ST Kelly Marie Tran (Rose Tico) in Episode IX

A fim is is subjective...good, bad average..the idea of "lack of understanding of the SW universe" is at best laughable, at worst it's part of that same toxicity (aka only i know what SW is). As for the presumed "insufficient competence" one has really to really have no clue about filmmaking to mistake "dont like this story" for "cinematographic incompetence"

When i hear this kind of things i cant help but be curious and ask this question: which blockbuster movies were done with competence in the last 2/3 years?

 

1.Fans ste toxic ,thus no criticism allowed.
2.Who can satissfy all,thus no criticism allowed again.

Is there place for any criticism ?

 

Agreed. I’m getting sick of everyone putting out their opinions and criticisms as if there is only one way to be a SW fan. I think the Prequels are poorly made in some ways (I still enjoy them), but I had to realize that a lot Star Wars fans see value in things that I don’t.

I recently had an argument in my real life with a fellow SW fan and when I told him that the ST is my favorite trilogy so far, he said the most wonderful phrase, “You are NOT a true Star Wars fan.” Like...what does that even mean? I didn’t know all Star Wars fans had to be the same. I also didn’t know it was that serious, but you know...whatever. Geek culture is weird.

A lot of people compare The Last Jedi to Avengers: Infinity War. I’ve also seen comparisons of TFA (and ANH) to The Guardians of The Galaxy.

 

But real criticism can result in improvements.
We should care for toxic criticism not to be used as justiffication to deny any criticism.
I have learned the most in my life from my honestly critics.
Apart from been arrogant, to deny value of criticism is most self-damaging.

 

Yeah but SW is weird when it comes to criticism. The reception to TLJ is very representative of that. The critics, for example, (the ones that give criticism for a living) pretty much love the film. The fans are the ones with the divided view.

 

Sadly,instead of simply avoiding any entanglement with angry fans,Lucasfilm employees responded actively ,with following chain reactions in drama-hungry media, resulting in acussations of SW fans for toxicity,racism,harastments.Because of extremly small minority of agressive fans,much large masses of moderate critics fans felt putting stigmata on them to.
Therefore,the consequences of division are greaer than it should have been .
For instance:
A British dirrector Mark John with the help of fans all around the World is making a documentary about demonisation of Star Wars fans in the media after The Last Jedi.Name of documentary will be "Episode Backlash".

 

See but here’s the thing: Star Wars fans who haven’t participated in the racism, sexism, harassment, or the toxicity have no reason to be offended. I never understood the mentality of someone saying “Not all Star Wars fans are bigots” because they are simply stating the obvious. If the Star Wars fandom is getting called out for toxicity, then that might be because too many people aren’t doing enough to stop the problem. But on the other hand, if you’re not participating in the toxicity and are continually being a positive fan then why even say anything?

Personally, I’m both disgusted and amused that many Star Wars fans claim that they feel “disrespected by LF and the creators” and are actively boycotting the franchise, as if being an unsatisfied SW fan is the same as being a part of an oppressed demographic. Saying something like “Star Wars fans are the worst”, “Star Wars fans are bigots” or “No one hates Star Wars like Star Wars fans” isn’t the same as saying “Gay people are the worst” “Black people are bigots”, or “No one hates Hispanic people like Hispanic people”. The Star Wars fanbase having a negative stigma associated with it is unfortunate, but a lot of people need to get over themselves. The fans are responsible for their own image, not the creators. The creator’s job is just to tell a story and sell it. The fans are the ones who make a name for themselves.

And quite frankly, I have yet to see anything that LF, the Star Wars actors, JJ Abrams, Kathleen Kennedy, or Rian Johnson have done that warrants the amount hate and harassment that they receive.

 

I for one am glad to see Rose return for IX. I wasn't a huge fan of her character but I thought Kelly proved herself to be a talented actress who tried to bring some maturity to the character, and I think it would feel wrong for her to not be there with Team Light Side for IX.

I do hope that Abrams does better by her character than Rian did, though.

 

The only thing worse than rebellion

is the thing that causes rebellion."


Frederick Douglas, 19th century American statesman

 

Yes, this forum is like 75% criticism. Criticism, especially negative, is the dominant online discussion AFAICT. And it's a minority of this that is actually harassing people like KMT, but it's still so many people in that minority that it's an overwhelming mob of hate.

To me this goes to the issues online overall. The internet is full of nastiness and intolerance and negativity. And I don't care about LFL, I'm more concerned with the only thing I can change--myself and how I contribute, and the question of online communities. I still don't believe I should have any say in the matter of the stories others want to tell. But I'm currently in the midst of a battle in my mind between individualism and collectivism. And I don't know which side is winning.

From a more, what I'm calling "collectivist" standpoint, then movies are all about customer service (make the fans happy, you owe them) and important social messaging (no story should ever have something that could even be remotely construed as the "wrong message" and should spin the social narrative the "morally right" elite powers approve of).

There is incredible diversity in all the criticisms of Star Wars and the ST as well. So if a mob assembles under the banner of "you ruined Star Wars!" one will find it is less unified in the 'why' of that. For instance if I overall come out disliking the ST more than liking it, it's unlikely it will be because I'm all mad about Luke's character arc.

I still believe that stories need to come from the depths of one's soul to be great, and I still think that this focus on money > art is disgusting. But there is no way to get away from the materialism that has consumed this world, from living in this sickness.

Also I don't know if this pertains, but I didn't see LFL people ever saying that all those criticizing the ST are doing so because they don't like diversity or having more characters who aren't white males. I saw them as directly addressing that group of people criticizing the ST on those grounds (this is not the same thing as claiming the only people who criticize the ST are those people).

The individualist in me thinks no creator should bow to the fans and say "okay I won't tell the story I want, the one inside me, I should tell the story that I hope reflects what YOU want."

And it's also bizarre in that when I was in the Xena fandom, very little discussion was focused on criticizing the show itself. The story was what it was, and most discussion was about what was in it, and debating interpretations or trying to answer questions regarding the many plot holes throughout the show.

My guess is that the online Star Wars fandom around the PT time was pretty similar to this now (a lot of people disliked the PT)? And even as one who didn't like the PT I'm glad I wasn't in the Star Wars online fandom for that. And if the fans drove GL away that's kind of horrific.

I think the internet is a place where the human mob mentality instinct is easily stirred up.

And maybe part of it is that a fictional story isn't a war or a cause, it's not on that level, but it's being treated like that.

 

Respect to your standopoint.Now I more clearly understand.

I am strongly against all harassments,and in case of KMT research has led to one fan group of around 40 followers that harrased her on social media.Media do not show this, I am not sure why, because we need evidences and evidence exist, but as I said evidences only point to a few dosen of people associated in one social group,so I am afraid some do not want this to be clear but needs to use this to widen the narrative.

40 radical people out of many millions of fans, linked in and arround one Facebook/Twitter account (probably their leader) harrased KMT.

As a legalist I am for pointing on those who are truly guilty. As a Star Wars fan for my entire life, 40 years, It is difficult to see demonisation of Star Wars Fans because of extreme small small group of racist people who made bad things and hurt this lovely actress.

Saying that Star Wars fandom has a tendency to be toxic, evil, crazy, racist, myzoginist more than the rest of population is insult to entire Star Wars. Without Star Wars fandom there will be no balance, no Star Wars. Star Wars are strong and big just as its fandom .And SW fans are good people, like all others.

If we take just one million of random people, I am sure amongsts them we could find 40 radicals,mentaly ill people, even terorrists.So we will find them in Star Wars fandom to.

But because of that extreme pinnacle, which are a shame of not just Star Wars fandom, we see organised media supported spread of demonisation of all fans, widening narrative to encompass all criticism for (by the opinion of many) inferior storytelling and bad managmenet of recent Star Wars films. It is a bad thing for Star Wars.

Some "circles" want to take advantage of this , but it has been seen trough it.

 

@FN1971 I respect that you've done your research, I haven't been doing any research which is probably one of my problems.

I think you are right that without facts the Star Wars toxic fandom narrative can be spun to fit any agenda just about. Another matter is that not all harassment is for the same reasons, and so harassment of KMT and of GL are not necessarily comparable.

 

I never understood the nastiness directed towards Kelly, Jake, Hayden, or any of the other people who played a character that wasn't a fan favorite. They read the lines they were given according to how they were directed, so if there's anyone deserving harsh words it would be the directors and screen writers that needs to be directed at. I get her character was maybe a little bit of a let down, but I think she did a good job of acting.

 

I disagree entirely. You create numbers out of nowhere, with nothing to back it up. You make claims about what the media (or at other times Lucasfilm) is doing, again, with nothing to back it up.

You are the one who plays the victim-card, drawing connections between those who have been criticised over their racist and sexist behaviour and those who dislike TLJ. Neither the media nor any people involved in making the movies has made such a connection or in any way hinted at something like this. As a matter of fact, they went out of their way to declare that they are criticising said racist, sexist and overly aggressive behaviour, not the regular criticism aimed at TLJ, or any Disney movie for that matter. Yet here you are, pretending that someone is out there to paint a wrong picture, while you are doing that all on your own. You are painting the wrong picture by putting words into the mouths of Lucasfilm and the media.

And no, this most definately isn't just "40 radicals", it is part of a broader trend of decent behaviour getting more and more lost, with people taking advantage of the anonimity offered by the internet to throw the most vile garbage at other people. This has taken a much bigger effect than in the past, both in terms of scale and how vile comments have become. People may always had a bit of that in them, but the technology of this day and age has amplified it a whole lot. It certainly doesn't help that a certain leader is the most horrible role-model for that either, enabling people who normally wouldn't have dared to act as pathetically towards others to now enacting their disgusting stances.

 

Personally I don’t understand the idea that critics of TLJ are hurt due to meanness for their opinions, but some of those same people try to deny KMT the right to feel hurt by meanness directed at her. It doesn’t matter if it’s a minority. It’s personal for her. She sees the one in a hundred racist/sexist comments on YouTube or Instagram (with the 30 or more upvotes) and it affects her. Similarly, critics of TLJ hear some LF employee/associate call some critic a manbaby, or some again hugely upvoted Facebook comment calling some TLJ critic a basement dwelling overweight neckbeard, and they’re triggered. There is nastiness all around. It’s okay to point it all out, to highlight it and imo even shame it.

In my perfect world, even on the internet people wouldn’t necessarily feel comfortable being personally hateful because someone is there to respond and call it what it is. Just like the people that showed up in their polo shirts in Charlottesville to march for white supremacy. They had to answer for it when they went home and their bosses and peers had seen their pictures holding tiki torches screaming whatever Nazi slogan it was they were chanting that I didn’t care to put to memory. The internet is a hive of scum and villainy. It makes people feel bad. KMT is just expressing her truth that she isn’t going to be run off the internet by jerks making her feel bad, jerks that we all know do in fact exist.

 

It’s really not comparable at all.

One is a person being bullied by an extremist faction of TLJ critics. The other is a supposedly more “moderate” group of critics feeling bullied by justified denounciations of these extremists.

This, of course, raises the question of how “moderate” and “legitimate” these people actually are, if they think that criticism directed at racist bigots was directed at them.

 

Yeah no I don’t remotely agree. All I see here is “when people are mean to people I don’t agree with it doesn’t count!” Which I’m seeing a lot of on both “sides.”

 

While I always advocate civility with all parties, cyberbulling someone and rudely criticizing cyberbullies are not the same thing.

 

Uh denying that people called names after doing nothing more than expressing a negative opinion on a space opera is cyber bullying is strange, to say the least. Or perhaps you’re denying that it occurs. I mean, whatever, just as I’ve seen it many times with KMT, I’ve seen it toward critics of TLJ all over Facebook and reddit, which was my point. A Facebook post telling “manbaby neckbeards” to get out of the basement and over their headcanon isn’t criticizing cyber bullies. It’s cyberbullying. It really does count even when you disagree with the people that are being called names.

 

I think there is an argument to be made that if LFL "cyberbullies" back they are just as bad. But I don't perceive them as doing that. I think they have been more civil than those being uncivil to them. For instance they don't tell the fans to just DIE. They don't threaten the fans. They don't mock fans on the basis or race, sex or body type that I've seen.

Though the other matter is if it's a person's personal account and someone trolls them, they have a right to respond in a less than friendly manner, if they respond.

 

I have seen all of the bolded from TLJ fans to TLJ critics all over SW internet.

But I 100% agree that LF people haven’t. With some of them it’s been more of generalizing critics in with sexists and racists in ways that are very imprecise and dismissive that people have taken very personally.

Which goes back to my entire point about KMT. It’s personal to the people being insulted, even if in the bigger picture we understand that it’s a tiny minority and it’s comments being taken out of context. I’m seeing a lot of defensiveness on anti-TLJ Internet about KMT’s feelings here, and I just feel that those people have felt attacked a lot and talked about that a lot, so they should sympathize with KMT and not turn it around to be about themselves.

 

But those people weren’t just expressing their negative opinions in a civil manner, they were harassing the cast and crew and spewing hateful rhetoric.

If you think that attacks on bullies are attacks on all people with a negative opinion of TLJ, that says more about you than it does about LFL.

 

You're ignoring my point and at this point I think it must be deliberate. People critical of TLJ have been insulted in anonymous, personal ways all over SW internet, just like KMT has been.

 

I don't understand the complaints about her character or role in TLJ and the hate she received is beyond disgusting. I'm glad Rose will be back for 9.

 

She's an interesting idea for a character, but was misused in TLJ unfortunately, and given two of the most cringeworthy lines of the ST thus far. And that's the sad part because she's talented and played the part fine enough (particularly that first scene between her and Finn was perfect and her character really came through), on top of being a great person and really sweet apparently.

Hopefully she's utilized better in IX. Probably a smaller role this time though.