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Jedi: Aayla Secura - Heatstorm (spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by wild_karrde, Aug 18, 2003.

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  1. Whitey

    Whitey Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2003
    Thanks for proving me right, John. ;)

    Oh, and the comic is awesome, BTW.
     
  2. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    jfostrander;

    It's not the fans calling him that, it's Wizards of the coast that turned him into a sith magician, "officially and canonically";


    [blockquote]"Before the outbreak of open war, T'ra Saa served as the Jedi defender of the sector that held Kiffex and Kiffu (after her old friend Tholme abandoned the post to train young Quinlan Vos) and was later instrumental in the defeat of the Anzati Sith magician Volfe Karkko. Like most Jedi Masters, she reluctantly accepted the rank of Republic General during the Clone Wars. The Neti consular has seen fierce action on Devaron and Geonosis"[/blockquote]-Wizards.com.

    This is not much different than how Dietz in the Dark Empire wrote that Lord Kaan, and all his minions were only Dark Jedi. But then they were turned into Sith, by the Essential Chronology, and other sources, and then finally the comic series, "Jedi Vs. Sith" showing that they were sith as well.

    This is also not much different than Zahn's intention that there was only one emperor's Hand, but later sources then saying there were others, and later gamer #5 listing off a handful of them. Zahn stated once in an [link=http://www.jadecrusades.com/interviews/zahn-stackpole.html]interview[/link] when asked about the gamer #5 article, that he intended that there be only one hand, "it is my opinion he had only one Hand, and anybody that says otherwise is lying, or conniving". Hmm that's not much different than your, "If anyone else calls him that, they've got it wrong. Karkko is a Dark Jedi. Period."

    What he forgot, and apparently you have is this is the Expanded Universe, and that the Expanded Universe is a shared universe, it doesn't just belong to one author or another, it goes far beyond them to many authors, and continuity editors, that create and expand on the univese. The intentions of the original authors aren't always kept, or always accepted, as other authors, and the Lucasfilm Editors expand on the universe and expand on the histories of characters. So now Volfe Karkko has officially been expanded upon as a Sith Magician according to a canonical source, and the LFL editors allowed it through, as is the ways of a shared universe, it is now an official accepted fact, and what is officially "right". You should be happy about LFL's official and canonical expansion on your character, :), because it makes him even more sinister.
     
  3. jfostrander

    jfostrander Writer: -Legacy -Republic/Jedi/Purge star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2001
    >>You should be happy about LFL's official and canonical expansion on your character, , because it makes him even more sinister. <<

    I know all about the EU and about how characters are used elsewhere. In this case, Wizards of the Coast misread the source material and the editor in chrage of it didn't catch it, They haven't changed ADDED anything, they misread what was created, which I wrote. Making a mistake and pouring cement on it doesn't make it correct. If they go back and change it in future editions, what will you say then? Also, the needs of a game at some times create variances with a story. In our story, Karkko was a Dark Jedi. Not a Sith.

    Here's a compromise -- all these stories of the past are being collected by historians and there may be more than one version, based upon interpretations of the facts. Some interps are more accurate than others.


    Why should this be a big deal at all? I guess that, for me, it grossly misinterprets the character. I see a big difference between a Sith and a Dark Jedi. Sith pursue the Dark Side as a matter of policy; the Dark Jedi fall to the Dark Side of the Force. Karkko was a GOOD Jedi who fell.

    Anyway, that's how I see it. You see it different? Fine. EU's a big place.

    John
     
  4. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    If, later authors choose to continue to make him a Sith Magician Dark Jedi, we know the EU has continued to go in that direction, and that wizards was expanding on your character. If they change the wording on that article to make it "Dark Jedi", then we know they are admitting a mistake, rather than a expansion to your character's knowledge and history.

    In anycase it's still not much different than what Dietz called and intended to be "Dark Jedi" in the dark forces graphic novels, becoming Sith later on in the EU, or the sith connections added to the Sorceror's of Tund, and Irek Ismaren, where no sith knowledge had originally been, or how Carnor Jax was made a "Dark Lord of the Sith" when no sith connection had originally been made, or how Flint was made a Dark Lord of the Sith under Lumiya, when no connection that sith had been made previously, or how Jerec was given sith connections when he hadn't previously had sith connections.

    "Karkko was a GOOD Jedi who fell."

    Personally that is how I see dooku, and anakin both were GOOD Jedi that fell, apparently the Rogue Jedi(2000bby) was a GOOD Jedi, before he fell. They then became sith. Interesting enough, Anakin has been reffered to both a Dark Jedi, and Sith at the same time. TPM novel refers to Sith, as being Dark Jedi as well(though I'm not stating that all Dark Jedi are Sith, but merely pointing out that Sith are also known as Dark Jedi).

    On a related note, a "Sith Magician" is a bit different than a "Dark Lord of the Sith", they are less powerful than a DLOTS, and have less sith knowledge than a DLOTS, as well, see Dark Side sourcebook.
     
  5. kampilan

    kampilan Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Totally forgot about this Lit page...

    Got the book Wednesday(barely), read it and loved it. Great dialogue by John and the action sequences by Jan were awesome.
    I really loved the scenes with Quin and Aayla.
    It was good to read a bit more of DW's past with Aurra and also why DW is called by her new name. DW does look pretty good, a bit like a Deborah Harry! The small bit with Xiaan was a great way to end the story. It'd be nice to hear more from her in the future, even if only by name.
    I like how we get to see Aayla like never before. And the similarites between her and Aurra finally revealed.

    This book is about sold out here in my area and it probably has more to do with Aurra and Kit than Aayla...but its still pretty amazing to know that it flew off the shelves. Lots of Aurra fans here and many may be miffed, but sales were great so maybe they came away with a new found respect for Aayla?
     
  6. jfostrander

    jfostrander Writer: -Legacy -Republic/Jedi/Purge star 4 VIP

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    Jul 16, 2001
    >>This book is about sold out here in my area and it probably has more to do with Aurra and Kit than Aayla...but its still pretty amazing to know that it flew off the shelves. Lots of Aurra fans here and many may be miffed, but sales were great so maybe they came away with a new found respect for Aayla? <<

    Great to hear about the sales. Aayla has also acquired a lot of fans and the cover is a great shot of her, IMO. We treat Aurra with a lot of respect in the story so I trust her fans won't be TOO miffed. Plus, she isn't dead.

    Obi-John
     
  7. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    It should be noted that even you too, John, while writing Twilight didn't follow the intent from another author's story, and came up with your own idea that was entirely different, but interesting. The intention of Jedi Academy Trilogy, was that no one knew what exactly created the spice on kessel. Some thought it was a mineral naturally occuring in the geology, It wasn't until Han, mining staff, and some of the slaves he was with, discovered the energy spiders in Jedi Academy Trilogy, that they then knew what created spice. This is talked about in the JAT Sourcebook, and Essential Guide to Aliens as well.

    "The mine staff only recently discovered the energy spiders, for many years prior to that, the spice's origin remained a mystery."-Guide to aliens.

    Yet, you apparently didn't know about that, and wrote how multiple people knew about the spiders during prequel times, even to the point of capturing them, and altering them... Not only that but artists in your comic, didn't even follow the descriptions in the book, and the art already created for spice spiders in other sources, and made them out to look more like traditional 8 legged spiders(they had 10-15 or so coming out randomly from different points on their bodies according to the novels, and more than one mouth).

    But even with these opposing story points in your comic, they are still new parts of the official continuity, worthy of being incorporated into the complete EU, even if they contradicted the original information, forcing it to have to be reinterpreted. In other words the authors original intention doesn't really mean much if later authors decide to change the details and add to the history, and the editors accept it.

    ...and Twilight turned out to be a pretty cool story, and worthy of being part of the EU history, though I liked some of your later ones better. Perhaps the spice spiders look different in your story due to the genetic manipulation to make them produce Glitteryll...

    The other one I find interesting is the IG line, and IG-88 history, KJA intended for them to be designed and created after the rise of the empire, and there to be only 5 IGs including the IG-72, yet, recently they have been showing up in AOTC era. According to starwars.com databanks, they are from the old republic era, they have been showing up in the clone wars(including in the upcoming cartoon, and young boba fett series), and one pre-aotc adventure in Episode 2: Adventures, and we know about a 5th IG-88(total of 6 IGs) according to a story included in Star Wars missions, that was renamed Grand Moff For-AteSee, and a few sources stating that there were 6 IG droids(probably in refrence to the Grand Moff).

    What this must mean is that after the rise of the empire, that the empire was working on [re]designing the IG line.

    [image=http://users.thevision.net/valiento/GrandMoffFor-AteSee.jpg] [image=http://www.ulcer8d.org.uk/misc/cwpics/cw_p7.jpg]
     
  8. kampilan

    kampilan Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Oh,yeah Jan's cover rocks and pretty neat we are treated to a similar image in the book. I definitely need to order that sweet-looking DH cover poster Amy Allen has available on her site :)
    >>> spoiler<<<



    Yes, Aurra doesn't perish, and I am very pleased with the overall outcome of both characters, surprising and unexpected as it was. But these hard-core Aurra fans, I know they would've wanted to see Aurra do more damage. I personally think the duel was just fine. Besides, Aurra's "souvenir" should help fuel up some motivation and her last shot should satisfy her fans. :p
     
  9. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    Aurra better not perish, considering that according to New Essential Guide to Characters, she apparently showed up just before the events of ROTJ on Tatooine to take part in Jabba's demolition derby(a refrence to Star Wars Demolition).
     
  10. wild_karrde

    wild_karrde Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 1999
    Only Val would argue with the guy who wrote the stuff :p
     
  11. jfostrander

    jfostrander Writer: -Legacy -Republic/Jedi/Purge star 4 VIP

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    Jul 16, 2001
    Val


    If someone takes something and changes it for a story, fine, well, and good. But this is someone basing a comment on MY story which, I might point out, is also LFL approved and, therefore, cannon. ("Cannon" being a more and more fluid concept these days.) What makes THEIR version more official than mine? They are simply referring to my story; they don't CREATE new stuff. From what I read of what you sent, they were describing MY story. MY point is -- somebody midread the story and thus mislabelled Karkko. I don't think that we need to pour concrete over a mistake and say 'This is what is." If someone changes something IN A STORY as opposed to a reference in a guide, okay, fine. That's the EU. And I'm all for a "resonable extrapolation" of given data. I do it myself. But I don't see this as ADDING something to Karkko; it's getting what I did wrong.

    John

    PS TWILIGHT also went through LFL approval, as does everything that I write for SW. They obviously felt that what we did with the spiders were allowable.
     
  12. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "What makes THEIR version more official than mine?"

    From the way I see it, I don't see your vision any more or less valid than the other author's idea, but both are equal, both are right. He is a Dark Jedi, with "Sith Majicks"(Sith Magician).

    "PS TWILIGHT also went through LFL approval, as does everything that I write for SW. They obviously felt that what we did with the spiders were allowable.'

    Exactly my point, :D, editors obviously felt what that other author said about your character was allowable, even though it didnt' follow the original authors intended information. I've also spoken to another lfl employee(I will with hold names) who thinks it was a decent addition to your story as well, and has said there may be another Karkko piece coming along too that may expand on it.
     
  13. O-B-GATES

    O-B-GATES Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2003
    "We treat Aurra with a lot of respect in the story so I trust her fans won't be TOO miffed. Plus, she isn't dead."


    Of course she's not dead. John, did you realize that Aurra shows up on Tatooine almost 3 months after your story? Any plans to revisit her in prison.
     
  14. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    Sheesh, why does the Karkko thing matter? So he's a fallen Jedi who somehow picked up the title of Sith Magician. They're not mutually exclusive. Is it really worth making a big, or any sized deal over?

    TC
     
  15. masterskywalker

    masterskywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2001
    "Aurra better not perish, considering that according to New Essential Guide to Characters, she apparently showed up just before the events of ROTJ on Tatooine to take part in Jabba's demolition derby(a refrence to Star Wars Demolition)."

    No, it said there were RUMORS that Aurra survived and was in the competition. It could have easily been another member of her species trying to capitalize on her fame. Just like Jodo Kast did with Fett.
     
  16. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Nay-Sayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    As an aside, what is the correct pronunciation of "Tholme?" Is the "h" silent or not?
     
  17. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "No, it said there were RUMORS that Aurra survived and was in the competition. It could have easily been another member of her species trying to capitalize on her fame. Just like Jodo Kast did with Fett."

    Oh, I'm sure that another member of her species had a Anzati Brain implant like she had, or have a hatred of Jedi like she did, and was trying to hunt down Wade Vox, to quote the manual backhistory for her;

    "Aurra Sing was once a Jedi hopeful, but her darker tendencies forced her from the order. She has since become one of the most infamous bounty hunters in the galaxy. Using her connection to the Force, Aurra has pursued Jedi since the days of the Old Republic, collecting their lightsabers as trophies. Soon after the Battle of Hoth, she followed her instincts to Jabba the Hutt?s palace, sensing a new Force wielder. But her victim has been difficult to spot until his powers surface, and Aurra must bide her time. To identify her prey, Aurra has entered Jabba?s demolition contest, riding her ancient swoop. If nothing else, the event will allow her to hone her deadly skills..."

    The only reason that NEGTC calls it a rumor is only because it's an inuniverse document, and most inuniverse people don't know the facts of what really happened that day, but the manual clarifies.
     
  18. Myaha

    Myaha Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2002
    " Oh, I'm sure that another member of her species had a Anzati Brain implant like she had"

    her mother had ;)
     
  19. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

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    Mar 19, 2000
    But her mother died didn't she? I'm talking about alive.
     
  20. Myaha

    Myaha Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 24, 2002
    okay... with the additional "alive" you're right :D
     
  21. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

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    Mar 19, 2000
    Oh, I assume you didn't notice that the context of that sentence was from ROTJ time period? What with the refrence to Wade Vox? At that time there was no other people of her species with Anazati brain implants.
     
  22. Myaha

    Myaha Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 24, 2002
  23. jfostrander

    jfostrander Writer: -Legacy -Republic/Jedi/Purge star 4 VIP

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    Jul 16, 2001
    >> As an aside, what is the correct pronunciation of "Tholme?" Is the "h" silent or not?<<

    Like the "Th" an "THE". The H is sounded..

    Unless a sourcebook somewhere says otherwise.<g>

    Obi-John
     
  24. jfostrander

    jfostrander Writer: -Legacy -Republic/Jedi/Purge star 4 VIP

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    Jul 16, 2001
    Val

    My last word on this whole "Sith magician" stuff. If you have other info, fine. To me, calling Karkko a "Sith magician" reads like a mistake. If somebody does a STORY in which he is a Sith magician, that's fine. But if they are referring to MY story, which they were, then in that story he was a Dark Jedi and that was an important detail in the story. He never studied to be a Sith anything -- in my story. If you quote MY story, I simply ask that the details be gotten RIGHT. If there's ANOTHER story which EXPANDS on Karkko's character, that's fine. That's how things go in the EU and I have no problem with it. I simply feel misquoted, however.

    I think this argument could go on forever and I don't think you will, or want, to see my point. You want Karkko to be a Sith magician? Then for you he is. Perhaps at this juncture we should just agree to disagree and let the discussion get back to JEDI AAYLA which is what the thread is about, okay?

    John
     
  25. jfostrander

    jfostrander Writer: -Legacy -Republic/Jedi/Purge star 4 VIP

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    Jul 16, 2001
    >>Of course she's not dead. John, did you realize that Aurra shows up on Tatooine almost 3 months after your story? Any plans to revisit her in prison. <<

    We know how she would get out. But we may not tell that story. Assume that she escapes. She's Aurra, after all.

    Obi-John
     
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