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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Kathleen Kennedy Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Darth Chiznuk , Sep 21, 2017.

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  1. Luke02

    Luke02 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2002
    No matter what Rey does, she will never be as strong/courageous of a character as Princess Leia was in the OT. Kennedy IMHO just does not understand that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
    melkor834, Jedha, AhsokaSolo and 4 others like this.
  2. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Almost every movie I have ever been to has had people walk out for various reasons during the course of it. Lots are probably going to the restroom. Lots are probably getting more snacks. Lots probably have to take a call. Unless we aren't paying a hoot of attention to the movie and are solely paying attention to who comes and goes I doubt any of us would be a very good judge of what percentage of them do come back or don't come back while we are sitting in the middle of a dark room.
     
  3. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Do you mean as loved by fans? I don’t think strength and courage are the issue. Rey has those in spades.

    Imagine Anakin without the personality flaw of possessiveness, without the Chosen One prophecy, the forbidden romance, or the fate of becoming the most awesome villain ever.

    She doesn't have the benefit of seductive edginess (Indiana Jones, James Bond), and she's too competent to play the heroic fish out of water (Luke Skywalker).

    They were on the right track by giving Rey pathos over her missing parents and tying that into a larger theme of the movies (how we cope with the past), but the writers need to step up their game in the next movie if they want her to be a memorable main character.
     
  4. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    I don’t think Rey was emotionally strong even a little bit in TLJ. She’s a psychological wreck in that movie. She physically strong though, moreso than Leia.

    Leia was something different. She was a feminist icon in film history because she subverted the trope of being a damsel in distress. Her rescuers showed up, and she took charge because they were clueless.

    With Rey, they did the opposite. They said they were giving us a girl protagonist hero who is special on her own, not because of Skywalkers, and then she spent an entire movie begging Skywalker men to pretty please save the day and tell her what she’s supposed to do. Oh also, the new EU tells us she downloaded her skills from Kylo and Luke made her. So her heroism is still dependent on the Skywalker men, just not for any valid character-based reason.

    Rey to me is a symbol of how clueless LF is. This is the studio that gave us RotS Padme years after it gave us Leia. It’s regressing, continually, and it has no self-awareness about it. It’s too busy insulting fans that don’t enjoy the content and calling them sexist to reflect on its own choices.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Disney/LFL gave us Jyn Erso so it’s not like they are unaware of how to write a great female character who stands her ground in the face of emotional manipulation. And Jyn had been on her own prior to adulthood as well, although not since she was 5.
     
  6. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Small, but Lethal star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Btw. Felicity Jones married Charles Guard. All the best!
     
  7. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2016
    This comes down to your definition of inner strength. There's nothing to be strong against without emotions that threaten your composure. And even if your composure is lost, it takes strength to 'lift' the pain back up over your head.

    And I think that Rey being humble enough to want to learn from Luke, and looking past her own grief over Han's death to reach out to Kylo... are signs of maturity, not weakness.
     
  8. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    As much as I criticize LucasFilm for having Jyn, Rey, Qi'ra, etc look similar. You can't expect them and Leia and Padme, etc to all have the same personality.

    In fact, I don't want every female protagonist to behave the exact same way.
     
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  9. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Rey physically assaulted Luke and self-righteously lectured him because she believed Kylo that he “made” him. She was not mature or emotionally strong in her interactions with these characters. She certainly was not humble with Luke.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  10. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    But isn't that the point. She's young and immature, but growing.

    Hell, I see millenials do that every day to Baby boomers and generation x'ers about the state of the world we live in.

    That doesn't mean their completely right, just self entitled, and a little too wet behind the ears.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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  11. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Yes, if the movie presented it as a mistake she needs to learn from. The narrative didn’t do that though. It rewarded her.
     
  12. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    I don't think it rewarded her at all. It ended up blowing in her face and rewarded Kylo though.

    I think with Luke, running off impulsively in ESB, paying for it with his hand, etc, really set the standard not just for Star Wars heroes but for all media heroes for having emotional and physical setbacks.

    It's just that Rey and an assortment of modern culture heroes can't meet Luke's high standards to that regard.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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  13. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Sure. I'm not arguing for TLJ. I just had a few examples in mind to use when discussing strength.
     
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  14. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Well I disagree, because she got what she wanted from Luke after she did that to him and she got away from Kylo with no lasting repercussions on her. She chose to leave Kylo safe and sound to take over the FO so that’s not a consequence of her emotional immaturity earlier. It’s a consequence of her intentional choice. Rey didn’t have any decent emotional setback in this movie. She heard “the worst thing she could hear” and then she was woo-hooing five minutes later. She was an emotional wreck throughout the movie, and then it ended.

    Regardless, this conversation was about Rey’s strength compared to Leia.
     
  15. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2016
    I was trying to call into question yours and AFS83's definition of strength.
     
  16. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    Leia's always been more emotional centered character in all of Star Wars compared to Luke, Han, and Rey too.

    Just because Leia and Rey are female doesn't mean you should compare that aspect of them.

    That would be like me comparing Finn's lack of street smarts to Lando's mastery of it. Just because they're black characters doesn't mean they should have the same traits.
     
  17. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2016
    @cerealbox You're ideally right, but there's a time to analyze the representation of an oppressed demographic. You want women to be well-rounded characters in stories.
     
  18. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    Keep in mind, unlike Jyn who was a one shot, we still have one more movie of Rey's journey.

    Also, odds are there will be a time skip, where a lot of offscreen development would have taken place.
     
    The Legions of Lettow and Ava G. like this.
  19. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    If you don't want to compare Rey and Leia, you certainly don't need to. I joined in a conversation already in progress comparing the two and gave my opinion on it. I think it's totally reasonable to compare them when the discussion is about how LF portrays female characters. The discussion was about strength. Female characters being portrayed as emotionally weak with no focus on their own motives is a specific and nasty historical fact in fiction. Leia's portrayal subverted sexist tropes. Rey's has gone back and embraced them. That's a perfectly valid topic of comparison and discussion. Just like it would be valid if someone wanted to discuss how Lando was a more ground-breaking portrayal of a black character in film while Finn felt more stereotypical. Nobody is talking about how all women or all black characters must share the same personality traits.
     
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  20. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    I just find Rey utterly bland and completely forgettable. Not my idea of a "strong character". Regardless of how much physical or emotional weight Leia could bench press, she left an impression on me. "Strong" characters leave an impression.
     
  21. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    No soapboxing. No feminist Hellfire sermon. No transparent attempt to win Likes. No walls of pretentious text.

    We got a frank, honest, down to earth opinion that hits home.

    You win.
     
    bluealien1 and godisawesome like this.
  22. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    Gasp. It's almost like Leia was raised correctly by two strong loving and caring parents, while Rey wasn't.

    Oh, wait...
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  23. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    Well if we're basing Rey on her upbringing as an orphaned desert scavenger, then she should be much more savage than she is. Her reaction to Kylo Ren, based on her upbringing, should be to either run away and hide or stomp him out with extreme prejudice. I have no idea where she would have learned to reach out to someone who tortured her. That kind of conflict resolution would not have happened on Jakku.

    If you remove the run away option (because it's a movie), she would be left with the same idea that many of us had to the idea of Luke reaching out to Vader and ultimately throwing away his lightsaber. Why don't you just kill him?
     
  24. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Yeah so this feels totally irrelevant to the post you quoted. Are you saying that a sexist portrayal is the logical outcome for a female orphan character? Maybe orphans explain the origin of sexist tropes lol.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  25. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Which is one of the reasons why I think TFA did a better job with her; she's got rough edges, a calm and self-assured demeanor, a "fight-or-flight" reflex that seems stuck on "fight" in most circumstances, and an aggressive nature. Yeah, she's still altruistic and kind, but she seems to understand that those are traits not necessarily conducive to survival on a cruel world, and is tempted to abandon them if there's material benefit for her (her intial attraction to selling BB8 to Plutt.) She's irritable in tense situations, introduces herself to Finn staff-first when she suspects he's a thief, and has no problem identifying Kylo Ren as a monster who, at best, could maybe be pitied for his pathetic fears and insecurities.

    Even her strengths, which are definitely emphasized to a questionable extent, are presented in a sometimes clumsy way that goes along with her rougher exterior and need to sink-or-swim from Jakku. While she knows her way around engineering, she can still make mistakes (releasing the Rathtars), and while she knows how blasters work, she intially forgets about the safety and requires more than one shot, and of course, she has a very rough and uneven application of the Force skills she "downloaded" from Kylo Ren.

    Kylo's experience and clear skill give their fight in TFA some actual tension, as it's basically a game about whether or not she can rise high enough to take advantage of his self-destructive choices.

    In TFA, Kylo's actions lead her to keep trying to shoot him without hesitation, and when that doesn't work, she shifts to trying very hard to kill him with a lightsaber, and is only prevented by the geography changing on her. But in TLJ, she loses all her confidence, rough edges, and is kind of demoted to a more simplified set of clichés, while her powers are just casually established as fully formed. The result is a character who outwardly seems strong, but in TLJ is written kind of weakly.
     
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