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Fanclub Jacen Solo Fan Club: Forever in the Light

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by -Vergere-, Oct 14, 2001.

  1. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2012
    Kinda what I was getting at! Three or four generations down the line, they might not want to powershare anymore.
    I'm still stuck with where to take it...I've got a pretty solid start, but it kinda fizzles after that!
     
  2. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The Solo-Fel war of succession...

    Ah well I hope to see it out soon!
     
  3. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 11, 2016
    So this is a thing that I´ve been thinking about before and recently returned to think about.

    Given what was done to Jacen as a character post NJO, do you guys feel it might have been better if Jacen had died the death originally envisioned for him: Instead of Anakin in SbS?

    Of course this would remove both Traitor(though we might get something similiar with Anakin instead) and Jacen´s arguably best moment at the end of TUF. But also save him from being rushed into a villian and dying unredeemed for the sake of apparently prequel nostalgia and the desiers of some authors and fans who apparently really hated him.
    So would leaving some of the best stuff he did, be worth sparing him from what was at the very least a controversial plotline in the post NJO EU.

    Would it been better for Jacen to die a hero rather than live long enough to see himself become the villian?

    Also on a sidenote, do you think if they had decided to kill Jacen in SbS he might have actually had a one night stand with Tenel Ka either in that book or shortly before thus still giving us an Allana character?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  4. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Problem is Jacen dying in SBS basically is a discrediting of the character.

    "Peace and understanding are dumb, the way you handle bad guys is a lightsaber". In short it would have sent the message of discrediting philosophical questioning and compassion in favor of martial power and skill.

    I doubt they would have given Jacen any such thing if they had intended to kill him.
     
  5. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 11, 2016
    Isn´t that the lesson LotF teaches anyway? And to a lesser extend the OT as well.
     
  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The lesson of LOTF seems to be, well I honestly can't recall any themes.

    Well I suppose the main theme of LOTF can't be, you can't redeem someone who does evil because they consider it righteous or necessary. Jacen is irredeemable because he doesn't ever believe what he does is wrong. He convinces himself he is on the right path, and to quote my added signature line "And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just."-passage in Romans.

    Jacen fully believes in doing evil so that good may come, and that makes him only fit for death. There if LOTF has a theme I just figured it out.

    The lesson of the OT is more, "there is goodness to search for, and searching for it is the right thing to do, even underneath the most vile creature"(well except Palpatine).
     
  7. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 11, 2016
    FOTJ the compliments this with. "Vestara fully believes in doing evil so that good may come TO HER, and that makes her fit for Ben´s bed."
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  8. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    In fairness, I would disagree.

    Vestara shows at the end of Ascension she isn't and probably never will be a Jedi. She will always put her life and the lives of those she deems of value to her(Ben) over strangers. More "a fundamentally selfish person may not be the devil incarnate, but that means they will never become truly good".
     
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  9. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 11, 2016
    I don´t really think that an evil person careing for an extremly small elite cyrcle of friends, or just one person in Vestara´s case, really makes them good. Jacen at the very least clearly still cared for Allana and probably even Jaina to some extend.
     
  10. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    That's my point. Vestara isn't good. She won't sacrifice herself for anyone. She is a fundamentally selfish person.

    Jacen isn't. Jacen even as Caedus fundamentally does what he does for the sake of someone else.
     
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012


    As Galaxy of Intrigue puts it

    THE GALACTIC ALLIANCE GUARD


    NOTABLE MEMBERS

    Jacen Solo (Darth Caedus)
    As a young man, Jacen Solo is a gentle Jedi whose empathy for all living things causes him to develop a number of Force skills related to animals and nature. However, torture at the hands of the Yuuzhan Vong and the death of his younger brother Anakin darkens and stunts Jacen's spirit. He becomes easy prey for the dark side, and when he gets a taste of real power as the head of the GAG, it claims him.


    Jacen is an officer who leads from the front. He never asks his agents to perform tasks that he himself is not willing to do, and he personally conducts some of the most brutal raids, most vicious interrogations, and bloodiest assassinations. Jacen even attempts to assassinate his own parents when he comes to the conclusion that they are plotting against both him and the Galactic Alliance - Han Solo is a Corellian, after all.

    Despite his dark and violent turn, Jacen's heart remains committed to the same goal he has followed since childhood: bringing peace and harmony to those around him. But, twisted as he is by the dark side, he intends to force that peace and harmony on the galaxy on his terms.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
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  12. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The main difference between Jacen and Vestara is that Jacen cares about other people, even those he doesn't know. Vestara doesn't care about anyone but herself and maybe a few close family members and then Ben.
     
  13. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 11, 2016
    And yet Ves is played as a much better person both IU and OU.
     
  14. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    So just as a passing thought, if the EU had been adapted to the big and or small screen(and faithfully I mean), how do you the general audience would have viewed Jacen?

    I think he would have been an equally controversial character, even with a larger audience than the niche EU one, probably a lot of haters but devoted fans as well.

    Jacen I think, represents an interesting deviation from the standard heroic archetype. He's a "navel gazer", a "bleeding heart", and a "philosopher". That isn't the sort of protagonist people usually expect in science fiction/science fantasy/space opera/myth.

    And that is one of the reasons, why as a character he deserves better exposure. Because he isn't Luke or Han, he isn't a swashbuckler. He makes jokes-but not quips, but teenage bad jokes.

    His intense empathy, desire to learn, and love of life make him very endearing-and I think he could become enduringly alluring to people who see themselves in him.
     
  15. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 11, 2016
    Thing is I doubt Jacen can work in the medium of film where we don´t have his thoughts. He would come of as little more than comedic relief in YJK, where I would also guess they might rank his akwardness around Tenel Ka up even more. And then come of like Kylo in NJO and beyond, a character with basically never really explained motives or thoughts. Also I guess many people would call Jacen "whiny".

    Think a big part of the problem though would be Jaina, she is basically a female Han with the force, thus a character most casuals would love. Just think back to when Ridley was cast, everyone guessed she would be Han and Leia´s daughter and be like Jaina, even people who apparently never heard of the original. I think being contrsted with her would make Jacen stick out even more. Also there are of course Anakin and Ben, both essentially Luke clones(Ben even more than Anakin) who are also opposed to Jacen which wouldn´t win him any favors.

    And lastly of course its probably hard for many people to be invested into a character when a quick search after the first trailer immidietly tells you he will become a villian, kill several beloved characters and then die unredeemed.

    Think the only people who might like him would be shippers, kind of how Kylo is beloved by many mainly because of Reylo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  16. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Jaina actually isn't Han though? Han in the old EU does have an alleged bastard daughter who basically imitates him in every conceivable way. She's more a combination of Han's skills, Mara's snark, and her own somewhat unappealing personality.

    I've heard it said before, and I agree Jaina can be somewhat mean spirited and she is not a particularly empathetic person, in fact she can be tone deaf and callous. Witness her telling Vestara "I killed my own brother" after she cut her father in two.

    That's just such an awful thing to say-she meant well, but I don't think Vestara took it well.

    And that goes with Jaina having a see the world down the barrel of a blaster rifle mentality.

    Now some people will like that, but honestly if Jaina were faithfully portrayed, some of her more unpleasant actions would be very visible on screen.

    I do concur that losing Jacen's internal monologue would not help his character on screen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  17. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2012
    Another reason I'm glad I haven't read FotJ.

    This would work if the series were long enough, but wouldn't work in a classic SW Trilogy. They (sort of) tried this with Kylo, and it was a train wreck...he just wasn't super believable.
     
  18. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    FOTJ is not a pleasant experience to read.

    Eh Ren was never a hero. He was always whiny in a meta way-the "millennial dark sider", with his fits and the stormtroopers looking at the camera. I half suspect they wanted audiences to not take Ren seriously.
     
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  19. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 11, 2016
    Think any attempt to take him serious was taken away with that "Undercover Boss Starkiller Base"/"Matt the Radar Technican" video.
     
  20. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2012
    Which, of course, makes it hard to take any of the movie seriously. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed the actor interactions in 'Skywalker', but the First Order threat was hard to take seriously.
     
  21. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    If the intent was to craft a political message about how pathetic neo fascistic movements are, or otherwise make some sort of commentary in that regard-that aim was itself undermined by the movies asking the viewer to take the FO seriously.
     
  22. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 11, 2016
    Thing is, was Caedus so much a threat though? It´s pretty clear Luke could kill him at any time when he would take it into his own hands.
     
  23. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2012
    It depends on if you're basing Caedus off of what the 'Wook' SAYS happens, or what we actually see happen. So much of his war was off screen, so it makes it hard to get a reliable picture. Which is why I also dislike LotF as well. LFL never wanted Jacen to be competent at anything, it seems in hindsight.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  24. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Weird thing about Invincible is that Caedus is supposed to be winning the war, but Luke says he only fears falling if he directly confronts Caedus-the possibility of Caedus defeating Luke in a duel is never actually brought up(or well it is, but Luke says "nah I only fall") Its never outright said to be impossible per se, but none of the visions Luke or Jacen has show that. Thus we as readers are to assume-Luke will always beat Caedus, which undermines the menace of Caedus-as both as a cunning and powerful antagonist.

    Now personally-just as a match up I don't feel Jacen is guaranteed to lose to Luke, but Luke would win 8.5 times out of ten, or 9.5 if you really want to hype up Luke. Saying outright "Jacen will never be able to beat his uncle, therefore the reader should only fear the stakes of Luke falling(a dubious premise with the taint and all)" undermines Jacen's narrative power as a villain.

    Denning probably meant it explicitly-Luke has nothing to fear fighting Caedus except losing his own soul. Which I despise to no end. As it deflates the idea, that Darth Caedus could if things go a certain way triumph and impose his will.

    LFL as @SiouxFan says, seemed to want to avoid the idea of a victorious Caedus being possible, as a narrative contingency. Whereas Luke joining Vader or the Emperor-is implied by the narrative to be imaginable.

    And yes a lot of the war is off screen-we don't see the Confederation's push towards the core, or the supposed brilliance of Nek Bwua'tu. We hear about it, but LOTF never seemed really interested in showing it.

    Speaking of the above-why should we as readers fear a Caedus victory? From my read of Invincible, there is little that hints at what it will look like or why it would be bad-at least not in a way that is presented to the readers. Say Caedus defeats his sister, so what? If he is destined to fall to Luke, even if Luke goes dark as a result-then Caedus isn't really a good villain in a narrative sense. He's just a stepping stone to a Dark Luke(but even then LOTF and particularly Invincible don't really get across the implications of this in a way that makes even Caedus turning his uncle dark even in death, that invests the reader in desiring this not happening).

    And all these problems go with not having a consistent motivation and authorial infighting-you can't make Jacen a menacing villain, if you can't agree on his motivation.

    The difference with Ren is that Ren being ineffectual, or a villain without presence or conviction seems half the point. With Jacen-you got at least some narrative pathos, however poorly handled it was-that he was becoming and became a bad guy and needed to be stopped.

    Ren is a half ineffectual, half pitiable villain from the start and remains so.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  25. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2012
    This is actually a valid point. Ignoring the fact that I have come to agree with Sinre and think that Jacen planned on losing from the start, that his intent was to give the galaxy something to rally against, would any government he led post-war be worse Daala? I have my doubts.

    And why aren't the Corellians taken behind the woodshed for the war? Be made to pay reparations or something?