ST John Boyega (Finn) in the ST

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Also it’s cool how she and kylo pass finn and rose in the elevator as they are sneaking around.

 

No TLJ does not know they are the most important people in each other’s lives. This scene is great, it’s the best scene in TLJ for a reason, but it doesn’t fit with the rest of the story. RJ could not escape the set up from TFA but he tried like hell to. This scene comes after RJ had Rey ignore what Kylo did to Finn entirely, ignore Finn’s health. Someone said in the thread that she wants to join Kylo because of Finn. That is flat out untrue. The film goes out of its way to tell the audience that Rey has no idea what’s happening with the Resistance because they can’t communicate with them. Rey bonds emotionally with Finn’s mutilator before she knows the Resistance is getting massacred by Kylo. I believe that was intentional because Rey would have looked even worse if she joined him knowing that. Meanwhile, Rey didn’t beg Kylo on behalf of the lives being lost, including Finn and Kylo’s mother, during their moment together as the transports were getting blown up. She made no emotional appeal for their souls. She just angsted at Kylo for disappointing her, saying “please don’t go this way” or something to that affect that was focused on Kylo’s bad choice, not her concern for the people he’s killing.

When a movie wants to frame a connection between characters that are separated, the characters are motivated by each other explicitly. Luke in ESB is motivated by Han and Leia, motivated by saving them, not their killer. Since IW came up, much ado was made about why Cap and IM can’t talk. It’s emotional and character-driven. In AotC, Anakin separates from Obi, and they reunite because Anakin is explicitly trying to save him.

Bonds between characters aren’t shown through lip service, as here. They’re shown through motivations, through development, through loyalty. After this gorgeous scene, Finn and Rey are immediately separated again and we get the totally shallow and unnecessary meet cute with Poe and Rey instead of any capitalizing on the emotion of this reunion. That’s not how a movie makes a relationship the heart of the story, which FinnRey (whether romantic or familial, it doesn’t matter) 100% were set up to be in TFA.

 

I still think that half of us watched a different movie than the rest of you lmao

 

Perhaps, but I’m referencing actual scenes with specificity directly from the movie. If you watched a movie without those scenes, then yes we watched different movies.

 

Rey doesn't even bother to bring up that Kylo maimed Finn while the latter was trying to protect her FROM Kylo, not once. She doesn't call Kylo out on it, and the injury itself has ZERO bearing on the plot. Heck the VERY first thing that Rian does with Finn, is make him the butt of not one, not two, but THREE pratfall gags, jokes in a row.

Here's an idea, why not have Finn save Rey, or at least help. That'd be a nice showcase of their "bond." More than her cuddling up to the guy who nearly killed him TWO DAYS before anyway.

 

I’m moving my reply here because it’s OT over there.

You said he “makes or breaks plot at every turn” (or something, sorry that’s from memory) but you didn’t show where that took place. The things you mentioned didn’t make or break plot at all. In fact, those events had shockingly null impact on the larger plot. I can’t think of a parallel with a character having so much screen time and yet having so little impact on plot. Meanwhile, you were arguing this not in a vacuum, but in comparison to Poe. You failed to show how any of this making or breaking the plot was greater in magnitude to Poe going against orders to destroy a fleet killer all by himself, conspiring against Holdo, leading a mutiny, or leading the “assault” on Crait.

Finn’s “growth” leads to Finn proving (again, because it can’t be said enough, for the third time) that he is willing to die for what he believes in. Well we already knew that. We’ve known it since the first 15 minutes of TFA. Meanwhile, RJ has helpfully explained that Finn’s suicide mission would be a failure and he would have died for nothing, so his growth led to Finn trying to die for no reason.

Where did I say that? Are you arguing with someone else and did you get me confused with them? Are you vaguely recalling a past conversation we’ve had that is causing you to misstate my opinions on this matter as a way of strawmanning me here?

 

The fact that EVERY other sacrificial death in the film (Luke, Holdo, heck even Paige Tico who was a glorified cameo) is treated as heroic or inspiring, yet Finn's attempts to do the same is treated as him being "wrong" and he gets lectured to yet again is VERY telling.

 

Finn was a “dummie” for thinking this was the right thing to do, a sentiment RJ felt was necessary to defend in interviews by confirming that it was factually correct that he was being dumb.

 

Yet apparently Paige, Holdo, and Luke weren't "dummies" for doing the exact same thing that he tried to do. The fact that Rian singled him out in particular for such treatment is, very telling unfortunately.

 

What is the larger plot? The Resistance staying alive? Because it was the betrayal during his mission that caused thousands of people to die. That's influencing the plot. Finn volunteering to go on the mission to save the Resistance in the first place? That's influencing the plot. Finn fighting people on Snoke's ship? That's influencing the plot. Finn motivating Resistance soldiers to fight back on Crait? That's influencing the plot. Finn fighting with the Resistance on Crait? That's influencing the plot.

If that was the case, then Finn's arc was completed in the first 15 minutes of TFA. The development comes in what he believes in. Finn in TFA would not willingly give his life for the entire Resistance. The Finn at the end of TFA or the beginning of TLJ would not say, "No, we have to FIGHT." The Finn at the end of the TFA and the beginning of TLJ would not rush onto the battlefield by himself to help Luke Skywalker. The thing that you're mentioning about Finn is a character trait, not a display of growth. Finn's morality is still confused until the end of TLJ.

I am not strawmanning you at all, but I may have just misunderstood. What scenes are you referring to where Rose is condescending Finn?

If you're talking about the Canto Bight scene where Finn asks Rose why she hates Canto Bight so much and she goes into her backstory while discussing her experience with the First Order, then yeah that's what I'm referring to because that's not her condescending him at all.

I mean, unlike those sacrifices...Finn's would have been ineffective and unnecessary because it wouldn't have worked. But I actually do agree that film is a little confused about what it's stance is on sacrificing yourself for a cause. I don't think it has much to do with RJ hating Finn but I do think it was a slight misstep.

 

Not so much dumb as it was the wrong thing to do.

It also doubles back to Poe's lesson about when to retreat versus charging head on.

On Crait, it was the first time Finn's made that mistake. Poe dealt with it earlier in the film, and now he's learned from it.

Finn wasn't so much as dumb as that he was now at Poe's starting point in the film.

 

DJ’s betrayal was able to occur because Poe broadcast their plans to Finn behind enemy lines in front of DJ. It’s still because of Poe. Finn’s relevance was in being there, on Poe’s command.

Finn’s mission didn’t impact anything besides the above betrayal due to Poe. Just because it happened doesn’t mean it moved the greater plot. There’s a reason even positive reviews of this movie openly discussed how unnecessary this entire segment was.

Finn fighting people on the ship? Huh? That was irrelevant to everything besides Finn and Rose surviving. It impacted nothing of the greater plot, and in the context of the greater plot, it actually made no sense that those STs were rushing to escape pods in order to not die after the Holdo maneuver, which was actually important to the greater plot and came from Poe’s story.

Finn fighting on Crait was no different than anyone else fighting on Crait. Ultimately, none of this is arguing how Finn’s stuff is the B Plot over Poe’s story, which to me is very very clearly the B Plot.

Yeah exactly. RJ didn’t develop Finn beyond where he was in TFA when it comes to whether he’s willing to die for what he believes in.

But you’re right. The development that did occur is the Resistance’s cause joined the list of things Finn cares for, and therefore is willing to die for. Finn joining the Resistance is the growth he had. Could have been taken care of in the first ten minutes to allow him to actually develop in a meaningful way, but yes that is what he got, as RJ pretended that Finn being willing to die for a cause was new territory. If JJ acts like Finn being willing to die for Poe in IX is groundbreaking, I’m going to pull my hair out. No really, Finn is already a selfless hero. He’s also entitled to have his own beliefs and his own value system as far as what he wants to devote his life to.

Maybe you should ask before presuming things.

1. Rose lecturing him about being a “deserter” was condescending and also a lie the script tells (keep an eye out for that because Rose is the vessel RJ uses to condescend this character via the script itself a lot);
2. Rose calls him a “dummie” for not understanding why she prevented him from destroying the giant canon that will mass murder all their friends;
3. Rose’s snide remark on the Supremacy about how “of course” Finn knows where the escape pods are;
4. It’s not enough that Finn agrees that freeing the space horses and destroying private property was a victory, Rose has to say freeing that one last space horse was what made it worth, in contrast to Finn saying it was already worth it (seriously, she argues with everything).
5. To the scene you brought up and misstated my views on - that was set up as teaching Finn a lesson because he was naively clueless about bad people on the casino world and Rose’s backstory was used to set him straight about his naive stupidity. This again is a script problem more than a Rose problem, but still, Rose wasn’t opening up for the sake of bonding with a friend. She opened up to the “deserter” that escaped a life of slavery yesterday to lecture him about her horrible background to illustrate how stupid and wrong he is for looking at Canto Bite the way he is. She isn’t kind toward his naivety (which makes no sense given TFA and Maz’s Castle, but I digress). She acts irritated and, you know, condescending.

At the end of the day, the theme in these scenes is the same. Finn is stupid, and Rose is setting him straight. I’m actually reasonably sure I’m forgetting something else, but googling Rose scenes doesn’t turn up a whole lot. Clearly they don’t generate the buzz of other characters’ moments.

At the start of the film, Poe took a huge risk to successfully destroy a fleet killer.

At the end of the film, Finn tried to die for nothing.

These things are not the same. Yes it is dumb to try and die for nothing, and appropriately, Rose called him a "dummie" for it. It was also unnecessary for that to be the case, because from watching, I and all of my family thought Finn would have succeeded but for Rose's intervention.

 

Again Finn's sacrifice would only have been "ineffectual," (and BTW the film does a terrible job of conveying that on top of it because no one that I've talked outside of internet boards who saw the movie thought that "it wouldn't have worked" no one) because Rian WROTE IT THAT WAY!! Of all the characters who do this in the film, Finn is the ONLY one that he CHOSE to make it "ineffectual" for. He couldn't let Finn accomplish freaking anything useful in this film, not even the grand heroic death.

Again that exactly the problem, so using it as a defense doesn't work.

 

Poe didn't command Finn to go anywhere. He's not part of the Resistance. Finn (and Rose) volunteered to go on a mission. Poe giving them the resources to do so.

Finn’s mission didn’t impact anything besides the above betrayal due to Poe. Just because it happened doesn’t mean it moved the greater plot. There’s a reason even positive reviews of this movie openly discussed how unnecessary this entire segment was.[/QUOTE]
What? Canto Bight or the betrayal? Because overall it's not unnecessary because it makes things worse for everyone.

If that's the case, then Rey fighting people on the ship was unnecessary as well considering nothing happened. Snoke died, but we learn nothing about him and the Resistance is still being killed off anyway even after Rey's escape. No one switches sides, Kylo Ren is still evil, and people are still dying. Finn taking out Phasma is at least a development because of her ranking in the FO.

Finn fighting with the Resistance after inspiring them to fight back is influencing the plot.

Finn finally joining the main heroes officially is a huge development. Also, there's a difference between being willing to die and actively staring certain death in the face. Finn is a fighter, but him actually doing something while knowing that he's going to die is new territory for him. Running toward Kylo Ren to fight isn't the same as him running a speeder into a cannon.

Lol that was rude as hell.

1. We've debated about this so many times so I'm gonna skip this one.
2. Meh, I just thought it was Rose being cute.
3. Lol, yeah I agree with this one but I thought it was funny.
4. That was not her being condescending. She was agreeing with him and said "Now it was worth it" with a smile.
5. I'm having trouble with the word "stupidity" here. Finn was not being stupid and she's simply informing him about a planet that they haven't even spent 10 minutes on. If we're talking about the script than the point was for Finn to be experience the grays within the galaxy, not for him to lectured on child slavery.

I mean, I was actually agreeing with you but okay.

 

So you don't believe people would scratch their heads if Finn's interactions with Rose were replaced with Poe or Rey?

Rey gets tased by Rose while trying to escape the ship. Rey is told she's selfish traitor by Rose, etc?? On top of that, my favorite piece of dialog he wrote for Finn, just to set the tone:
ROSE: But... Wait, but who knows where the breaker room is on the Star Destroyer?
FINN: I'm the guy who used to mop it. If I can get us there....
ROSE: I can shut their tracker down.

The entire interaction between them like she's Han's surrogate in mentoring Finn. If they wanted a suitable mentor in that way Maz would have been a better choice.

 

But Finn's not on the path to be a retired pirate bartender owner.

Poe, like Leia is on the path to be leader of the Resistance.

Rey is already on the path to be the last Jedi like Luke.

Finn is now on the path as a dedicated Resistance member, like Rose.

This is why Rey, Finn and Poe were paired with who they were with in TLJ.

Even Kylo, like Snoke was on the Darkside path to be Supreme Leader in TLJ.

 

RJ didn’t like Finn and given pre film leaks it seemed like he didn’t really like John boyega either; but he was contractually obligated to write Finn in the film so he gave him a pointless fetch quest to get him out of the way while he got back to the story he actually cared about: the epic love story between the Neo-Nazi and the Homeless Chick.

 

Uh okay. I consider the difference between ordering them and providing resources to be splitting hairs. It’s because of Poe.

The entire Canto Bite subplot accomplished nothing besides DJ’s betrayal, which only happened because Poe is an idiot with dangerous classified intel. But moreover, none of that needed to happen. All DJ’s betrayal did is alert them to look for cloaked ships. Why they don’t do that automatically in a situation like this is totally inexplicable. It’s just another example of nothing making sense in this plot.

I mean, I have been arguing that the PG battle was completely pointless since day 1. That battle had zero stakes besides Rey and Kylo’s lives, which I personally never felt were in even a tiny bit of danger. Yeah Rey’s entire mission amounted to nothing. Besides Snoke’s death, nothing happened. This is not an uncommon criticism.

And no, I still disagree that Finn taking out Phasma accomplished anything. She was a totally wasted character that served no purpose.

“Inspiring” them to go on a dumb pointless suicide run that Poe ordered just for Poe to then order them to abandon after they started dying for no reason? Not really. Finn’s speech was about how of course people would come because Leia. He was wrong.

Finn finally at the end of the second film of a trilogy joins the heroes? Yay... like I said, that development could and should have happened early in TLJ.

Finn stares certain death in the face twice in TFA. That story has been told. Yes running toward Kylo Ren is absolutely the same exact thing. It’s the same emotional beat for the same character at the same place in the film.

Me? You’re the one that weirdly presumed my thoughts on something. Maybe don’t do that?

So... agree to disagree. You don’t think she’s condescending to him, I think she displays condescension in essentially every single one of their conversations.

And for the record, Finn and Rose’s relationship was not developed enough for Rose to be “cute” while teasingly deriding him. That’s something close friends that know and trust each other play. Not strangers with primarily antagonistic interactions.

 

The problem is, Finn's story is basically his TFA story beat for beat. And the culmination of it is essentially the same as well, only him facing off with Kylo despite knowing full well that he couldn't win was FAR more emotionally effective and was a far more satisfying conclusion to his arc. With TLJ, Rian basically has him running in circles and not progressing at all (and no, I do not buy that he'd be more likely to "join the heroes" here than he was by the end of TFA, the film did a TERRIBLE job of selling that). And when it takes you 2/3 of the way through your trilogy just to get him to "join the heroes," that's poor story structure.

And the fact that even many people who like the movie overall will still say that they don't like Finn's story, or at least that it's one of the weaker elements of the film, is further proof of this.

 

That may very well be what he was trying to do, but can you see why RJ may not take Finn's character seriously in the larger scheme of things? Again, I think he failed to execute what you are saying, but yes, he paired Rey with a Jedi, Poe with the leader of the resistance, but Finn is already a trained Storm trooper. He doesn't need to learn resistance soldiering from Rose. DJ is a hacker/scoundrel who sells to the highest bidder. Finn's integrity was solidified in the opening moments of TFA DJ isn't teaching Finn to be a good person. He already is. If it's neither of those things and it's to simply show Finn that all people aren't nice, that's really weak sauce. Why not make BDT's character a Cassian type or Special Ops-Sicario guy and be a part of a team infiltrating the Supremacy. Saying that after 2 films Finn is finally ready to fight for the Resistance is snails pace growth. It's definitely a major reason that people who want to like Finn are extremely frustrated with the way he's written.

 

Unfortunately that's how he was presented in TFA. Always trying to get out of dodge. And even when he went to Starkiller for Rey, he lied about it to the Resistance and even told Han "I'm just here for Rey."

That's why TLJ's Finn time had to be used to get him on the same track as the other heroes.

If Finn was presented differently in TFA, we wouldn't be in this case.

 

That's how he started, but he faced down Kylo. He didn't run, he stood his ground and fought him with a weapon he had little experience with. That wouldn't be cause for a talented writer to begin evolving the character? Or do you believe he's not a lead, but more of a static character?

 

He's a dynamic character. He fought Kylo to save Rey. He made that clear.

But really he just held off Kylo so Rey could have time to "level up." And since Rey's just going to keep getting more powerful, she doesn't need Finn to attempt to save her.

So Finn had to get new goals in this story or else he'd be left behind. Hence, why his TLJ story was about getting him to believe and accept the Resistance cause.

They needed to justify Finn wanting to stay within the story besides being Rey's companion. I know fans like Ahsokasolo wanted more Finn-Rey interaction in TLJ. But we needed a movie to showcase Finn's need to be in this story beyond being Rey's sidekick. Especially going into Episode IX, where they'll be on the same team.

 

You're right, I hadn't really thought about it.

Finn's arc in TLJ just seems like a less effective rehash of progress he really already made in TFA.