PT Jar Jar’s proposal doesn’t make any sense

When is this stated? The crawl says he sent Jedi ACTING AS AMBASSADORS in secret, but it's never stated that this is illegal? It was a power play on Valorum's part to send Jedi as ambassadors instead of regular bureaucrats, but it's never stated to be illegal.

When is it stated that the TF can murder Jedi just because they're unexpected?

Well, Valorum asks for proof and Padme acts like she has none, Valorum then immediately suggests a solution. It's gonna be kinda hard for the TF representatives to say that they never invaded Naboo, once the investigators get back to the senate, or get mysteriously killed on their way there/back.

 

The fact that it's unconstitutional in a democratic government for the leader to make executive decisions without going through the other legislative branches doesn't need explained. And as Kenobi says in RotS, the Jedi answer to the Senate not to it's leader.
(This is why I'm guessing Valorum asked Qui-Gon, of all the Jedi, to go to Naboo . And fwiw, in EU, it was decided that Jedi cannot intervene in matters of Trade).

Queen Amidala wants/needs real action now. She states she was not elected to watch her people die while the invasion is discussed in committee. Every minute that goes by, more of her people suffer.
The TF were the ones who suggested the investigation. And it was Mas Ameeda who urged Valorum to concede to the commission. All in league with Palpatine. So obviously this would not be a conducive route for Amidala. Both in universe for her as explained and out of universe to us, as we know Palpatine would pull his strings to bog things down. As he presumably would've also done had the Jedi testified.

You can tell by just about the entire Senate chanting "Vote now! Vote now!" (even the E.T.s) that it was near unanimous that their confidence in Valorum had waned. With no debates, no stalling. Same with the emergency powers vote.

 

Is the Chancellor not allowed to speak with someone about proposed solutions to a trade dispute? Is the chancellor not allowed to send an ambassador in his stead to discuss said dispute? Is he not allowed to use Jedi as ambassadors for said dispute? It was a power play, done is secret, but not illegal.

This is my whole point. We're told that the senate is slow and ineffectual, but the two times we actually see them vote for something (and the one time they vote off-screen for Palpatine to be the new Chancellor in TPM) they do it in a very short amount of time. Generally when you make a movie the rule is to show, not tell. And if you are gonna tell, what you're telling needs to line up with what little you're showing.

 

I'll admit that the implication isn't as obvious as I remembered it to be, but there has to be a reason that they were "secretly dispatched" instead of "officially dispatched". It implies that he doesn't technically have that kind of authority. And so it might not be illegal, per se, it's definitely something that would play against them in an actual legal case. Guilty people get off on technicalities where the prosecution screws up and the evidence is considered inadmissible all the time. Officially speaking, Qui-Gonn's and Obi-wan's testimony carries no more weight than Padme's. It's still he said/she said even if it's now 3 people instead of 1.

When they consider it a viable plan in the movie. The fact that their presence is a secret is what allows the Trade Federation to say "we know nothing about any ambassadors". There's nothing to contradict that claim.

Even assuming the investigators do eventually succeed at their jobs, the whole time the process plays out the Naboo continue to suffer. Government investigations are notoriously slow and inefficient and that's the whole point of the scene. They're not just going to zip to Naboo, say "oh yep, this place was definitely illegally invaded" and zip back to the senate with their answer. That's not how it works. Don't forget Sidious earlier words, "I have the Senate bogged down in procedure". Abusing the inherent weaknesses in large democratic bodies is his whole plan. But sure if that is how things would have played out then the whole everything doesn't make sense, I'd agree with that.

 

The Chancellor didn't send ambassadors in secret. He sent Jedi secretly as ambassadors. The Trade Federation was expecting ambassadors. This is why Nute Gunray shows no surprise when the Republic ship arrives at Naboo and they have the ambassadors go wait in the meeting room. This is also why the Naboo council is talking about how the Chancellor's ambassadors should already have arrived. Everyone knew that Valorum sent ambassadors, the only secret element was that the ambassadors were Jedi. That's the inciting element that gets Palpatine in a twist; not even Palpatine was expecting Valorum to have sent Jedi, but everyone knew that Valorum had sent ambassadors.

This is why it's stupid that Padme doesn't ask for the Jedi's testimonies to be read to the senate. Valorum asks for proof and she just sits there like a dummy. I mean, these movies are essentially made for kids, so not having one single character state that the Chancellor sending Jedi to act as his ambassadors was an illegal act tells me it wasn't.
Secret =\= Illegal.

 

If you're going to set up a diplomatic meeting to resolve a potentially violent conflict, you tell the parties involved that you're coming even if you don't make it public knowledge. No one outside of the Naboo and the Trade Federation ever makes any mention of them. But even assuming your interpretation is the correct one and it's just the Jedi part that's the secret, that would still put a hitch in the "these Jedi are the ambassadors I sent" reveal, no? It's pretty clear from the rest of the PT that the Jedi don't actually answer to the Chancellor, so he can't officially order them to do anything on his own. If Padme's own testimony isn't good enough I don't see how two Jedi just repeating the same words is any more convincing from a legal standpoint. Secret =\= illegal but there has to be some sort of benefit to the secrecy otherwise why even go to the effort?

 

Valorum didn't order them. He asked and they said okay.

...because the script is bad. Lucas wanted a cool action set piece with the Jedi at the beginning of the film and needed a way for them to get onboard the Trade Federation ship. If Palpatine knew the ambassadors were Jedi when they left Coruscant, then he would never have allowed them to reach Naboo in the first place, so it had to be a secret since Palpatine and Sidious are (spoilers) the same person.

A weak script is also the reason that Valorum is essentially impeached because of random things that happen off screen instead of his bumbling with the Naboo fiasco. The script would be much tighter if Valorum was ousted because he failed to prevent the Naboo invasion, but instead it's just a throwaway line about baseless accusations of corruption i.e. something that would have been fixed had further drafts been written.

 

What? Valorum was impeached because a frustrated Padme had declared a vote of "no confidence" against him, when he failed to immediately act on the Trade Federation's invasion, instead of announcing another committee to look into the matter. I think that was pretty obvious.

 

I find this whole "weak script/more resivions needed" line of argument to be in bad faith. The OT is much worse in this regard. The "no life forms aboard the escape pod" scene, Vader not attempting to retrieve the plans himself, Luke, Leia, Vader and Obi Wan clearly not being written with future twists in mind, why the Rebels didn't leave Yavin (at least get Leia out of there), etc etc etc.

Also how is "baseless accusations of corruption" a "throwaway line"???????
That's like Tarkin saying the senate has been been dissolved is a throwaway line because it happened offscreen.

Just ridiculous, this thread.

 

But doesn’t what is shown match up with what is said?

The vote of no confidence did little to actually address the crisis that inspired it. Naboo was outright invaded by the Trade Federation yet the republic didn’t do a thing about it.

Than you have the senate granting Palpatine emergency powers. In the face of being hours away from a galactic civil war they’ve done absolutely nothing to prepare for, their response was “oh ****, chancellor come fix this”.

Sure, the senate was able to act quickly in both situations but neither one demonstrates the Republic’s government being all that effective.

 

But the reason everyone is ready to pounce on Valorum is set up in the scene inside Palpatine's apartment.

PALPATINE: If I may say so, Your Majesty, the Chancellor has little real
power...he is mired down by baseless accusations of corruption. The bureaucrats are in charge now.

Palpatine could have easily said that "the senators all see him as a fraud who makes bad decscions based off his handling of your crisis on Naboo" but instead he just references some off-screen problem that isn't established before and is never brought up again. Strong scripts generally don't do that, at least not for something that effects the plot as strongly as this. It's just a coincidence.

Well, other Lucas written scripts being weak isn't exactly a good defense if you're trying to say his scripts aren't weak...

 

My meta point, and the general problem with prequel nitpickers, is that both trilogies are full of this stuff (even though I disagree with nearly all of your complaints in this thread), yet you guys mainly go after the PT and have this extremely haughty "I know exactly how this should have been done" tone.

Also address my Tarkin point.

 

The topic at hand has nothing to do with the OT, so why would I randomly start pointing out flaws in three films that no one is discussing?

 

I think there is certain logic to the idea that if you thought the OT was also this bad in this regard, you would not be nitpicking the PT, or even be on this forum. Therefore you have a double standard. Therefore you are mostly just trolling. In my opinion.

Also address my Tarkin point.

 

So if I find flaws in something, I can't also enjoy the aspects I think are done well? There's no double standard. I was just poking holes in the entire opening act of ROTJ in another thread earlier in the week. I can be a fan of something and still accept that there are problems with it.

Plus, I'm not even the person who started this thread.

 

If you say so. I just think that you have a double standard. How is Tarkin telling us the senate was disbanded not a "throwaway line"? I do tend to get illogically upset at things like this sometimes, but for some reason PT nitpicking gets to me in a way that OT nitpicking doesn't.

 

You can think what you want, but I'm just as harsh with the OT and ST, so your opinion has little to no founding in reality.

Seems like you are the one with a double standard then if you admit that you mind OT nitpicking less than PT nitpicking.

It is a "throwaway line." The context of the scene is that, now that the Death Star is completed and the Rebellion has openly attacked the Empire (the first victory the crawl mentions) Palpatine is able to disband the senate and claim total power over the Empire. And he knows no one will speak up about his abuse of power because they'll be afraid that the Death Star will obliterate their homeworlds. Imagine if you spoke out against a politician and your hometown was destroyed within 24 hrs. I bet no one else speaks up after that. The context is clear, and since there were no other films at the time, there was no reason to show any of it.

ANH isn't about all that stuff (even though it serves as absolutely fabulous window dressing), it's about the characters. If anything, since ANH is character driven, not showing Han decide to turn around and help Luke at the Death Star battle is more problematic than not showing the senate get disbanded.

 

I guess i just disagree with the way you are framing this stuff. You speak as if your opinions are facts "more script revisions would have fixed this". Maybe Lucas did what he wanted. Just like the Han thing. I would bot characterize it as problematic, just a choice.
I don't know.

 

It wouldn’t make sense for Palpatine to say “the senate views the chancellors as a fraud for his poor handling of the Naboo crisis” when seconds ago he was just talking about how corrupt the senate itself& government overall has become.

 

I guess my rebuttal would be, just because Lucas did what he wanted doesn't mean the end result was a work of quality. Auteur's aren't shielded from criticism.
...but we're getting off topic though. To note, I doubt you'd have people saying that aspects of a movie made in 1999 still make no sense in 2020 if the movie didn't have problems.

 

I mean, I don't think that's necessarily true. Many people hold positions that are not based in fact, in many areas of life.

 

Okay.

I'm talking about a rewrite. Change the dialogue to fit.

 

But why is it necessary? As is, Palpatine sets up the current government as a whole as being corrupt and ineffective which is later supported by the events of the movie itself via the handling of the Naboo crisis.
I don’t see the problem with what’s already there.

 

I'm not talking about the senate. I'm talking about the Chancellor. The core reason why the senate doesn't believe in him has nothing to do with the events of the story; it's just some gossip that coincidentally is also going on at the same time that is never established before this scene and never mentioned again. It is literally just Lucas sitting there and going, "Oh, there needs to be a reason why the senate is already prepped to turn against Valorum, umm... someone said he was corrupt once." And then moving on to the next scene.

 

The Naboo incident was the straw that broke the camels back with Valorum. In fact there's really no reason to believe he wouldn't have been allowed to continue his position as Chancellor if he had successfully addressed Naboo's issues and Padme had not been pushed to call for a vote of no-confidence. The "baseless allegations of corruption" is just to point out that Valorum has been embattled for a long time and his unpopularity in the Senate didn't just spring up this morning, and specifically the context is that he can't afford from a political standpoint to make any more enemies than he already has, which handcuffs his ability to make bold decisions. It's also pretty obvious that Palpatine is behind the spread of these baseless accusations which shows that he's been working towards undermining Valorum for awhile now. That's the point of that line. It wouldn't have been "fixed" because it does exactly the job that it is meant to and there's nothing wrong with it.