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The Mandalorian Jedi in the Mandalorian

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by The Chalk Jedi, Nov 28, 2020.

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  1. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    The canon currently states that Ben is Luke's first student (after Leia), and this is ten years after 5 ABY, which is the period we're at the beginning of now. He may have cool adventures during this period, but he won't train anyone unless they change canon, and he won't be in the large kind of conflicts that Legends' fans enjoyed.

    Luke training students other than Ben will begin sometime between 15 ABY-20 ABY, and most of these students are destined to be killed. So my excitement level for that series of stories is low.

    So what the new canon has given Jedi and Luke fans is a huge gap of time that used to be full of big conflicts, like the Thrawn trilogy. Since Luke won't be available for these sorts of things, it would be fun to have other characters step in to fill in the gap. The only thing that's really needed is some open-mindedness from fans -- the willingness to recognize that not all Force users are official Jedi, like Ahsoka.

    It's pretty clear that LFL and Filoni plan to have some fun in this period, and I'm looking forward to it. I wish Luke could participate in these events, but that possibility doesn't seem to exist. I'll take what I can get, and I care very little about aligning with the poorly planned ST.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  2. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Doesn’t mean Luke can’t, like, talk to him for a second.
     
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  3. Master Cado Afu

    Master Cado Afu Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2020
    I just thought of this when I read your post...

    How about they just do a series and call it, I don't know... Star Wars. :cool:

    Do like... 48 episode seasons and just put it all together.

    I wish that they would do that.

    Think of it this way...

    We have different factions of Mandalorians during this era, different factions of Jedi may be cool too. And now would be an ideal time, a perfect time, because it's era of rebuilding.

    What would an "extremist" faction of Jedi look like?

    Attachment being forbidden is the proper teaching...
    Master Yoda was correct. Anakin Skywalker was prophesied to bring balance to the Force. His actions were willed by the Force. The teachings weren't wrong though. And this may not be an extreme thought. Rather a sound one.

    And all knowledge of previous Jedi thought may be lost (probably is), new Jedi may have emerged with new thought, a new way, a new path.

    A more balanced Jedi thought may have emerged with a new leader and a very small following.

    Luke's way is the traditional way, other ways could be interesting too.

    Luke had what, a dozen students, is that what the Kylo Ren Marvel series said? Whatever the number, say there's 50 Jedi left (or those who are Force sensitive), or 100. Some of them may not agree with Luke and the old ways.

    And you get around the sequel trilogy by saying that Luke may have gathered only the ones who agreed with his way.

    They need to do a Jedi series. Call it The Jedi. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  4. aewhistory

    aewhistory Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2019
    Maybe I’m out of touch but is 69 now middle aged? If so, then at 47 why don’t I feel young any longer? And why the hell do I wake up to piss three times a night!?


    As far as I am concerned ALL of Star Wars takes place in a different continuity, reality, and universe from the ST.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  5. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    I’m glad Ahsoka brought up the question of attachment, and that she decided to not train Grogu because of his strong attachment to the Mandalorian. What’s interesting is that she clarified that not training a Jedi means that their powers will fade in time.

    If we consider the sequels, Luke felt he made a mistake training Ben. And we know Ben had a strong attachment to his parents. Should Luke have opted for not training Ben and letting his power fade with time?
     
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  6. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    With regards to Grogu training...I do not think Din and Grogu should be separated...but a guest appearance by a Jedi (Cal Kestis or some other existing character...not Luke, Leia, Ahsoka or Ezra) for a 3 episode arc.

    1st episode: Din and Grogu meet Random Jedi during a mission and they stay together for Grogu to learn more about his abilities. And have RJ know Grogu's name and remember interacting with him in the Temple.

    2nd episode: They then go to a planet with no sentient population but a lot of plant and animal life and strong with the Force. Have it stated that they are there for 6-8 weeks with RJ teaching Grogu the basic youngling exercise to maintain and enhance his Force connection and teach Jedi philosophy. And also train with Din sparring lightsaber to Beskar spear....and talking. This could be a way to Din to learn about the Jedi and the Force....and for the audience to learn more about The Way. Also a way for some character growth for Din to look at "Is being Mandalorian defined by the helmet on his head or what is in his heart?"

    3rd episode: After visions that RJ has...they have to leave and deal with a former Inquisitor who has set him/herself up on some world as ruler and has Death Troopers as his/her enforcers. All goes well, DTs are all killed as well as the Inquisitor. They part ways with Grogu a little better trained and not likely to Force Choke someone....unless they really have it coming.
     
  7. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    Seems like Baby Grogu would need a couple decades of training? Because he ages so slowly and is a baby?

    By the way, love how Filoni reminds the audience that it takes a lot of training for a Jedi to use their powers. This helps to separate the Jedi on this show from the tricks in the ST.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  8. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    In ROTJ, with his dying breaths, Yoda said: "Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be."

    Let me say this plainly: To have other Jedi running around during or immediately after ROTJ other than Luke Skywalker is a HUGE retcon. I think it's valid to question if doing so undermines/alters/damages Luke Skywalker's story.

    On one hand, I am not opposed to it. I love Rebels. I love Ahsoka, and I want her to be running around having adventures with her badass lightsabers. I want Star Wars to continue beyond ROTJ, the OT, and the Skywalker saga.

    On the other hand, these "not an official Jedi" technicalities/work arounds do water down the OT and Luke's story. We can say Ahsoka is not "technically" a Jedi, but she is. Onscreen, she's just as much of a Jedi as Luke ever was.

    We can say that Luke maintains his importance because he was really the only one to be able to reach Vader because of the familial bond, but that's not how the OT frames it. This is not what Obi-Wan and Yoda are saying/doing/preparing for. Again, it's a retcon.

    Some fans complain about the ST altering/wrecking/changing Luke's success/story/role in the OT, yet a strong argument can be made that having even a handful of other Force Users/Jedi alive and well in this era does the same....maybe even to a greater extent.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  9. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Spokesman of SWTV star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Last can be singular or plural.
     
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  10. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Again, a work around or technicality. If Yoda meant it plural, it makes no sense in the context of the OT and it weakens the stakes for ROTJ and Luke's story.
     
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  11. aewhistory

    aewhistory Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2019
    It can but that changes depending on context. If I say, “are these the last cokes?” then we know there are at least two cans of coke and it is time for me to get some more (reminder to myself, get some Diet Coke). The reason why we know “last” is plural is because of the word “these” which indicates more than one.

    In the case of what Yoda there could be some leeway if you interpret it in this manner: “after you drink that coke the last of the coke will be in the fridge.” That means there is at least one, maybe more but maybe not. But if you remove that and say, “after you drink that coke the last coke will be in the fridge” then you are almost surely talking about singular.

    The problems arises with all of this because Yoda says, “the last of the Jedi YOU will be.” I can’t think of a way around that at the moment, so for me that is clearly singular.... and a plot problem. But I’m open to being convinced otherwise.
     
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  12. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Spokesman of SWTV star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 16, 2008
    There being a dozen other Jedi around doesn't make Luke's mission less perilous. Either way, Yoda's impressing to him that he's the best option to take out the Sith. Hell, Luke's met at least one other Jedi so he knows he's not the very last Jedi, but he does realize he's in a better position than any of the remaining Jedi to head straight for the belly of the beast.

    Also, there's literally no other Jedi with Luke's specific connection to Vader. Vader has two living relatives, and Luke is the only one who's a trained Jedi. Without that connection any other Jedi goes to their death if they try to take out Vader and Palpatine.
     
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  13. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Let's be honest though. Is Yoda really being ambiguous in this regard? I can definitely shoehorn in my own interpretation/fansplanation to allow the existance and wiggle room for other Jedi. Yet, in 1983 Luke was IT. Yoda was imploring him to pass on what he learned to "another Skywalker" because they were the only two left. To alter/change re-interpret or re-contextualize it weakens Luke's story and lessens the stakes at play in ROTJ and the saga in general.
     
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  14. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 24, 2019
    Why exactly does it weaken Luke’s story or lessen the stakes during ROT?

    Throwing in a few extra force users alive during that time period doesn’t change that he was the final Hail Mary that not just worked but succeeded beyond anybody’s wildest dreams. No other force user had a chance of pulling off what he did at Endor. Not one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
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  15. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    It doesn't make it less perilous for Luke, but it does lower the stakes for the galaxy and the good guys and the audience.
    Before, if Luke was killed or turned it was game over for the Jedi and the galactic freedom fighters. Now, we have Darth Vader's badass former apprentice running around liberating worlds with her white bladed lightsabers. We (the audience rooting for the good guys) have a sense that all is not lost if Luke dies/turns.


    @ThisIsTheWay

    First of all, you say a few extra force users like it's not big deal.

    In the OT, the Jedi were so incredibly rare that people thought they were myth and didn't really believe in them. In several occasions Yoda and Obi-Wan (two of the wisest Jedi) both impressed upon us (the audience) that the Jedi were "all but extinct." They were wiped out and that Luke is "their only hope" and "the last Jedi." Again, Yoda is dying and tell sLuke he is all that remains aka "The Last Jedi."

    Secondly, an argument can be made that Ahsoka is as much of a Jedi as Luke Skywalker is, if not more so. If you think about it, she simply has more experience/more time/more training. Ahsoka ran/fought/lived side by side with the best of the best at the height of the Jedi order in the Old Republic during The Clone Wars. She is Anakin Skywalker's Padawan. Big time credentials.

    Bottom Line: In ROTJ, Obi-Wan tell Luke, "Then, the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope." With other Jedi out there, this is simply not true.

    Luke being the best option is not as dramatic or perilous as Luke being the only option. See the difference? Plus, an argument could be made that Ahsoka might be a better option than Luke to face Vader.

    Other than Obi-Wan and Yoda, what other Jedi?

    Obi-Wan and Yoda aren't training Luke because he is Vader's son. They aren't betting on a familial connection or on Vader's redemption. In fact, it's the opposite. They think that this makes things MORE dangerous for Luke. They both think Luke's compassion for Vader, his connection to Leia, are both threats and increase the chances of Luke failing.

    Initially, Yoda, flat out refuses to train Luke because he's too much like Anakin. Luke being Vader's son is not some strategic advantage in the eyes of Yoda and Obi-Wan.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  16. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    I would argue that Luke being the last Jedi in this period is irrelevant now because this was only meaningful in the sense of him restarting the Jedi Order. But he never does this successfully. His Jedi are destroyed, and Rey ends up not really needing training, learns from old Jedi texts, and has much more extensive training from Leia in fact. Basically Luke was not actually necessary to restart the Jedi, and the ST shows us this clearly; even Yoda tells us there is another -- i.e., Luke is not special. So his importance to the story is much less than it once was -- his real importance is just being Anakin's son who can change his heart.

    So if Luke isn't needed to restart the Jedi, then who cares how many Force users or Jedi are active post-ROTJ? That's my feeling on it. It feels absurd to continue to pretend Luke is needed to start a Jedi Order at this point. Things have been retconned, and fans should consider accepting that reality.

    Personally, I'd like to see Ahsoka start her own Order, her own Jedi faction, that functions independently from Luke's and tackles different problems. She still has a chance of succeeding, so I'm more invested in her as a character.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  17. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I totally hear you. Yet, consider this. Nowhere is Return of the Jedi is it stated (or even really suggested) that Luke would restart the (or begin his own) Jedi Order. As he is dying, Yoda tells Luke to pass on what he has learned and mentions Leia. Luke tells Leia she'll learn to use this power too.

    That said, I certainly expected Luke to start his Jedi order. However, when I really analyze it, that expectation it comes from the events/ideas put forth by old Extended Universe.

    Also, keep in mind that, before the Prequels, we didn't have a real sense of what the Jedi Order was, how it operated, where it was based, or what it looked/felt like. Pre-1999, a lot of fans assumed that the Jedi were like King Arthurs Knights of the Round Table, while others thought Jedi might be like wandering Samurai or Ronin.

    Point being, I don't think the OT (ROTJ) really put forth the idea that Luke was necessarily to restart the Jedi Order.*

    *Did we get any indication in the OT that there were even any other Force sensitive/potential Jedi left in the galaxy? Again, I go back to the OT idea that the the Jedi are so wiped out/scare that even worldly/well traveled adventurous people like Han Solo don't even know about the Force. Certainly The Mandalorian doesn't know about the Jedi/The Force until finding Grogu.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  18. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Let's not forget that Luke blew up the first Death Star. And if he hadn't, the Rebellion would have been destroyed (mostly, I assume) and the Empire might still be reigning as I type this. That cements him as incredibly important, no matter what happened afterwards.
     
  19. bstnsx704

    bstnsx704 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 11, 2013
    As it stands Ezra seems to be entirely cut off from the Force, so I would buy that Yoda and Kenobi had no clue at all that he was alive. And it isn't like he's "around" in any way that matters anyways. He's stranded in a part of the Galaxy that might as well not even exist as far as anyone is concerned.

    So that really just leaves Ahsoka as a wildcard playing against Yoda's statement there. It is a retcon, of course, but in universe we also know that Ahsoka wasn't able to so much as chip away at Vader and she would have died fighting him had Ezra not intervened, so even if Yoda is aware that she is alive, which he most certainly is, she isn't really an option to throw against Vader again and she seems to have no desire at all to further the Jedi Order with new students.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
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  20. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Spokesman of SWTV star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Verla
     
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  21. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval TV Screaming Service / FFS! star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    When Yoda said to Luke, "the *last* of the Jedi will *you* be" he was looking through the Force and talking to 17 different people around the Galaxy.
     
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  22. Master Cado Afu

    Master Cado Afu Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2020
    Technically, it would be retcon of a retcon, and a retcon by the maker himself.

    In A New Hope Obi-Wan tells Luke, "Now the Jedi are all but extinct."

    So does a retcon of a retcon cancel one another out? :cool:
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
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  23. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    So then why be concerned if Luke is the only Jedi during this period or not? You're just making my argument for me.

    The concern about Luke's specialness, prior to the ST, had to do with his importance of passing Jedi knowledge on. In Legends, they added the aspects to this that many fans enjoyed: Luke was also special because he was Anakin's son. The Skywalker's were seen as an especially powerful bloodline due to Anakin's status as Chosen One, or before that concept, simply that Luke was the son of the powerful Darth Vader. Legends ran with this logic and made Luke a very powerful figure, but also part of this characterization that was much more important in my view was that he had overcome the darkside and was a kind of ideal Master in this regard -- even if as teacher his students didn't always succeed.

    However, now we know that 1) Luke wasn't even required to restart a Jedi Order, but simply pass off what he'd learned, which is a much smaller requirement. 2) Luke never became a huge figure as Legends portrayed him. Not only did he not become powerful, he also didn't master the darkside as ROTJ seems to suggest -- that right there is one of the major retcons IMO, as the ending of ROTJ very clearly established Luke had grown and acquired significant wisdom and control. 3) Even ROTJ downplays Luke's significance by saying there is "another," and revealing Luke's sister as this other. The ST develops this concept and we see Leia complete Rey's training. So even ROTJ doesn't say that Luke is really the "last." That film has Yoda contradict the idea almost immediately afterward. Hence, fans make too much of Yoda's comment here and overvalue its narrative significance. 4) Yoda is very wise, but the PT, TCW, and OT show us many times how he is flawed. So even his claims about Luke and Leia being the "last" should not be seen as an omniscient narrative voice that aligns with the story's facts. 5) Luke's actions that result in the death of the Emperor have been retconned, so their significance has also been reduced. The Sith were not destroyed that day, just slowed down until the ST. Even the Empire is not actually destroyed.

    So taking all of this in, we are forced to the conclusion that Luke, while still being an important figure, is not nearly as significant as he was before. It follows that if he's not as significant that there's no longer any reason to demand he be the only Jedi figure during this period. He's already accomplished the two things he really had to do: 1) defeat Darth Vader and 2) train Leia. Anything else he does after this is not necessary to the ST story. Leia was always there to train Rey, and Rey could have found the Jedi texts on her own -- although even that's not necessary, according to TLJ and Yoda.

    It's difficult to talk about someone becoming less significant while maintaining they are still important. Luke is clearly important, but his necessity is not what it was. As I pointed out above, the ST and ROTJ show us that Leia could have trained Rey just fine. And Luke's Jedi Order was not needed. What was necessary for Luke to do was to change Anakin's heart and to train Leia (passing on what he'd learned). After these events, he's not really necessary. For example, Rey was already powerful enough to save the Resistance in TLJ, so she was available to do so if Luke hadn't stepped up.

    If Luke hadn't existed in ANH, Kenobi could have trained Leia to destroy the Death Star. So Luke's necessity as a character is lower than it once seemed. He's still important, but not absolutely necessary.

    It's not necessarily a retcon unless we are forced to accept a specific character as aligning perfectly with the omniscient narrator's voice. And nothing in the OT, PT, or TCW suggests that Yoda has perfect omniscient knowledge. Yoda also doesn't really view Luke as the last Jedi anyway in ROTJ -- he sees Leia, the "other," as another viable option.

    Fans should give up this demand that Luke be the only Jedi during this period because the movies themselves have never really claimed this.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  24. Master Cado Afu

    Master Cado Afu Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2020
    Yeah, this is how I made The Last Jedi work for me.

    Luke had a destiny, but he was never prophesied to do anything. His destiny was to be in place in order to fulfill the prohecy of his father, to bring balance to the Force.

    So his job was done. Like you say, he did what he was supposed to do.

    For him to then go off and try to rebuild Jedi was not the will of the Force. He probably wasn't supposed to do that. Luke may have had delusions of grandeur. The Force then manifested it's will in Kylo Ren. At least this is how I made it work.

    Yeah, I'm one of those weird people who really dug The Last Jedi. I know a lot of people didn't, even Mark Hamill didn't. I didn't at first either, then I watched it a second and third time, and it was like, wow, this is really good. Like, really good. Like top two good, depending on my mood. Some days A New Hope is my favorite, and some days it's The Last Jedi. I really only didn't like two parts of the movie: Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder. Rian Johnson could have just had him look it for a couple of beats, then hand it back to Rey, and then continue the scene as is. And yeah, the Leia in space thing. Other than that, my god was it good to me. Kylo Ren was the best thing in the movie I thought, and Luke was the second.

    Alas, the overall reaction was what it was.

    This is pretty much how I see it too.

    Ultimately, the farmboy from Tatooine had a hero's journey for the ages. He did good.

    Disney+ needs to do a Luke Skywalker series.
     
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  25. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I think we are arguing different things. It seems as if we also see Luke's role/significance in the OT differently.

    As I said, if Luke is not the only Jedi during this era, the stakes in the OT are lessened.

    In ESB, Obi-Wan says of Luke, "That boy is out last hope."
    You know what Yoda doesn't say? "No he is one of handful of possible others."

    Having Ahsoka, Ezra, and any other Jedi alive and well in the galaxy during this era mitigates the peril, danger, and urgency of Luke's journey and the role of the Jedi in the Galactic Civil War.

    It also makes no sense as far as Yoda is concerned and creates plot holes.

    Consider:
    When Yoda tells Luke that he is the last Jedi, he means it. When Yoda tells Obi-Wan, "...No there is another," it is singular. We, the audience, assumes that Yoda, for the most part, is wise, venerable, powerful, good, and a reliable narrator.

    This little guy is the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. Maybe ever. From across space and time, Yoda can sense when a single Jedi is under traumatic stress, he can sense a Jedi in conflict, he can sense a Jedi dying, communicate with dead Jedi, etc. We know he has communicated with Ezra and has a relatively close history with Ahsoka. I assume he trained her as a youngling, etc.

    We are now supposed to believe that Yoda cannot sense/feel/communicate with ANY of these other Jedi in the galaxy? At all? Again, it's a big plot hole.

    As I said, it also alters the OT in a way that mitigates the danger/peril/drama. Luke is no longer the only hope, nor the last Jedi. The OT is changed.

    Luke Skywalker's specialness in the Original Trilogy was NOT about some idea that he'd restart the Jedi order. This was never even mentioned in the OT. Luke's arc was about him being A New Hope and becoming The Last Jedi. Luke was told to pass on the Jedi/family tradition to Leia.
    Of course they did.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020