TV Discussion The Jedi: Their Roles and Philosophies in Star Wars TV

Nope. Disagree with everything you say, I strongly believe she is not a Jedi.

 

When Yoda talks to Luke Skywalker about him being the last of the Jedi, he does not know Ahsoka has survived Order 66. As far as he knows, Obi Wan Kenobi was the only Jedi who survived, along with himself. So even if Ahsoka Tano is a Jedi, there is no plot hole. Yoda is in exile on Dagobah. He does not communicate with the Rebel Alliance, has no idea who Fulcrum is or even that they exist, and most certainly does not think it could be Ahsoka. For the same reasons, he does not know about Ezra Bridger, Kal Cestis, or anyone else who may have survived or trained to be a Jedi post-ROTS.

 

@Darth Chuck Norris

Yeah. That's not appropriate at all. Knock it off.

 

I love that Din refers to Ahsoka as "the nice lady."

 

Seriously?

 

Yes.

 

People are going to lose their minds, on both sides of the aisle, if Ezra is the one to come take Grogu. I was merely commenting on that.

 

You've been talking about the OT, and we're also talking about the Saga as a whole and how everything fits or doesn't fit as a totality (if we're not, I'm not really interested to discuss this further). The whole point I've been making is that Luke's status as the new hope changes over the course of the OT, it doesn't remain static as you seem to want to argue, and this status changes even further as we move towards the ST timeline and his Jedi Order is destroyed. Analyzing the story in its totality, we see that Luke turned out to be less important than we may have suspected, and especially so when compared to his Legends's stories. But if you're only arguing that Luke's status as an extra special figure only really applies to A New Hope, I don't have a problem with it. But I also don't think it's much of a point to argue for, as it ignores the entire rest of the Saga and Luke's total journey and arc.

So now you accept that the OT itself tells us Luke isn't the last hope (you shift the argument around from ANH to the OT whenever it suits your position, please don't). That's good because we see how Leia finishes Rey's training in the ST. What the canon is telling us is that Luke is an important figure, but there's no reason to be too demanding about some ideal "last" hope status. Leia exists, other Force users exist, but the number of Jedi have been greatly diminished, almost extinguished. Why this isn't enough for some, why folks demand that Luke always be the only official Jedi during a period of time to maintain his specialness (or the plot consistency, if that's what you care about), is a good question, because it doesn't really seem necessary any longer to the story. The essential quality that makes Luke and Leia important is that they are Anakin's children. Ahsoka faced Vader in Rebels and she couldn't change his heart. Only his children could. The idea that Luke and Ahsoka could have teamed up to kill Vader completely misunderstands the meaning of the story. This isn't about defeating Vader physically; it's about changing people. So the continuing fixation on "too many Jedi" is misplaced and reveals a misunderstanding of the Saga.

As for plot holes, since that seems to really bother certain fans, just imagine that Ahsoka or whoever is busy fighting another enemy during whatever period you want Luke to be special. Maybe she's busy with Thrawn in the Unknown Regions while Luke is facing Vader. Imagine whatever you like, or enjoy identifying a plot hole. However, your feelings about the plot aren't going to change the fact that the story, whatever it's imperfections -- which are many -- grew beyond the original emphasis on Luke, and so focusing so much on his specialness really seems like a waste of time (to me).

I don't really understand the interest you and others take in plot holes. For a story that spans so many movies, shows, and books now, it's completely expected for things to change. I believe it's a mistake to assume that the OT must remain unaffected through this process, and worshiped as some kind of holy text that must be obeyed at all costs. The simple truth is that Lucas dreamed a lot of this up as he went, and many creators do this, and things shift around and change as a result. To demand perfect consistency and allegiance to the OT as some kind ur-text doesn't seem realistic or even palatable.

What you're pointing out demonstrates what I was pointing out before -- Yoda is not an omniscient narrator who understands the story as though he were a stand in for the author/narrator. ROTJ tells us this by showing Luke defeat Vader by changing his heart, which Yoda/Kenobi didn't think was possible. What the story tells us at the end, in retrospect, is what matters.

It implies that Kenobi and Yoda don't have all the information at their disposal, or are blinded by their own beliefs about Vader. Once we accept that they are limited or biased, then it's possible to imagine how they might not consider other characters as options to face Vader. Maybe they don't perceive the others as real Jedi, maybe they know they aren't available, maybe they don't know they exist, maybe they think Luke is more powerful. These holes can be explained with a line or two. They don't plague me as a result, as they do you.

I don't think we'll see any Jedi show up this season. It's possible, but the show has a history of introducing possibilities that don't immediately payoff. I think Din gathering up his friends is more interesting anyway than a stranger showing up to help -- feels too deus ex machina.

I don't really buy the logic people are assuming about a Jedi coming to save Grogu if Grogu didn't want to be trained. If he doesn't want to be trained, it seems strange the Jedi would still come to save him or even sense he was in danger. I mean, he could, but it sort of feels like "you divorced me but I decided to come stalk you."

 

No. You weren't just commenting, you were being inappropriate. No one is going to care if it's Ezra or Luke.

 

Be it Luke or Ezra or literally anybody else.... I just doubt they're going to take Grogu.

 

I mention this above in a much much too long post, but I don't see any other Jedi showing up this season at all. This thread will be picked up next season.

I think a Jedi showing up to rescue everyone would not only feel like a deus ex machina, but it would sort of be a slap in the face of our Mando characters' ability to save the day. To me, that would really make the show feel like it was favoring the Jedi to the expense of its own narrative focus.

 

Which means its perfectly fine to have Ahsoka show up, as she is not a Jedi!

 

That's fine that you disagree. Dave Filoni says otherwise. I mean, read the quote. This is literally according to the guy that created Ahsoka with George Lucas and The Mandalorian show runner.

I've considered this for quite a while, and it makes no sense.

As we know, Yoda is very powerful and wise. In the films (and in TCW/Rebels) it is shown repeatedly that Yoda can sense, feel, communicate with Jedi across space and time. Heck, Yoda likely the first to communicate with a dead Jedi.

In the PT, when Anakin is in trauma/danger, Yoda can sense it very specifically from across the galaxy. During the OT era, Yoda is living on (and using the Force) on the one of the most powerful, pure, Force enriched planets in the galaxy. Dagobah amplifies The Force.

In this dark time of desperation Yoda does not, or cannot, sense/communicate with other active Jedi in the galaxy? He suddenly cannot feel them through The Force? Again, this simply goes against every thing we have been shown onscreen. It's a plot hole that is unexplained.

My entire point has always been: While it is wonderful/fun/exciting that the saga is expanding to bring back fan favorites like Ahsoka, having her active/alive in the OT era creates plot holes that reduce events/characters in the OT.

Exactly. This is exactly the plot hole and continuity issue that I am talking about. Suddenly the gravity, the peril, the stakes, and the urgency presented to us in the OT is not really a thing anymore. In the overall narrative, and a galactic sense, why should we worry too much about Luke's training, or survival, if he and Leia no longer are the last of the Jedi line?

Before, if Luke turned evil or died, it was game over for the good guys. If there is Ahsoka, or a handful of any other Force users/Jedi out in the galaxy, this is not the case. Not only does this re-contextualize the OT, it sucks much of the dramatic gravitas from the story.

This is not what I am arguing as it is ESB and ROTJ that repeatedly explains the stakes/danger/peril to the galaxy/Rebellion that hinges on Luke being trained as a /becoming a Jedi and defeating Vader/The Emperor.

Please don't argue in poor faith or accuse me of such. I already acquiesced this point to you many posts ago. I said that I'd consider both Luke and Leia to be the last/only hope as Yoda categorizes the Skywalker twins as such in ESB. This point is cemented in ROTJ with the twin sister reveal.

The fact that "it doesn't really seem necessary any longer to the story" is the problem. This removes much of the drama/peril/danger from the OT narrative and directly contradicts what we are being told. If Luke (and Leia) simply are "less important than we thought" that retroactively damages the story.

Again, the OT centers around Luke becoming a Jedi. If you make this "less necessary" or "less important", it negatively impacts the narrative and contradicts the story being told.

You don't care about plot consistency? Really?

Hypothetical:
Let's pretend it's revealed in The Mandalorian that Anakin Skywalker, was in fact a twin, and this twin shows up next season to train Grogu. You'd be cool with that? You'd simply shrug your shoulders and go with it? You would categorize this simply to be a changing of our understanding of the PT/OT? You wouldn't wonder why Anakin's twin never was mentioned, or showed up, during the saga?

You keep saying this without responding to my rebuttal. This IS NOT why Yoda and Obi-Wan train Luke or deem him (and Leia) as "...our only hope."

Yoda and Obi-Wan do not think Luke is going defeat the Emperor/Vader by appealing to Anakin Skywalker's empathy and feelings. In fact, both Yoda and Obi-Wan think that the fact that Luke is Vader's son makes things more dangerous. So much so, that Yoda doesn't even want to train the kid initially but does so out of desperation.

You seem to be suggesting that Yoda would not have chosen Ahsoka to face Vader and The Emperor because Ahsoka would not have been able to "change his heart." Besides being a separate situation, this is completely besides the point. As I said, Yoda and Ben did not train Luke because they had hopes that he could "change Vader's heart."

Viewers shouldn't have to create our own head cannon to explain, plaster over, cover up a plot hole. Fans shouldn't have to rely on their imaginations to fix a muddled narrative line that used to be fairly straightforward.

Again, I love Ahsoka and am thrilled she's in the mix. Yet, her presence during this era raises some BIG questions/issues that directly impact the heart and soul of Luke's narrative, and the OT itself.

These are questions that I hope are answered soon, and I am open to many possibilities/explanations as to why Yoda and Obi-Wan considered Luke (Leia) "...our only hope" and "...the Last of the Jedi" if there were, in fact, other Jedi/Force users active and alive at the same time.

I am not sure who you are talking to. Check out my other posts. I am fairly open to change. I dig Luke's characterization in TLJ, I like Palpatine's return in TROS. I understand why people have issues with these, and I empathize, but the films give explanations for these retcons. Whether they are weak or strong explanations, or not, is another issue.

Ahsoka being and active Jedi during this era doesn't just go against our previous assumptions, it directly contradicts what we are told/shown in the films without any such explanation.

I don't view the OT this way. I mean, it IS the foundation for this entire fictional universe. Yet, as I explained I am open to change/retcons as long as they are explained.

Imagine if Obi-Wan never sat down with Luke in ROTJ and explained why he "lied" about Anakin and Vader being different people. Imagine if that "certain point of view" speech never took place. That would leave a gaping hole of unanswered questions.

Again, I am not sure you know who you are talking to. I frequently point out that Lucas retconned things all of the time. I don't mind Star Wars evolving/changing/expanding. I welcome it.

Yet, almost all major Star Wars retcons received some kind of explanation. Make no mistake, Ahsoka, and Force users/Jedi, being alive and active during this era is a BIG retcon that should not just be ignored and subjugated to "choose your own head cannon" status.

Consider: When The Clone Wars premiered, the fact that Anakin Skywalker had a Padawan was a HUGE retcon that drew the ire/skepticism of many fans. Yet, TCW went out of it's way to explain why we don't see Ahsoka during Revenge of the Sith. The final season deftly wove her quest into the narrative of ROTS illustrating clearly why she is not with Anakin when he turns.

Consider: Darth Maul surviving is a HUGE retcon from the PT. Yet, TCW spent an entire season/arc explaining how/why he survived and furthered his story.

Consider: The Emperor surviving his fall/death is a HUGE retcon from the OT. Many fans didn't like it. Yet TROS did explain that it was dark magic/Sith alchemy that allowed him to live. I mean, that excuse may have been weak sauce, but at least the explanation is there. Plus, there is precedent from the old EU as well as a call back to "The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis" to lean on.

Again, I don't mind retcons/change of plans/altered narratives despite the fact that that some of them have explanations that are maybe less than rock solid. Even weak explanations are more than we have so far with Ahsoka and any other Jedi/Force users being alive/active during this era. So far, we have nothing.

I am not saying Yoda is omniscient. I am saying that he has repeatedly been shown to be able to sense/feel/communicate with Force users/Jedi across space and time*. Again, Yoda could sense Anakin's pain across the galaxy in the PT. Yoda was the first to communicate with dead Jedi.

Yoda being unaware of Ahsoka's existence/activities during the OT era is a plot hole that is, as of yet, unexplained. Yoda, being unable/unwilling to communicate or enlist Ahsoka is a plot hole that is, as of yet, unexplained.

*I asked this before and you left it unanswered. Did Yoda NOT communicate with Ezra at some point in Rebels?

Again, you misunderstand me. These incongruities don't plague me. Yet, this is different than pretending they don't exist. As of yet, these plot holes do exist and they have not, to date, been "explained with a line or two."

If you are able to create your own imaginary narrative/explanations/head cannon that makes you not care, great. Say that. I just don't think that the audience should have to fill in the blanks, especially, when it's a fairly sizable issue that impacts the OT narrative (and Luke's story) in such a big way.

As of now, The Mandalorian has wonderfully integrated itself into the PT/TCW narrative. Yet, it seems almost like a separate entity from the OT. This should not be the case in a shared universe.

As I said, I am all for retcons and evolving the story as long as the BIG stuff is explained. Make no mistake, Ahsoka being alive, well, actively doing Jedi stuff during the OT era is a BIG issue that directly contrasts/weakens the OT narrative.

This isn't some little detail, like Boba Fett surviving the sarlaac pit, and being much older in appearance than he should be. It's bigger than that, and it impacts a core part of the Star Wars narrative.

 

There should've been a T.I.E fighter there for her to get off the planet.

There should be 4 there with 3 Inquisitors and Vader.

I think Vader's got destroyed by the temple exploded? So he probably would've taken an inquisitor T.I.E back.

Maul took another inquisitor T.I.E to leave the planet.

That leaves one left for Ahsoka. Of course Vader could've destroyed it or it might of been damaged in the explosion.

 

Yoda was so powerful and wise he basically lived with Palpatine for years yet didn't suss him out as the most evil, powerful being in the galaxy. The fact that he didn't know Ahsoka survived Order 66 is totally believable. At the end of the clone wars we see Ahoska talking to Yoda and Windu's holograms....where one calls her a citizen and the other knows she is not a Jedi.

 

Yoda does know that Ahsoka survived Order 66 (his Zoom-call to the Lothal Temple Rebels Season 2 included a hi-there to her) But the show also implied this kind of communication could only occur in that temple (or other similar sites.) It's far from certain that he knows whether she's still alive during the OT.

However, the fact remains that even if Ahsoka had successfully checked out of the Malachor Motel by the time of the OT (which is unknown at this time), Ahsoka does not answer to Yoda. So Yoda could have said "Well, another there is. But I know not where she is and follows her own agenda she does after screwed up and kicked her out of the Order we did" wouldn't be very useful in motivating Luke.

 

These are two different issues.

The PT tells us that the shroud of the dark side is, in effect, blinding the Jedi from seeing what's going on with the Sith and the dark side. This in no way pertains to Yoda sensing/feeling/communicating with other Jedi across space in time.
Certainly in the PT we witness Yoda doing this very thing even with the dark side "clouding" things.

Furthermore, as I have already stated, Yoda is on Dagobah during the OT era. This planet is pure in the Force and, if anything, amplifies his abilities/power/sight, etc. This is explained in TCW.

Once again, Ahsoka "not being an official Jedi in title/rank/status" is a technicality that has no real bearing on my point. Again, refer to the Dave Filoni quote in which he basically says Ahsoka is more of a Jedi than a lot of "official" Jedi.

This may very well be true and I am fine with this. However, I think this should be made clear. If Ahsoka refused* to answer the call for help from Yoda and/or Obi-Wan during the OT era/galactic civil war, this needs to be addressed.

*This should rankle fans as much as Luke in TLJ as being "out of character." I mean, the galaxy is on the brink and she refuses to help? This is just as egregious as Luke staying on Ach-To, but worse because she clearly is still leading that Jedi life in every other way. Also, her refusing to help also flies in the face of the Dave Filoni characterization/quote posted earlier.

 

She was helping out the Rebellion in her Fulcrum role. If she got off Malachor before the OT, she could still be helping out in that way. Not at all comparable to Luke on Ach-To.

If Obi-Wan or Yoda ever suggested she try to kill Vader again, she could reply "No way. I faced him once already and I had to tell myself I was doing it for revenge to do that. You know, the path to the Dark Side thing. That was a failure on my part and I'm not going down that path again. And before you cross your arms and give me that look, Master Kenobi, you didn't have the cojones to finish him off on Mustafar either. So don't hang this on me. Anakin may be lost but I won't be the one to kill him."

That'll work for me.

 

She could be helping out in that way, and I am fine with it. Emphasis on could. Point is, we don't know. Based on your humorous hypothetical, if Ahsoka refuses to help (an only follows her own agenda) because Yoda screwed up by kicking her out of the Order that is a bit like Luke. Refusing to help and following her own agenda, etc.

Again, great. Wonderful explanation. If something like this were to be shown/stated it would explain things and go a long way to seal up the narrative. I am not picky.

I think there are a lot of ways they could explain Ahsoka's absence during the OT era, and many ways in which they could explain why Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't regard her/consider her as a viable option. Something more than a "technicality" that explains why they had to turn to the "too old to train" son of Darth Vader when they were at their most desperate hour.

I am open to many possible explanations.... just give us something...

 

Why does it even need an explanation?

It’s already clear none of the other Jedi alive during that period (beside the Skywalker twins) have neither the raw power or talent needed to beat Vader and Sidious. It’s still game over if Luke goes down regardless if he’s the only Jedi alive or one of a small handful.


Plus the Galaxy is a pretty big place so Yoda and Ben trying to find other surviving Jedi is more likely to get themselves or others killed than it is to actually find some & survive afterwards.

 

1. Yoda says there are no other Jedi alive at that time. "Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be..." Ahsoka being alive/active as a Jedi contradicts this and creates a sizable plot hole/continuity error that is, so far, unexplained.

2. Luke's raw power/talent isn't exactly what makes him an ideal candidate. Nor is it why he is being trained, nor is it how /why The Emperor/Vader is defeated. If anything, Yoda considers actually Luke's raw power/talent (and other similarities to Anakin) a threat/danger to himself, and the galaxy.

Yoda says, "...only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally.." can defeat Vader/The Emperor. Not, specifically only Luke, nor the "most powerful/talented Jedi*" can do it. Is Luke the best candidate on it's face? Absolutely not, yet he's all that's they've got.


3. Luke being The Last Jedi, or "one of a small handful" is a fairly huge distinction given what we are specifically told in the narrative of the OT, and saga in general.


*Is Luke more powerful/talented than Ahsoka? More powerful/talented than Obi-Wan? Yoda? Mace Windu? This seems like another topic for another thread...

What? It's not like they have to have a sit on a seeing stone, or post an ad online looking for missing Jedi. Yoda can literally reach out with The Force to feel/connect with/find other Jedi through space and time. He is shown to be aware when they are in pain, trauma, or die. Why would he not be aware of other living/active Jedi? Why would he tell Luke that he is the last one?

 

Because he's not all-knowing? If other Jedi are masking their presence in the Force to remain hidden from the Sith, how would Yoda sense them?
I agree that there's a continuity issue that should be addressed, but it's possible that Yoda hasn't sensed the presence of any other Jedi, including Ahsoka and Ezra, since the events of Rebels and decided that they can't count on any of them ever returning. For all he knows, they're gone for good.
Telling Luke that he's the last Jedi might also help him understand the gravity of the situation; that he must follow his destiny.

 

For all intents and purposes, Luke is still the last student of the Jedi. With Yoda and Kenobi dead it now falls on Luke to ensure their teachings survive. Ashoka’s existence during that time frame doesn’t change that, especially when she clearly has no desire to do it.

Yoda does tell him that the force runs strong through his family so it kinda was, no? Plus
Luke’s raw power is the only reason Palpatine was interested in him. Without that interest, Luke and the rebellion dies long before he even gets the chance to meet Palpatine.

It’s a largely insignificant one when none of those Jedi could even hope to do what he did. Which, of course, they couldn’t so it’s a moot point if they were active during that time or not.

Which is great! Except ... Yoda lacks any means to actually get off Dagobath so it’s kind of a moot point. Whoever he finds has to come to him because he has no way to meet them otherwise. I’m not aware of what exactly Yoda can do but if he can’t actually speak to them than it’s all one big moot point.

 

Is this what's happening? I'd gladly take this as an explanation. I have never heard of a Jedi "masking their presence in the Force." Luke cuts himself off from the Force. Is this the same? Certainly, Ahsoka hasn't/didn't cut herself off from The Force. Did she?

Hey, if that's what it turns out to be the explanation, I am fine with it. As you say, it needs to be addressed.

So a fib from Yoda and another "certain point of view" retcon? It still weakens the original narrative and retroactively lessens the actual gravity/danger/peril of the situation.

@ThisIsTheWay

A slight, but important distinction: Being "The Last student of the Jedi" and "The Last Jedi" are two different things. I agree with your assessment that it still falls on Luke to ensure the teaching survives.

Yet, are we sure Ahsoka isn't interested in keeping the Jedi ways alive? She's in the "time for the Jedi to end" state of mind? What evidence do we have of this? She refused to train Grogu, but that was because of the danger inherent to training him specifically because of "attachment issues."

Yeah, The Force is strong in Luke's family. Certainly Obi-Wan was all about training the kid because of it. Yet, Yoda initially flat out rejects training Luke largely because of this familial connection/trait.

As for the Palpatine part, I don't follow. Can you explain it again/rephrase it?

Indeed, Luke defeating The Emperor and saving Vader by using compassion to redeem Anakin was one in a million shot (or divine providence via The Force) that no other Jedi, except maybe a trained Leia, could pull off. Yet, this is not why Luke is trained, nor why the situation is so urgent/perilous.

More importantly, Luke being the "perfect/only/best choice" is something that only occurs in retrospect, it still doesn't fill in the plot hole that I am talking about.

1. Does Yoda lack the means to leave Dagobah?
2. It seemed pretty easy to get Luke to Dagobah. If Yoda is unable, have Obi-Wan tell Ahsoka to go to Dagobah.
3. You aren't aware of what Yoda can do? He can use The Force. Force users (especially those as powerful as Yoda) can communicate across the galaxy. They can communicate through time. The can communicate from a netherworld after they die. They can even astral project.

As I said before, Dagobah is described as being a planet "pure" and "powerful" in The Force. You are telling me Yoda's mojo is not working anymore in this regard?

All of these possibilities contribute to the questions that is now present in the Star Wars narrative by Ahsoka's activity/existence in the OT era and beyond.

 

Not a plot hole at all. It has been repeated multiple times in all the movies, than when the Galaxy fell into darkness, the shroud of the dark side covered everything. And even Yoda was not actively attuned with The Force. There has always been wiggle room with all these feelings through the Force, because it's not binary, it's a spectrum. The fact that Yoda felt Anakin being in danger in the PT, does not mean that he needs to feel and know exactly how many and which Jedi are alive at all times, that is quite the absurd thought.

It makes perfect sense to me and I have no issue at all with Yoda being out of touch with The Force. Besides, he is not even communicating with Kenobi via The Force prior to Kenobi's death. Then Obi Wan appears to him as a Force Ghost. You have made many assumptions, some of which are just not true. The fact that Yoda is on a planet that is a nexus of The Force doesn't mean that it amplifies his ability to "feel" other Jedi in the galaxy, why would that be true? As far as I am concerned there is no plot hole at all. Yoda is wise and powerful, but he is not omniscient, otherwise he would have sensed the plot to destroy the Jedi and the specifics since TPM, or even before, in the decades that Palpatine was rising to power.