ST Journey Through the Netherworld of the Force

I believe the netherworlds of the force is a hades like concept that George Lucas has been kicking around for awhile, and the idea I believe makes its first appearance as far back as the ROTJ novel and early drafts where Obi-Wan and Yoda appear to emerge from the netherworld as flesh and blood jedi to battle the emperor, and that originally Yoda saves Anakin's soul from being annihilated after he was killed and that's why he can appear as a force ghost.

Since the sequel trilogy was always meant to be the most spiritual of the trilogies, does anyone think we will get to view this netherworld? Not necessarily force ghosts appearing on the physical plane, but a bizarre and strange and hard to comprehend spiritual netherworld where dreams and history collide.

I thought some of the most interesting parts from a narrative perspective were Rey's visions, so my thought was that she (or perhaps Luke or maybe both of them?) would ultimately journey into this realm. From a storytelling perspective, this could allow long gone characters to return in various forms, and even unused concepts like the half anakin / half vader apparation. Qui Gon Jinn being around. The idea being that the world would be more David Lynch (the original choice for directing ROTJ I might I add)-like (for you Twin Peaks fans, think the Lodges).

One idea that I had would be that Kylo and the Knights of Ren would also enter in search of some great power. Kylo would be accompanied by Luke through his journey, who would taunt him (and haunt him), while Rey would be accompanied by a young Obi-Wan Kenobi (a fan favorite and stand-in for Leia). I think part of this journey would be through history, so we can fill in some of the gaps that people feel the need to see (like Kylo and Luke's early relationship or maybe young Rey).

Has this been discussed before? Is there a general consensus on whether this concept will be explored?

P.S. I did a search and didn't see any topics on this specific idea if it already exists if the mods could merge
me in I'd appreciate it.

 

After reading your post, I certainly want to
I don't have anything substantial to add at the moment, I just think the idea has enormous potential. It might even bridge the narratives of GL's saga and this trilogy in a way that makes up for what I currently see as a clear disconnection.

Do I expect to see the Netherworld, though?
Nope.

 

I feel this is Filoni territory

 

Was this concept explored in the Clone Wars?

 

Well... The Mortis arc took place in a mystical realm that seemed to transcend time and space and allowed the protagonists to see certain characters and future events that they would otherwise not have seen. It hasn't been explained what exactly it was, but there was definitely some cosmic thing going on there.

 

I think it's too late to explore any deeper Force lore now. If they had the First Jedi Temple as a major location in TLJ and didn't explore it then, I doubt they're going to now.

 

I wouldn't say that. After Luke's stunt on Crait, we could be in for some... unexpected stuff.
Maybe not something as "extreme" as a journey into the Netherworld, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if EpIX touches on more ethereal subjects.

 

I've brought this idea up before at least twice in the rumors/speculation threads of two ST movies, and a few of us had limited discussions about the possibility. I'm not sure we ever got into speculative details on it as you have here, so YES! A thread devoted to this subject is well warranted I would think, especially since Episode IX has a higher probability to involve the Force-netherworld/dimension than any Star Wars film yet.

 

I don't think it will be explored in the films. More likely in animation, where we've already gotten part of the story.

 

Would love (I mean LOVE) to see it in Episode IX.

But JJ and Kathleen haven't got the guts to go there. IMO.

 

There seems to be a concerted effort to now explore the Force and what it actually means to become one with it, Rebels and before it TCW have been pushing towards it and TLJ has touched upon it. Mortis and Ezra's journey into the Force has opened up so many possibilities to explore, even the return of characters such as Anakin, Obi-Wan and even Palpatine.

 

I hope no character who has died ever returns from death. That would look like a cheap concession to make the fans who can't accept their favourite character dying happy.

So yep, let the story move forward please.

 

I always thought of the Neather World of the Force was like returning to the fold.The Force is apart of you and as you grow an learn you give back to the Force when you die.A Cosmic Oneness if you will.

 

I'd love to see some sort of exploration of the Netherworld of the Force in IX.

There is something lurking in the background of the story of the ST that hasn't ( yet ) been addressed onscreen, and may potentially allow for an insight into some of these more mystical ideas.

Now, it might be something that they've decided to keep for novels, or animation, but it seems to be so significant to both the turn of events immediately following ROTJ, and the set up for the the corruption of Ben Solo, and rise of the First Order ( via the character of Snoke ), that I don't feel it likely that it'll be completely ignored by the films.

In short, the mother of all dark side vergences is somewhere in the Unknown Regions. And it has, and very possibly will continue to, directly impact upon the conflict between the forces of light and darkness.

The TLJ novelisation expands upon the mystery of the 'source of the dark side', first introduced in the Aftermath books.

In the Aftermath series, we learn that Sidious believed the source of his power, in fact the source of the dark side itself, resided in the Unknown Regions. It called to him, a call that he believed only he could hear - Vader didn't hear it.

Spoiler

"Papatine’s true identity as Darth Sidious, heir to the Sith, had been an even greater secret than the contingency. The Empire’s explorations into the unknown regions had served both aspects of it’s ruler. For Sidious knew that the galaxy’s knowledge of the Force had come from those long abandoned, half legendary star systems and that great truths awaited rediscovery among them. Truths that Snoke had learned and made to serve his own ends."

Spoiler

We now know that Snoke wasn't the dark presence in the UR, but like Palpatine, merely a seeker of it. Finding it and accessing it's power, or knowledge, also seems to have enabled him to enact his plot to corrupt Ben Solo, and destroy the Skywalkers and the New Republic. It also likely explains the level of power we see him demonstrate in TLJ, and perhaps how he was able to exert such an influence upon young Ben, whilst apparently busy taking control of the FO in the Unknown Regions - a variation on his ability to read and bridge minds, perhaps.

In the Aftermath books, during the period immediately following Palpatine's death at the Battle of Endor, people across the GFFA began receiving dreams and visions of the Sith, prompting them to become members of the Acolytes of the Beyond, a group devoted to the dark side and the Sith.

"He, like her, like all of them, has had the dreams. He’s received the visions of the darkness: dreams of Sith, both ancient and recently living, plaguing his nights. And he loves it. He loves being a part of something. The darkness hasn’t taken him—he has given himself to it."

"Other lightsabers, they’ve sacrificed to the Sith beyond—those who have died and who wait beyond the veil and whose orders the Acolytes follow. (Those ancient specters are the ones who give them the dreams, after all.) But now they’ve begun to keep the lightsabers. They have those and other artifacts, and only the most esteemed of the Acolytes are allowed to hold, use, and keep them."

These people believed they were serving the spectres of dead Sith Lords. But, according to canon, and as evidenced by Yoda's journey to Moraband in TCW, the Sith aren't able to achieve the ability retain their identities in the Force, after death, in the way that Obi-Wan, Yoda, Qui-Gon, etc. can.

So if these visions weren't being caused the spirit of a dead Sith Lord, what was causing them? I think we have a clue in the scene in TFA, where Kylo speaks to the remains of his Grandfather's charred helmet. He seems to genuinely believe that the helmet can show him visions of the dark side.

Now, sure this could be Snoke messing with Kylo's head, but it parallels the Force vision that Rey receives when she comes into contact with the Skywalker saber, and is echoed by Tashu in the Aftermath books, and by the Marvel Lando comicbook series, wherein it's revealed that Sith artefacts contain and emit the dark side, long after the death of their Sith owners. Essentially, these objects absorb the dark side that their Sith owners generate, becoming mini storehouse, or batteries of dark side energy.

"Masks have power. Some are worn in the grave. Others worn in life. This, like the others in my collection, has gathered the darkness of the living Force!" - Yupe Tashu

This source of the dark side, could therefore be such an artefact, but I'd say it's more likely to be something along the lines of the Cave of Evil on Dagobah, a place soaked in the dark side, but on a much, much grander scale, maybe a dark side equivalent of Ahch-To, or perhaps a very powerful corrupted kyber crystal. My reasoning here is that this source has actively called out to Sidious, and presumably, Snoke ( since Snoke was the one to find it ), and seems to have been responsible for the dreams and visions of the dark side that compelled the Acolytes of the Beyond to action. Sure, this could be the 'will of the dark side', but recent canon has revealed that Kyber crystals are not only sentient, and 'call out' through the Force, but are perhaps the most potent amplifiers of the Force, something which led to the ancient Sith using them as weapons of destruction. They also, as in the case of Galen Erso ( in Catalyst ) seem to have the ability to speak through dreams.

"Long ago in forgotten times, when the Sith and Jedi fought for control of the galaxy, weapons there were, of unimaginable power. Always at their heart, a kyber crystal was." - Yoda ( TCW)

Pure speculation, but I also see an easy route to addressing this story element in IX.

Snoke's power seems to have come through the knowledge he gained from this 'source'. He seems to have been able to use this knowledge of the Force to reach out to young Ben Solo's mind across a huge distance. Later, he was able to read Kylo's mind, and create a bridge between the minds of Rey and Kylo. He was, in short, tremendously powerful, and it all seems to have come from what he found in the Unknown Regions.

Rey slammed shut the bridge between her and Kylo's minds at the end of TLJ, but I don't think Kylo is willing to leave that door shut.

Kylo knows what Snoke could do. He's experienced the power of Snoke's telepathic abilities first hand, seemingly since he was a boy. Kylo is power hungry, now that he is Supreme Leader, I don't think he'd allow his former boss's secrets to die with him.

Whether it's because he wants to use the power of this source of the dark side to corrupt Rey's mind from afar, as Snoke did to him, or just to torture her, I think Kylo would spend a great deal of energy investigating the secret of Snoke's power.

 

I can totally see this happening, and it's exactly where I'd take it. I'd have Rey, Kylo and Luke (and maybe other past Jedi) in conflict on the spirit plane while the Resistance and FO go at it hammer and tongs on the physical plane. I think this is all going to tie in with Snoke and the Unknown Regions - and I think Kylo is going to pick up on Snoke's discoveries there in regards the "dark power", as Mungo said. All of this is really easy to introduce in IX.

 

Exactly. I think once you understand that there was a secret behind Snoke's power ( and this secret is much more significant than who he was, or where he came from ), then it becomes apparent that there's a pretty easy way to both explore what happened between Snoke and young Kylo, and what Kylo intends to do next, particularly in respect to Rey.

 

Yeah. I think this has been part of the backstory for a long time. It would tie everything together nicely in terms of character and backstory and provide a great narrative thrust for the final episode that could allow for high stakes.

If a Skywalker is need to unlock the full power of whatever lies in the Unknown Regions, then I can see Kylo seeing it as his destiny to do so, whilst giving Rey and Luke something to stop in a way only Jedi could and also giving us something new.

 

Yes, and there's also the possibility that, since the 'Source' seems to have been actively calling dark siders to it, then whatever it is, there's something of a parasitical nature to it. It seems to need them, so it may take as much as it gives ( which would fit our understanding of how the dark side works ), and it that sense, there's probably no greater prize for it than someone with the full potential of the Skywalker bloodline.

 

Yeah, something that seduces you then destroys you would be in keeping with what we have so far, and would fit right in with Kylo's own vanity - thinking he alone could control it (he can't, etc, etc). You could unleash some kind of dark side apocaplyse, bring in all that ancient tomb stuff. I think it could be a lot of fun.

 

a grand restart of the GFFA maybe?No goverment,no jedi and no sith.

 

Yeah. That was my thought too.
This stuff is Filoni's game. He likes a bit of Mysticism.

 

Was Filonis interpretation well received? Is it something worth exploring in what is presumed to be the final chapter?


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No. I do not think it should be explored at all. There are some parts of the force that need to be left to the viewers imagination.

 

Well I agree with that in terms of leaving some things open to imagination. My thought is make the netherworld like Luke’s vision and Rey’s visions, a strange disorienting place that feels familiar and strange and where the story doesn’t play out in a linear normal way. I just think from a story telling perspective some things are still missing, and a flashback of one scene in last Jedi and TFA suggests there is more to come


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i'm calling it.Some how it will happen with Rey killing Kylos body while Luke kills his astro self.