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The Mandalorian Jedi in the Mandalorian

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by The Chalk Jedi, Nov 28, 2020.

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  1. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    I disagree. Other Jedi could not reach Anakin the way he did. Leia could, sure, but most could not. So his specialness has nothing to do with being singular, it has to do with his family connection. And singularity isn't possible due to Leia. Does her existence lessen the OT stakes for you?


    I don't agree because even Ahsoka couldn't reach Vader when she faced him in Rebels. None of these Jedi would have the effect on Anakin that Luke or Leia could.

    In addition, as we saw in Rebels, these characters have plenty to do without being directly involved in the parts of the Galactic War Luke is. Some of them were focused on Thrawn, and since he's not mentioned in the OT, it has little effect on "tension."


    Reliable narrator is different from all-knowing. And the PT, OT, and TCW all make it clear Yoda is limited in his knowledge. Not to mention this basic limit, we also know that the Jedi during this period have been weakened due to the Emperor and the dark side. So even if Yoda were all-knowing, which he is not, the plot gives good reason why his knowledge is limited.

    You're perfectly in the right to feel this way, but nevertheless, other Jedi did exist during the OT. I think Ahsoka not considering herself a Jedi should help you to swallow this a bit. But the key for me is to understand that none of these other Jedi, except for Leia, would have been able to reach Anakin, and so the tension remains.

    Luke's specialness in the OT is one thing, but afterward it's another. Luke is special in the OT because as Anakin's son, he can reach him ways others can't. But even this specialness isn't unique: Leia also exists. So Luke was a new hope, and once they identify Leia, she also becomes a hope. The OT itself suggests this when Luke says that she too will learn the Jedi ways. So ROTJ never suggests Luke will be the last Jedi -- and even the title of The Last Jedi is not to be taken literally. We know Leia exists and has been trained, and we have Rey as well.

    Importantly, Luke passes on the Jedi tradition to Leia, as I mentioned in my previous post, shortly after ROTJ. That means that following this it no longer makes sense to require that Luke be the only Jedi left.

    Fans interpreted it this way, but the film itself through Yoda tells us there is at least one option other than Luke. And we know that there was more than that: Ahsoka, for instance. And Grogu.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  2. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    You misunderstand me. I am not discounting the fact that Luke is able to leverage his familial connection into Vader/Anakin's redemption. That IS special and one of the best parts of Star Wars. Yet, this is only realized in retrospect.

    Yoda and Obi-Wan certainly believe Luke (and Leia*) are the galaxy's last/best/and only hope. However it's NOT because Vader is the father. As I said before, both Yoda and Obi-Wan think that this is a liability and puts Luke (and Leia) in greater danger.

    *I consider the Skywalker twins as a singularity since Yoda considers them both as "their last hope." I didn't mention her because, in the context of the OT, Leia isn't trained as a Jedi, nor capable of facing Vader/The Emperor as such.

    Again, Yoda and Obi-Wan's plan is not about "reaching Vader" via family connections. It's about defeating Vader and The Emperor. From all of Yoda and Obi-Wan's conversations in ESB and ROTJ, Ahsoka actually fits the bill for this.

    Consider: In ESB Yoda states, "Stopped they must be, on this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor."

    If there are other Jedi in the galaxy, like Ahsoka, liberating worlds, fighting agents of the Empire, Yoda wouldn't need Luke. Having other Jedi removes some of the desperation/danger/gravitas to this entire thing.

    Training the son of Vader, who is just like a young Vader, is dangerous. Yoda says this repeatedly. He also mentions Luke is too old to be trained. Yet, Luke is (was) all they have at this point. Again, Yoda's strategy/hope is NOT contingent on, nor in any way involves, Luke turning Vader good. Yoda sees Luke being related to Vader as a detriment to the training/mission. Yoda says as much. He trains Luke out of desperation and at the behest of Obi-Wan. The same Obi-Wan that believes that Anakin is gone and Vader is all that remains.

    Bottom line, for what Yoda and Obi-Wan are striving for, Ahsoka* would be a better candidate. The fact that she's out there and exists as an active Jedi doing heroic, badass, Jedi stuff kinda negates the need or urgency of training Luke.

    *This is an entire speculative argument that I don't really care to get into. However, a HUGE case can be made for this. Ahsoka is more experienced than Luke, she's (possibly) less susceptible to Vader's mind games, and she was trained in the traditional Jedi way at the correct pace/age, etc.

    Certainly. If we watch the OT without considering things like Ahsoka, Thrawn, Ezra and the events of Rebels it has little effect on the OT. That's certainly a way to go. One could do the same in regards to the Prequels and Sequels and their effects on the OT too. Yet, these things are all now canon, and they all and do retcon the OT in different ways. At the very least is muddles what used to be a straight forward narrative.

    Again, I am all for more Star Wars and expanding the universe. However, when viewing Empire Strikes Back, Luke is being trained to be The Last Jedi. One does now have to ignore the fact that there are, at least, a handful of other actual trained Jedi actively fighting The Empire in galaxy. Again, it fundamentally alters what is being told/shown/explained to us onscreen.

    Which plot are you talking about? Empire Strikes Back shows us that Yoda is the GOAT when it comes to being a Jedi. It doesn't hedge his powers, knowledge, and wisdom like you are describing. Yoda is not all knowing. Yet, as I said, he can sense other Jedi across the galaxy and through space and time. Can he not? I mean, does he not talk to Ezra in Rebels? Am I misremembering that?

    Also, if you agree that Yoda is, in fact, a reliable narrator how do you reconcile the fact that he, Obi-Wan, and the movie itself is telling us that Luke and Leia are all that's left of the Jedi and "our last hope."

    In The Clone Wars Episode "Voices", Yoda travels for the first time to Dagobah. It is declared to be as incredibly strong in the Force and described as is "one of the purest places in the galaxy" for The Force. If anything, this planet amplifies his abilities/senses/powers.

    Consider all this, and I'll ask you again:

    Are we really supposed to believe that Yoda, living on a planet that is incredibly strong/pure with The Force, does not know about and/or cannot sense, feel, communicate with, reach out to ANY of the surviving Jedi including Ahsoka?

    Do you really think Yoda simply doesn't know what he's talking about in the OT? Because, if that's the case, this is a whole different conversation about whether we think Yoda is/isn't a reliable narrator.

    I am sorry, this simply was not the case until very very recently. Watch the films again. There is nothing in the OT to suggest that other Jedi existed. The films explain quite the opposite in fact.

    After Yoda died, Luke was The Last Jedi. That's it. That's what the movies told us quite explicitly. Anything beyond that is a retcon and it changes the OT from what it was alters the OT and Luke's role/place in it.

    Now, I am sure the EU retconned this, but the EU was always kind of "soft canon" at best.

    Once Ahsoka was onscreen in live action in The Mandalorian this was made absolutely canon.
    As I said, I am all for it, but it's a big ass retcon without a doubt. Simply put, the fact that Ahsoka is alive and doing the Jedi thing during and after the OT raises all sorts of questions of continuity that simply weren't there until 11/27/20.


    Again, you have me mistaken. I love Ahsoka. I was over the moon to see her in live action. However, Ms. Tano "not considering herself a Jedi" is a technicality and a weak one. She is every bit a Jedi that Luke was in the OT, if not more. That is shown quite plainly in the first few seconds of The Mandalorian Chapter 13: The Jedi. Also, the title is on point.

    Also, I think it's a HIGHLY debatable position to take that Ahsoka "could not reach Anakin." We simply don't know that. Ahsoka didn't have nearly the screen time/intneraction with Vader that Luke did. It's speculative at best, and it's an entirely separate geeky hypothetical conversation to have.

    Furthermore, whether she could/could not reach Anakin is besides the point, which is:

    Why didn't Yoda know about/reach out to/communicate with/rally/ or tell Luke about any of the surviving Jedi including Ahsoka?

    Answer: Because prior to this new canon there weren't any other surviving Jedi other than Yoda, Obi-Wan, Luke/Leia.

    Again, I'm mostly cool with it. However, it does create plot holes, mitigate the gravitas/desperation of the OT, and take some of the shine off of Luke (and Leia) as The Last Jedi.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
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  3. GregMcP

    GregMcP Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2015
    Of course the canon may be still canon.
    Ezra may be dead.

    Maybe Luke really is The Last Jedi. Ahsoka just hasn't found that out yet.
    A tragic moment in a series episode to come some day.
     
  4. TheCloneWarsForever

    TheCloneWarsForever Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2018
    For all we know, Ahsoka was still on Malachor during the OT which means Yoda wouldn't know if she was alive or available. But even if she was, her choices during the Dark Times made it clear she wasn't about to become a one-Togruta army slaying down the Emperor with her whitesabers. She was through with war and politics. She chose to be a Fulcrum agent which is a position that can be (and was) filled by non-Jedi. Post-ROTJ, she's a lone wolf Samurai - going around and helping those in need but showing no interest so far in starting a new Jedi Order. Her story during the Clone Wars was a cautionary about the failure of institutions and how corruption can seep in when the Jedi start becoming too institutionalized. IOW, there are lots of reasons already why Yoda couldn't think of her as his next new hope. She doesn't answer to him, she follows her own path.
     
  5. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I am not talking about afterward. I am talking about the fact that events we witnessed/saw/experienced in the OT have been altered by the retcon that there actually were other Jedi alive and active during this era. The fundamentally changes how ESB and Return of the Jedi means in regards to Luke.

    Again, this is off topic. I am not suggesting that Luke had to remain The Last Jedi forever. Simply that, during the OT, it was down Yoda, Obi-Wan, Luke, and Leia. That has been changed and retconned. When you watch ESB now, you know Ahsoka (and however many other Jedi) are out in the galaxy doing Jedi things. It affects the OT and continuity. According to the new canon, Luke and Leia are no longer really the only viable option to face Vader and the Emperor in the OT.

    Yeah fans interpreted it that way because it's LITERALLY WHAT IS STATED/SHOWN IN THE FILMS.

    When Yoda spoke of another (in both ESB and ROTJ) it is revealed that he was speaking of Leia. Not Ahsoka, not Grogu, not Ezra, not Kyle Katarn, not Kyp Durron, nor any other newly retconned into existence Jedi.

    Again, Yoda says it clear as day as he is dying:

    "Luke, when gone am I... the last of the Jedi will you be. Luke, the Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned, Luke...there is another Skywalker....."


    So, when Yoda tells Luke he's the Last Jedi, Yoda is either:

    A. lying
    B. doesn't know what he is talking about
    C. stopped being able to sense other Jedi throughout space and time
    D. is bad at counting
    or
    E. has been retconned

    Can we please stop pretending that it's not a retcon? Clearly it is. Clearly it alters the OT from what it was. Clearly we can both create head canon to kinda/sorta make it still work.

    Again, I love Ahsoka and am happy to see her in live action.

    Yet, I maintain this point: The more Jedi that turn out to be actually be alive and doing Jedi things during the OT era, the less vital it makes Luke and Leia. The less urgent it makes Luke's training/journey/etc, the less desperate it makes Obi-Wan and Yoda, the less perilous it makes circumstances for the galaxy during the OT, and the less impactful the meaning of "Return of the Jedi" becomes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
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  6. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I agree that Luke’s necessity after ROTJ is diminished. Indeed, his heroic journey essentially ends with ROTJ. With a lapse and a personal atonement occurring at the conclusion of TLJ.
     
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  7. BalanceOfTheForce

    BalanceOfTheForce Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2016
    There's no way Grogu didn't call a Jedi right? I don't think that sequence will be for nothing.

    I think the Jedi will either show up at the same time as Mando to save Grogu or they will be the cliffhanger in the final scene.
     
  8. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2015
    I think at this point they're building a Magnificent Seven crew for the big finale.
    Din, Fennec, Boba, Mayfeld (Bill Burr as a recurring character? lol) the Jedi and 2 others. Maybe the New Republic pilots? I think Cara and Greef will stay on their jurisdiction of Nevarro. Of course it doesn't have to be seven.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  9. Aah Fisto

    Aah Fisto Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 30, 2020
    It’s reminding me of season 4 of rebels. When they went back to Lothal they had a real mix and rag tag group
     
  10. Disciple-of-Tython

    Disciple-of-Tython Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2006
    I predict Luke to the rescue or a brief scene at the very end of the season teasing S3.
     
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  11. Master Cado Afu

    Master Cado Afu Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2020
    My guess is cliffhanger.

    And hopefully it's not for nothing, but you never know.

    Someone you would think would show up. Who though and how is going to be the fun part.

    And taking a peek behind the scenes, I don't believe any more big names, or names of any size, are rumored to appear this season. So a glimpse maybe for this season, and a reveal perhaps for next.

    More and more I'm liking what some are saying, Quinlan Vos, Bob Marley "Dreadlock Rasta" Jedi. Anyone is fine by me though. Just do something with it and do it well.
     
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  12. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Bringing in another Purge survivor for Grogu to encounter would just raise more questions, of where was he/she during the Galactic Civil War? Why didn't he join the Rebellion, why not encounter Luke?

    Another purge survivor is best explored post RoTJ in the realm of not considering oneself a Jedi and not wanting to return to that way of life (which means no training others in the ways of the force). So it wouldn't make much sense for one to answer Grogu's call.

    Ezra probably won't because he is "lost" in some form. Whether that he can't come because of Thrawn, gave up his jedihood, or both.

    Cal? Probably dead. Poor guy still has 14 more years until the end of the dark times, and Vader knows he is alive.......

    If said it before, and ill say it again. If a Jedi does show up to Grogus call, it needs to be Luke. He is/should be the only in this era (so far) that identifies as a Jedi Knight. Doesn't mean Grogu will now stay with Luke, but Luke is the best candidate if we get a real Jedi in the finale of the season.
     
  13. Master Cado Afu

    Master Cado Afu Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2020
    That is a good point, didn't think of that.

    And the case for Luke, like I said in another thread in reference to this thread... :cool:

    No, but since there's no big names left rumored for this season you're kind of in the lurch for a Luke. Unless, of course, you have a fan cast favorite Luke currently working for another Disney owned company like Marvel.

    You can sneak a Sebastian Stan into The Volume for a quick cameo and no one would be any the wiser. They can get real like that.

    Or if they chose not to partake in any cloak and dagger shenanigans, you can maybe get away without having Luke in person. A representative of Luke, perhaps.

    So instead of doing a "I'm Luke Skywalker. I'm here to rescue you" with Luke in person.

    You can maybe go with, "At last, I've found him. Hello, I'm [Random Jedi], I've been searching for this little one. I must send word to Luke Skywalker at once. We've found him... We've found him." Fade to black. The Mandalorian theme. That's a wrap for season two. Internet near breaking point.

    Or, y'know, Jon Favreau is a professional, so he would come up with better lines.

    EDIT: Although, he would keep the name [Random Jedi], and with the brackets, because Jon Favreau is just raw like that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  14. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Grogu spent a lot of time in that energy field and only Djarin was there. So Djarin could be a Force sensitive and their symbiotic bond is typical Force & destiny and Master and Apprentice stuff of Lucas. Plus we have Boba and Fennec showing up to help save the day, become friends and all kinda works out stuff typical of the films and such.

    Ahsoka could always change her mind and train Grogu too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
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  15. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval TV Screaming Service / FFS! star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    As mad as the entire premise of him showing up may be, Luke is actually the one character who could simultaneously show up as the most mindblowing exclamation point at the end of a search for a Jedi... while also seamlessly leaving Grogu with Din, since his timeline has him not currently focused on training any Jedi. It shouldn't work and yet it is possibly the easiest fit in the world. The excuse for Grogu meeting a great Jedi and yet staying with Din is already written into what everyone knows of Luke's current status in the timeline.

    It would also provide a brilliant tension since Boba will probably still be with Team Mando at the finale and his last memory before landing in the Sarlaac was of aiming at Luke.
     
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  16. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Due to how the episode played out we are definitely getting a Jedi
     
  17. bstnsx704

    bstnsx704 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 11, 2013
    Well, he seems to have made some kind of communication, and I'm sure we'll be made privy to what that communication was at some point before the season ends, but that in no way guarantees that we will be seeing whoever was on the other end actually appear in the show.
     
  18. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 2, 2015
    I wonder if the Jedi we get is going to die? I can see the season ending sadly like that, but with the classic Star Wars glimpse of hope at the end. The Jedi dies for Grogue and Din to escape the dire situation they find themselves in for Episode 16. I can especially see this happening if we get a well established Jedi character whose story was left open ended like Quinlan Vos.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  19. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    That would be pretty weird especially with the child in danger
     
  20. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 19, 2016
    It's likely the Mando will return to Tython after the child is saved and Gideon is defeated.
    Though its possible the Jedi will have came and went by then, leaving us with a cliff hanger of Mando tracking the clues to find them next season.
     
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  21. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I like that the three showing up to a path of destruction and finding out it was caused by a Jedi
     
  22. Disciple-of-Tython

    Disciple-of-Tython Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 12, 2006
    [​IMG]I’ve been predicting Luke or Kyle Katarn.

    But, just had a thought, what if....

    [​IMG]

    [face_thinking]
     
  23. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I still think it could be Quinlan
     
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  24. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 19, 2016
    I'm hoping its Luke or nobody.
     
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  25. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    By nobody do you mean like no one shows up or a new Jedi