TV Discussion The Jedi: Their Roles and Philosophies in Star Wars TV

@jaimestarr I appreciate your well thought out answers, and I think that if we have Ahsoka and Luke shows in the future, that you'll likely begin to have some of the plot points answered. But if you don't, it's simply because, despite our obvious love for SW, it's mostly been written on the go. The upshot of that approach is that we get some fun creative twists along the way, like Leia becoming Luke's sister; the downside is what you're pointing out: the plot consistency is not a strength. In a way though, that inconsistency is also part of the fun, IMO, because it allows us to ponder these things and demand more from the writers -- which is always a good thing.

Personally, I wouldn't mind the whole story being rebooted so we might have a chance to experience a more consistent, well thought out Star Wars. I'll probably be on my deathbed by the time that happens.

We should probably start focusing on Jedi in the Mandalorian, or at least during this time period now, as Chorus suggested. But I'll address Yoda again -- he's a funny character. Sometimes he seems to have the ability to know almost anything, and sometimes he's extremely limited. It all depends on the needs of the writer at the time. It could be that there are some Jedi or Force users he just doesn't have an affinity for, or perhaps the Force and the midichlorians have something to do with these things. Because the Force itself is a bit of a plot device without specific rules, it often operates in an arbitrary, mysterious manner. This is helpful for the writers, but I think it's one of the reasons fans often have good questions that can't be answered.

A part of me is still pretty disappointed in the diminishing story of Luke Skywalker. I really did enjoy the idea that he was singularly important, a truly wise Jedi Master. But recently I've begun to accept the changes, mainly because it is true that it opens up space for new characters to shine during the Mando, post-ROTJ time period. And it's good to move away from a white male savior narrative, and to share this status with a more diverse set of characters. If LFL actually does this, if Ahsoka or others are allowed to appropriate some of Luke's old status, then I'll be enthusiastic about the changes -- even if I always viewed Luke as a progressive male character because of the way he refused to kill his father.

 

I thought I may be the only one. But no, I'm not alone!

Yeah, just wipe it out, all of it. If the Game of Thrones guys were going to do an origin of the Jedi series of movies, then do that. Reboot Star Wars and start there with that...

Anyway, I suppose that's what they could do with Jedi in The Mandalorian, Grogu starts it, and picks up with Rey later on. Or Temiri Blagg, Broom Boy from Last Jedi. Or someone new; preferably that.

It seems that they may be literally following the words of my dude Kylo: "...the Sith, the Jedi… let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you are meant to be."

And Ahsoka may be the last "traditional Jedi" that we see. It's time for the Jedi to die. Long live the Jedi. And The Mandalorian may show us this new kind of Jedi (please; pretty please).

Or, again, The Mandalorian may have no intention to do anything with the Force insofar as the Jedi are concerned. And they were just using the Force to garner attention for the show, because if the child were human and not Force-sensitive, then this show probably wouldn't have the level of interest that it has. So we may have gone from planet to planet looking for a Jedi, then the big production/Force light show with the Seeing stone, and that's it. The first Jedi says no, the second Jedi also says no, or doesn't even show, and that's it.

 

She’s not in a “it’s time for the Jedi to end” state of mind. She’s in a “I’m not a Jedi” state of mind. If she was interested in passing on the ways of the Jedi to others she would make an effort to do so but none of her post ROTS appearances (that I’m aware of) demonstrate her doing so.

He also caves shortly afterwards and trains Luke anyway.

The only reason Luke was in a position to confront the emperor is because Palatine wanted him for his power. If he wasn’t as powerful as he was than Palpatine wouldn’t of bothered to give him the time of day.

And my point is that it’s not a plot hole at all.

Haven’t seen anything that suggests he does. Plus I imagine a swamp makes it mighty difficult to properly keep any ship properly maintained.

Why would Yoda need Obi-Wan to tell Ashoka something if he has the power to search the whole galaxy via the force?

Obviously I meant I don’t know the limits of his power. Feeling somebody’s pain/feelings across the Galaxy is obviously very different from having a full blown conversation.

I’m saying I don’t know the limits of Yoda’s abilities with this particular power. Unless I see him doing it, I can’t assume he’s capable of it just because somebody else might’ve done something similar.

 

This has been repeated multiple times in all of the movies? This is incorrect. Show me where this is stated in any film other than the PT.

The idea "the shroud of the dark side" clouding things is said a handful of times during the prequels. This pertains to Jedi's ability only as it it relates to the Jedi being able to use The Force sense what is going on with the Sith. This is this is how Sidious is able to be under their nose the entire time as The Chancellor. This is why the Jedi are unaware of his take over/revenge plot.

This is simply incorrect and not supported by the films. Even with Darth Sidious obscuring nefarious plot via The Dark Side, Yoda remains highly attuned to the Force. Simply put, Yoda's ability to sense the dark side may be on the fritz, but that is not what the issue it. Yoda's ability to sense/feel/communicate with other Jedi across space and time is repeatedly demonstrated in the Prequels, in The Clone Wars, in Rebels, and in the OT. Do you need examples?

First of all, the fact that Yoda can feel when Anakin (or other Jedi) are having trauma/danger/rage issues/pain clearly indicates that can feel, not only the presence of other Jedi across the galaxy, he can actually feel what specifically kind of emotional state they are in.

Example: When the very first Jedi are killed in Order 66, the movie very obviously shows that Yoda can feel/sense it sharply and intenseluy. When Anakin kills the Sand people in AOTC, Yoda can feel that Skywalker is in "terrible pain."

So, without a doubt Yoda can feel the presence of other Jedi throughout the galaxy this has been demonstrated in several ways several times. I can give you examples and evidence of this as well if you need.

Secondly, if you could refrain from hurling insults my way, I'd appreciate it. I promise I refrain from calling your thoughts/idea pejorative terms as well.

I'm glad that this works for you and it explains things, yet this idea is simply not supported by the films/shows at all. If anything, it's the opposite.

Again, the shroud of the Dark Side you refer to is Sidious's obfuscation and machinations of The Clone Wars/take over plot. It causes the Jedi to not be able to sense him, or his dark side plans. This has nothing to do with limiting Yoda's other powers/abilities. Feel free to provide evidence from the films/shows that proves otherwise.

Yoda already has the ability to "feel" other Jedi. Force users sensing/feeling/commnucating with each other across the galaxy is not some new/unheralded Star Wars convention. It's been there almost from the beginning.

As far as "amplifying" his abilities...go ahead and (re?)watch The Clone Wars Season 6 Episode 11 titled "Voices" and get back to me.

Meanwhile, I leave you with this quote straight from the official Star Wars databank:

"Surrounded by creatures generating the living Force, Yoda learned to connect with the deeper cosmic Force and waited for one who might bring about the return of the Jedi Order."

https://www.starwars.com/databank/dagobah

I appreciate your thoughts and conversation as well. Again, I don't mind the fact that Star Wars is written on the go and is ever evolving....as long as retcons are explained. As of yet, this one hasn't been and it's to the detriment of one the core story points.

Yoda is funny in the sense that he's malleable for the plot as you describe. Believe me, I am not trying to simply hang this entire continuity issue on his words.

Yet, much what Yoda says in in ESB and ROTJ form the heart and soul of the trilogy and the entire saga. If these words/plot points start to be wobbly, untrue, false narrative, or up for interpretation, then it damages some of the core tenets of the OT and the saga.

As far as Jedi in The Mandalorian. It's problematic as of now. The more Jedi they add without explanation, the more strained the saga narrative becomes. It makes The Mandalorian more and more disconnected from the OT narrative. It makes The Mandalorian seem like a separate entity that fits better with the other Star Wars TV series and less so with the Star Wars films.

"I'm not a Jedi" she says.... yet, the show clearly demonstrates that she is. Ahsoka is shown doing everything that a Jedi would do pretty much as they would do it. Ahsoka NOT training Grogu is the most, level headed, sage, Jedi choice she could make.

Well sure. Yet, Luke's enticement to Palpatine is presented as more of something to worry about, and a threat, then a tactical advantage.

I dunno. This was your hypothetical situation in which Yoda maybe couldn't communicate across the galaxy via the Force. You said:

Again, Force Users being able to communicate telepathically across the galaxy is a well established Star Wars convention. It's interesting that, because you've never specifically seen Yoda do it (we have) you think he cannot.

Again, Force Users have been shown to have full blown telepathic conversations across space via The Force on numerous occasions. This isn't a new Star Wars convention. It's well established.

Again, what? We've seen other Force users (specifically Yoda) do this before.

 

I haven’t heard any of this yet sounds interesting

 

Ah yes, the part where because I typed "all" I now have to answer and be put in trial. In any case. The fact that the galaxy fell into darkness when Palpatine took over is a well established theme in Star Wars lore. Multiple sources that support my claim, since you want hard evidence:
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/que...minish-all-of-the-jedis-ability-to-use-the-fo

Apart from that, it makes perfect sense that if there are thousands of vessels of the Force (aka Force users) then the light side of The Force is in balance, and the Jedi can see things clearer. That's why they are starting to get confused and their ability to see in The Force weakens, as the Sith grow stronger. To me this has always been clear, you can disagree if you want, but that doesn't make me wrong.

No, I don't need examples. Yoda in the OT does not communicate with anyone else other than Luke. He does not seem highly attuned to the Force on a galactic level AT ALL to me, and I simply won't ever see it this way just because you claim it with passion.

You did not respond to what I said, but you responded to something which I did not say, which would have been "Yoda cannot sense other Jedi". But I never said that. I said that even though there are specific examples where Yoda can sense a lot of things happening in the galaxy, that does not mean that he can sense every single Jedi in the galaxy, let alone their feelings and thoughts.

He was closer to Anakin than a random Jedi who had a position in the Outer Rim and hadn't even ever met him, because Anakin was supposed to be the Chosen One, so Yoda clearly is far more invested in feeling and reaching out what's happening to Anakin. The conclusion that he should feel that with Ahsoka, an EX-Jedi, is just not supported by anything. It is your assumption. You can give me 100 examples of Yoda feeling what various Jedi feel, it still doesn't prove that he feels ALL of the Jedi, let alone that he is obligated to feel Ahsoka's presence. That to me is a stretch.

How does ANY of this prove or suggest that Yoda must feel Ahsoka's presence if Ahsoka is still alive? It doesn't.
As I said, no plot hole. Maybe this is not plausiable to you, but it's perfectly plausible to me.

 

Jedi options we have from my perspective:

1. I like that Fett is back but for the most part I don't like it when characters are resurrected because it happens too often. I really don't want to see Mace Windu or any other Jedi that are supposed to be dead.

2. I don't think a Jedi from a video game is the answer either. In my opinion I don't think it works for games to be cannon.

3. The only Jedi that remain alive that we know about are Luke, Leia and perhaps Ezra.

4. There could be Jedi that we've never heard of before but wasn't Luke supposed to be the only one left? Wasn't that the whole premise of the original trilogy or could Yoda just simply not sense any others?

5. Based on my points above my guess is that it will be Luke, Leia or Ezra. Luke is the #1 choice because he's known to be actively looking for force sensitives during this time period. Some people don't want this but I think they've done everything right so far with this show the I'm confident he'll work.

 

Lots of speculation about Ezra, in the SW shows I watch.

I'm trying to imagine the kind of energy each Jedi would provide the show. One reason I liked the Quinlan Vos idea is that he seems to fit the show's aesthetic. I'm not sure how an adult Ezra would be handled. Mace also would fit the show's tone. Although I'd like to see Luke show up, I'm not sure how he'd affect the energy of the show. What sort of state of mind and vibe would they portray him with? I like the idea that's portrayed more like Anakin now than he used to be -- prone to anger and fear regarding his attachments. It would help pave the way for ST Luke, and this might actually fit the tone of the show. Or do you go with a more traditional Legends approach where Luke seems wise and in control? Is that the Jedi the show needs?

 

Percentage wise, i'd say

60% Luke - New Republic sniffing around, Luke is canvassing the galaxy for Jedi temples and artifacts when Grogue lights the beacon
30% Ezra - because Filoni is involved and Thrawn is apparently at large
9% Quinlan Vos - MIA after order 66
1% Oppo Rancisis - MIA after order 66
0% Cal or Cere - Respawn probably has creative precedence

 

Not putting you on trial. You made a claim that simply isn't true...this doesn't occur in all Star Wars movies. If you only mean a few or some type that? Pronoun choice can greatly change meaning or a claim.

Yes, it's well established that the galaxy fell into darkness when The Empire took over. Yet, it is NOT established that the Dark Side dampened all of the Jedi powers/abilities during this era.

As for this exchange:

Windu: I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.
Yoda: Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed, the Senate is, multiply, our adversaries will.
(src: Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones)

You forgot, the first (and oh so important) first part of the exchange which gives the dialog it's proper context:

Yoda: Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we did not see.

We already covered this. The Prequels make it clear that the Jedi are blinded by the Dark Side as it pertains Darth Sidious's schemes and plots. That's why they cannot sense that their chancellor is also the Sith Lord. Clearly, the clones fall into this category as they are part of Sidious's evil plot/strategy.

The Jedi inability to sense/see Sidious in DOES NOT preclude the Jedi's other abilities or use in The Force. This simply isn't presented/shown in the films/narrative. If I am mistaken please give me some examples of where their powers/abilities mitigated in other ways...

For example: Yoda can still sense/feel/talk to other Jedi across space and time using the Force. He can sense when Obi-Wan and Anakin are in trauma/emotional turmoil. Yoda can sense when other Jedi die. Importantly, Yoda is even in the dark times able to "level up" in his abilities and communicate with dead Jedi across space and time.

Again, the fact that Sidious/The Dark Side can obfuscate his own plans/schemes from the Jedi, doesn't seem to affect their other Force abilities. I have provided a few examples proving this.

If I am wrong, provide me some examples of how Sidious and "the shroud of the dark side (clouding) everything" nerfs the Jedi's other abilities especially beyond the PT films.

In the OT, Yoda communicates with Obi-Wan (and Anakin*) as well. In this era (the OT films), who else should/would Yoda need to communicate with?

Lastly, you say Yoda isn't highly attuned to the Force? Consider: Yoda dies, becomes a Force ghost, and appears on Endor. Yoda literally transcends death and travels across the galaxy to appear before Luke. Isn't this like THE biggest example of being highly attuned to the Force that there is?

You can believe whatever you want. Claiming that Yoda is not powerful or highly attuned to The Force is a bewildering claim to me.

Yoda is generally (and famously) known as being the most powerful and wise Jedi that ever existed. Even in the OT era. If you go up to a random people on the street and ask them who the most powerful Jedi is, Yoda is likely going to be a fairly common answer.

Don't believe me? You can always get real gutsy and start a poll asking fans here at theforce.net to rank the most powerful Jedi/Force users. I am willing to bet that Yoda would rank extremely high on this poll as well. Point being, you are welcome to your take/opinion, but I think your interpretation of "Yoda not being highly attuned to The Force" is in stark contrast to what is being conveyed onscreen.

*At the end of ROTJ, Yoda is sitting next to Anakin as Force ghosts. I am not sure if they chat or not, but one can reasonably assume that they see each other and can interact. No?

I apologize for that.

It's doesn't mean he cannot. Again, Force users communicating/sensing/feeling other Force users across the galaxy is a long standing, and well established SW convention and there is a myriad of examples of this happening. Yet, you think Yoda is incapable of such things?

You are assuming that Yoda is more invested in Anakin than any other Jedi. That's never established. It's actually contradictory to the story in some way. It's also never established that this is why Yoda can sense/feel what Anakin is going through.

Are you telling me that it's unreasonable to assume that Yoda can/would do the same with Ahsoka?

We are also shown that Yoda can sense when other Jedi are dying/are in pain.
Are you telling me it's outlandish to assume that Yoda would be able to sense the same were Ahsoka to die?

We are shown that other Force Users, less powerful than Yoda, can communicate with each other across the galaxy via The Force.

Are you telling me that this is something that Yoda cannot do with Ahsoka (or other Jedi/Force Users)?

If you are willing to concede that Yoda could sense/feel what 100 different Jedi feel, why is it a stretch at all to assume he can do the same with Ahsoka?

Lastly, I am not saying that it is an established certainty that Yoda can sense every single Jedi in the galaxy.

Given their history and relationship, it is more than reasonable to assume that Yoda'd be able to, at least, sense Ahsoka let alone communicate with her, or sense if she were to die.


Back to this:

From the official Star Wars databank:

"Surrounded by creatures generating the living Force, Yoda learned to connect with the deeper cosmic Force and waited for one who might bring about the return of the Jedi Order."

You said, that Yoda isn't highly attuned Force/no longer powerful....especially in the OT.
You said, Yoda is unable to communicate with/sense/feel Ahsoka because his powers are mitigated by the dark side.
You said, despite it being a planet pure in The Force, Dagobah doesn't increase/amplify Yoda's ability to use The Force.

This quote directly contradicts your statements/theories.
Clearly, Yoda is doing a bit of "leveling up" and increased his connection to The Force because he's on Dagobah. Again, have you not watched The Clone Wars?

 

Maybe the Jedi is Yaddle

 

As far as Ashoka not being a Jedi anymore... she's been gone from the Order for quite some time by the events of Mandalorian. If there was a Jedi Order in the OT, it was not much of one. Any stragglers likely had completely given up the Jedi way and trappings. For all intents and purposes all the survivors had resigned their positions as Jedi Knights. Ashoka happened to have done it earlier. She may have the trappings of a Jedi,use the Force, and act like a Jedi,even moreso than most of the official Jedi did, but again she was not an "official" Jedi Knight anymore. When Yoda tells Luke that after he's gone,the last of the Jedi Luke will be,he means that in the official,Knighted, ranked category,not that no one else out there can use the Force. And even so Luke walks out of there NOT an "official" Jedi Knight. Yoda tells him he will not be a Knight until he confronts Vader again. Then,and only then,a Jedi Knight he will be. The legacy of the Jedi Order given to Luke to take and then pass on with others. No one else is given this because no one else out there is actively trying to carry on or be a Jedi anymore. Luke sought and wanted the mantle. Luke being the "last" Jedi makes sense because everyone lese had abandoned the role. Luke embraced the role.

As someone stated above, there are no indications of her wanting to or even really attempting to pass on her knowledge and training to anyone else . Hell,she has Grogu right there and she refuses to train him. So she may act like a Jedi,and do Jedi things, but I feel she doesn't acknowledge herself as a Jedi anymore nor want to be represented as such.

And as far as Luke,and Leia, being the "only" hopes.... Yoda and Kenobi knew that to get to Vader,their best shot was his offspring. Sure maybe they could've communed with and got other former Jedi Order 66 survivors to come forward and help. But they knew the only way to get to Vader,and the Emperor ,was with Anakin's children. Vader was the key, and bringing random Order 66 survivors or even other Force sensitives out there would not have gained the "in" to directly get at the Emperor like Luke and Leia ould. So in essence they were the "only" hopes to take down the Sith Lords.

 

This is a fantastic post. And I agree with it totally. Ahsoka is not a Jedi, and there is no 'plot hole' surrounding the issue of her being still alive. And this post explains why, perfectly.

 

Yada yada yaddle.

 

I like this a lot. It's the best explanation of I have seen yet. However, a few issues/questions:

Is this what Yoda means? He's talking about an "officially sanctioned/ranked" member of the Jedi order and not Force users? This seems like a fine interpretation, but one that is up for debate. I don't think this distinction has been made clear ever. As I have said, right now it seems like a technicality. Really, in the OT era their is no more Jedi Order. Therefore, no one is an "official/ranked/knighted" member of the order...it doesn't exist.

Exactly. So what's with Yoda and Obi-Wan's emphasis on Luke (or to a lesser extent Leia) being "...our last/only hope" if their are, potentially, a handful of other "not official" Jedi out and active in the galaxy? Again, at this point in the OT, Luke is no more an official Jedi Knight than Ahsoka is.

This is a great point. However, I think it needs to be made clear that, at some point, Ahsoka refused to help Obi-Wan and Yoda against Vader and The Emperor during this era. A point needs to be made about why she is not involved.

Again, I am open to a lot of reasons. Yet, so far, we have been given none. If there are other former "no longer official" Jedi out there that refuse to answer the call/choose to remain hidden, this needs to be addressed as well as this is NOT presented as what the situation is.

Yes and her reasoning is very similar to Yoda's initial refusal to train Luke as well. Ahsoka knows what happened to Anakin and why. To me, this underscores her wisdom as a Jedi more than anything.

The same can be said of Ben Kenobi in Episode 4. He says he was "...once a Jedi Knight.." in past tense. As in, he no longer consider himself to be one.

This idea that the Skywalker twins were part of some master long term strategy Yoda had to bring down Vader was always problematic to me.

For one, Yoda flat out refuses to train Luke and has to be convinced by Obi-Wan to do it. Yoda remarks that Luke (and thus Leia) is "too old" to begin training. So, if this was some kind of plan to defeat Vader/The Emperor, why wait? Why let 20 years lapse and only refuse to train the kid? What kind of plan is this? Again, this has always been a bit of an inconsistency.

 

I’m not sure why a new Jedi would be a problem. Grogu himself is a Jedi who survived the purge. What’s one more? It gives the show flexibility to do what they want with the character, and it lets TPTB design a new Jedi especially made to fit with this show. I would love to see their take on what a surviving Jedi would look like based on the OT aesthetic.

 

Someone out of the left field would be Yaddle.
Her faith was never definitively set in the Canon. Ordinaryly is said she disappeared between TPM and AOTC.
So maybe she left the order because she didn't agree with the Council latest decisions and kept in the hide all this time.
Or maybe she's Grogu's mother and left the order because she could not avoid attachment to him, so she believed would be better if she was not around whiles his was being trained.
Being of the same species of Grogu ( maybe related to him) would be a a more palatable reason to split Mando and Grogu.

 

Does the timeframe align?

 

At this point, a previously introduced Jedi wouldn't even be fan service. We've already bent the rules a little when Yoda claimed Luke was the last of the Jedi. I think it would be expected and preferable to re-introduce an established Jedi. That being said, the characters that would create the most interesting dynamics based on their history are Luke and Mace.

To be fair, this is based mostly on Boba Fett. Mando has no history with the Jedi; he's simply told recently that they were the enemies of his clan in ancient times. Though to him, this is nothing personal. Boba Fett on the other hand still harbors that hatred carried down through the ages. He's experienced it firsthand with Mace slaying his father.

Against Luke, there's probably a lot to explore since their last encounter ended with Boba almost dying. Plus, Boba Fett was once described as "Vader's right hand man." Meanwhile Boba's hostility towards Mace is imminent for obvious reasons. I'm betting that the Mandalorians' alliance with the Jedi is going to be jeopardized by Boba's old ways, no matter how much he's changed since he's returned.

 

I don’t think an official time line has been set out for that scene

 

Luke's narration makes it explicit that the "stare" is about Leia being troubled by her premonition and Luke sensing her anxiety.
Linking Grogu to that moment wouldn't make much sense, IMO.

 

Not a huge fan of the idea. Feels like forced linking -- and not the kind of Forced linking we might enjoy.