldn’t he be getting the honor?

 

They both are so I agree!

 

The biggest issue with the ST is it doesn't grow naturally from ROTJ. The ST is basically a sequel trilogy to the events that happened between 6 and 7 instead of the preceding trilogy. And, oddly enough, the stuff that happens between 6 and 7 seems more interesting than the story we got.

Have you ever seen MULTIPLICITY with Michael Keaton? It's a movie about cloning and at one point they clone a clone and it comes out all wonky. That's current STAR TREK and STAR WARS.

Hollywood realized that they can make even more money if they don't have to put any effort into the writing process. So they're trying to convince consumers (let's stop pretending this junk is art) that stuff like TROS is on the high end of screenplay writing. They're selling low grade products and patting themselves on the back for it.

 

The film definitely suffers from to little information.

 

You are dead right. Star Wars was a very postmodern take on all of Lucas' influences... and that's on show throughout both the OT and PT. It seems to me that Abrams just doesn't have that knowledge/appreciation to draw upon (which I think is common in most mainstream Hollywood filmmakers these days), and it's why Abrams reference points seems to be limited to SW and Spielberg. And when SW ends up referencing itself, cinematically it hits a brick wall (IMO).

 

I thought the whole world building (and visual details) in the ST was very inferior. I mean look at the visual "eye candy" of the PT. I mean even the OT (aside from the upgrades of the SE) had more creative looking world building than the ST in regards to environments.

 

Well deserved.

 

Can’t tell if serious.

 

The hack JJ Abrams stays winning.

 

I think it is deserved, i think it's a well made movie and nice ending for the trilogy, just not the saga. Daisy and Adam great as Kylo and Rey.

 

To try and sum up my argument about TFA and the strength of the NR vs the FO.

Scenario A. the NR has about 500 dedicated warships plus whatever local defense forces the various systems has. The FO has about 200 dedicated warships.
The NR looks at the FO and sees that if it came to an all out war, they can beat the FO. But it would be costly plus they don't have public support to start a war.
But they recognize the FO as a growing threat to they support the Resistance, which has about 30 ships of varying size plus fighters. The goal here is to harass the FO and make life difficult for them.
The Resistance alone can't wipe out the FO. But it is a threat.

The FO meanwhile knows that in the event of an all-out war, they would most likely loose. Not only because they have fewer ships but that the NR has a much larger production base and given time, will be able to produce ships and soldiers faster than the FO.
So they need an ace in the hole, enter SKB. With it they can take out the NR central system and make the rest of the galaxy submit in the face of this terrible weapon.

Scenario B: the NR has about 500 warships but the local systems have nothing. The FO has about 20 000 ships.
The NR is aware of how strong the FO is but sees no need to arm up and instead just funds the Resistance, who has about 30 ships to not only harass the FO but also protect the borders of the NR as they are totally undefended.
The FO on the other hand knows that they can crush the NR with ease with just their fleet but decides to build SKB because, "Hey, all evil empires needs a super weapon."

Which of these do you think is the most stupid?

1. the TF has a seat in the Senate.
2. Tatooine was the only planet close to Naboo that they could reach that was not controlled by the TF.
So they are a regional power.

I saw them as seeing the Empire, the DS, the killing as a means to an end. Order. That was what they wanted and if it took horrible means to do it, then so be it. They didn't care. They were cold, unfeeling.
Some in the FO seemed a bit different, that what they did was a calling, a crusade. Kylo certainly seemed like that.
Kylo wanted to be like Vader but he wasn't.
Hux was not Tarkin.

First, BOTH Hux and C3PO mentions the NR fleet and how it was protection for the Resistance. Hux is a part of the FO and he would know of their capabilities. So it is established.
Second, you rather ignore a key part, the FO is only able to do what they did because SKB.
Remove that from TFA, could the FO destroy the NR so quickly anyway?
I don't think so.
SKB was the key to the FO winning.

And the NR clearly did not know about SKB. So the NR being destroyed by a weapon they had no idea even existed, much less that the FO had it. That works.
That they knew that FO outgunned them 40 to 1 and still did nothing, that is totally stupid.

Or third option, Poe said he wanted to fly one of the FO TIE's so he was aware of it and was impressed enough with what he had seen that he wanted to try it. So Poe can recognize and even admire ships or fighters even those belonging to the enemy. He isn't one to go "All FO stuff is crap."
Plus we have no idea how common the ship Kylo and Hux has in TFA.
If the FO has maybe only five of those big ships and the rest is smaller, then Poe knows of them but hasn't seen one from the inside. And again, he can admire the weapons of the enemy.

I don't, see above.

First I was talking about the US and how they fought proxy wars rather than attack themselves as WW3 was a very real threat.
Second, again SKB. The FO is only able to do what they do because of SKB. Remove that and as far as TFA goes, the FO is much less strong. Yes TLJ makes them super powerful, the GE cubed.
But to me, TFA does not.

Take the last scene with Hux and Snoke in TFA.

To me this seemed that the loss of SKB was significant, a big blow.
Snoke only talks about Kylo but that is consistent as he has mostly been interested in Kylo and things around him. Rey, Han, the awakening in the Force.
He seemed to leave much of the regular stuff, like the NR to Hux.

How is it implied? Unless it is established that the NR rules the ENTIRE galaxy, then there would be systems that is outside of their control. The Old Republic did not rule the whole galaxy. A fair bit was outside it.

The FO is a threat, that is why the NR funds the Resistance to fight it. That only makes sense if the Resistance could be any kind of threat. If the FO is as strong as TLJ makes them, then the Resistance is no threat.

Jakku seemed to be a dump that no one cared about. Maz castle was one small location.
Neither of them seemed to be part of the NR, At least I am not aware of any dialogue that says that.
So based on TFA, the FO had not directly attacked the NR until they used SKB.

Or again third option, the NR had a rough idea of the FO regular military and knew that while it could do damage, it was nowhere near enough to take over the galaxy or utterly wipe out the NR.
What they were unaware of was SKB.
There, no need for stupidity.

Also, look at Germany prior to WW2. It was arming up. France had the stronger military and could have attacked Germany when they were just beginning to build up their army. They didn't.
When Germany begun to get really strong, what did France and England do? Try to appease Hitler.
"Peace for our time"?
Not everyone agree to that. Churchill was against it. But it did happen.

Or take Syria and Iraq, how many thought that ISIS could take over so much territory so quickly?

Again, several people talk about the NR fleet, both with the good guys and the bad guys.
It wasn't done very well, TFA could have used a lot more world building.
But there was some and it mostly worked ok, not great.
What didn't work was when TLJ made the FO 1000 times stronger and the loss of SKB had zero impact.

I've said it before, SKB should have been saved for the sequel and TFA had a smaller threat. Then next episode has a war but then FO unveils SKB and that totally changes things.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

You put forward the notion that The First Order were portrayed as ‘terrorists’ in TFA, and cited the fact that they were not in control of the galaxy (unlike the Empire), to bolster that claim. I put forward the counter that the antagonists in TPM, the Trade Federation, were not in control of the galaxy (unlike the Empire), but they were not perceived, or alluded to, as being ‘terrorists’. So I’m still struggling to understand the logic of the arbitrary criteria you put forward... especially as it’s not consistent with the other films. Are you trying to argue that The First Order, because they don’t have a seat in the New Republic senate, automatically makes them terrorists? I mean, we don’t even know from the films if the First Order did, or ever had, a seat in the New Republic senate. Those kind of details aren’t disclosed... which is, IMO, half the problem I.e. the general lack of context.

I think that’s an interpretation, but I’m not sure that’s actually evident in the film/films themselves.

Can you quote the specific dialogue where Hux states that the First Order are inferior to the New Republic? I certainly can’t remember that dialogue, but obviously I may be mistaken...

So your take from that scene in the hangar when Poe is looking around, is that he’s actually ‘admiring’ the First Order’s weaponry? That’s a very strange message to be telling the audience... but even then, if Poe is admiring it, it implies a certain modicum of surprise... ergo, the New Republic/Resistance have underestimated the First Order.

A proxy war is neither explicitly stated or alluded to in TFA... other than we know that Leia has a modicum of support from New Republic. But what that support is, is never specified. It could be moral support, political support or simply some access to ships. But unless Leia is a puppet, a figurehead, (which I don’t believe she is) it’s natural to deduce that the resistance were a breakaway movement, its objectives at odds with the New Republic’s inaction regarding the First Order. And that isn’t really a proxy war.

But the point remains. The US have directly intervened in situations where there’s a clear and present threat... and as of today, the US has not been destroyed by its enemies. The New Republic were obliterated. They don’t seem to have been fighting any wars, proxy or otherwise, because they were either blind to the the First Orders intention, or that they didn’t want to get pulled into a war where the outcome was not a certainty. Again, it’s all rather opaque... not because that reflects the reality of politics/warfare, but that it reflects the lack of context and detail put forward by the film itself.

With all respect, that’s a bit like saying ‘well the US were only able to come out of WWII well because they dropped the automatic bomb on Japan’. That the First Order were able to obliterate their enemy is pretty much the desired objective of aggressive warfare.

Was it though? So what do you think Abrams envisaged for Ep VIII in his head? A First Order on the ropes, defeated and on the run? I don’t think so... I expect Abrams would have pulled a TESB and shown a bigger First Order... after all Snoke is still alive and kicking... and there’s nothing in TFA that suggests Snoke is hiding out in a cave etc. Logic would dictate that the supreme leader would be surrounded be surrounded by his military might... even if SKB was their only superweapon.

The implication is that the New Republic run things... and there certainly isn’t anything in TFA that states Jakuu and Tandoka are outside of the New Republic.

Why on Earth would the New Republic fund the resistance if they feel they are under threat from the New Order and if they have a sizeable military themselves? What would even be the point of having and paying for a military? That’s all shades of nonsensical.

And neither is there dialogue to suggest those worlds are not under the jurisdiction of the New Republic. That the resistance is engaged in fighting the First Order suggests that the villains are doing something does it not??? And does the opening crawl not state that Leia needs Luke’s help in restoring peace and justice TO THE GALAXY??? So if not the First Order, whom is it that’s taken peace and justice away from the galaxy? Answers on a postcard please...

As already mentioned, that the New Republic gets annihilated suggests a complete failure of its defence policy. It’s kind of implicit. If they can’t recognise that this cash rich, fascist military regime, that has powerful darkside users in their highest ranks, isn’t dangerous, they are pretty stupid. Did they learn nothing from the fall of the Republic??? I guess not.

The political backdrop to the onset of WWII was very complex. In comparison, the ST provides no context, political or otherwise, to make a comparison worthy of exploring. It’s worth noting that the French were in no position to take on the Nazi’s alone... and remember that prior to WWII, Germany had been accepted into the League of Nations (the first worldwide intergovernmental body)... so it wasn’t as if France could just declare war on them, even if they wanted to. You are also not taking into account the intra political dynamics. Britain opposing Hitler was not a given... It was Britain who declared war on the Germany... not the other way around. Germany did not want to wage a war with Britain... especially as there were many Nazi sympathisers within the British political system and within the monarchy itself. So it’s absolutely not the same as what’s presented in the ST.

ISIS did not invade Europe or the US. Neither have they dropped a nuclear weapon on Europe or the US. So whilst I understand what your saying, I don’t see the comparison between ISIS and The First Order.[/QUOTE]

 

The book Disney Wars by James B. Stewart has a lot of information on Bob Iger’s relationship with JJ Abrams. Michael Eisner and Iger despised Alias and wanted nothing to do with Lost. Iger felt that Lost was just another confusing waste of time like Twin Peaks and ordered ABC executive Lloyd Braun to kill the project immediately and have Abrams thrown off the lot. Braun refused. Iger accused Braun of coddling Abrams and fired him. Lost became a gigantic hit but Eisner and Iger still thought the show sucked just like Alias.

 

Then why in the world did they hire him for SW? I guess it was that horrific "reboot" of Star Trek and whatever "magic" he was supposed to have done with Mission: Impossible whatevernumberhedirected. Their initial instincts were correct.

 

I've just realised it's April Fool's Day.

 

Well good for you this was no from today.