KOTOR Campaign Guide: Some new info

Well, he should know "about" Malachor V, and obviously have been there, since that's where the final battle was... but "all about"? Hmmm.

D'oh.

Ah, ne'ermind, if Malak knew "all about" Malachor, it's hardly the end of the world.

Well... CotOR was riddled with mistakes, so I don't think folks will mind if that gets overwritten. It's a pity though, since that was one of the sections that didn't really conflict with anything, and made a fair amount of sense.

 

Ah well, so much for the shadow war between Revan with his assassins and Malak with the fleet. I still hold some hope though that if Kreia was in charge of Malachor that the assassins were still "Revan's baby" as oppossed to Malak and his "big toys". But then, I remain a fan of a "backroom power struggle" between the pair throughout the latter part of the Jedi Civil War, instead of Malak's betrayal purely being opportunistic.

The comics have made me feel the pair were too close such that they will have required a wedge to have slowly been driven between them (of course, Revan cutting off Malak's jaw won't have helped matters). I still prefer Revan (with Kreia) keeping Malak in the dark about Malachor's "true power", all the while letting Malak play with the Star Forge. Plus I feel Revan treating the Star Forge as unimportant would play into Malak's condemnation of his attitude at the end of KOTOR1, and similarly KOTOR2 would then justify how it was the power of Malachor that represented the true threat, compared to just the "starship factory".

The one thing I still can't fit into all this is Nihilus though. Part of me thinks it'd be cool if he was Revan and Kreia's "doomsday weapon" on Malachor. The other part of me wants Revan to have never had anything to do with him, but I don't know what role that'd leave for Nihilus during the Jedi Civil War in that case. Of course, I take the view Nihilus became the "destroyer of worlds" straight after the Battle of Malachor V, so my confusion lurks in wondering why he wasn't doing any planet swallowing throughout the Jedi Civil War.

 

The guide specifically says that Malak "studied" at Malachor V rather than just took part in the battle.

Then again, Revan wasn't at the battle of Malachor V so Malak wasn't necessaraly there either.

Kreia's bio implies that she never met with Darth Revan and that Sion and Nihilus didn't meet him either and were soley Kreia's.

Nihilus' bio says that he discovered his powers on his own after the Mandalorian Wars but it was Kriea who taught him to fully explore his powers.

A problem with the guide is that in the game Sion is specificaly Traya's apprentice while Nihilus and Kreia's connection isn't mentioned while the guide mentions Nihilus learning from Kreia but has Sion getting his powers earlier.

There's still room for Kreia to teach Nihilus to explore his powers but have Sion as her main apprentice. Unless Sion was taught by Kreia as a Jedi before he joined up with Kun's Sith.

 

Is that not when Revan fought Mandalore then? I always just assumed he slew Mandalore during the battle before hitting the doomsday bomb.

Interesting.

From the game I actually always took it that Sion was Nihilus's apprentice and helped him overthrow her (e.g. Kreia = Palpatine, Nihilus = Vader, Sion = Starkiller), but that when Kreia recovered her powers and returned to take revenge Sion realised Nihilus wasn't the one to be worried about and pledged himself to Kreia after she headed to Malachor in KOTOR2.

It would sound like the guide is trying to draw a line between Kreia/Sion and make Nihilus the "outsider" of the group. That may make sense if Nihilus turns out to be someone from the comics, since Nihilus is the one who needs the most exploring, whereas Kreia/Sion had enough potential backstory in the game that its easy enough to just fill their gaps in the guide.

Not sure how I feel about the implication Kreia never met Darth Revan. Makes me wonder why she became a Sith after Revan was redeemed if she wasn't around during the Jedi Civil War. Especially since KOTOR2 implied Revan went back to her after the war before he went to fight the True Sith (she knew about his quest and said he wouldn't tell her where he was going, which kind of implies they had a conversation about it at least). If she wasn't a Sith already though, it'd mean redeemed Revan caused her to become one... which is just strange.

Maybe there's more to the whole "We thought you died during the war!" stuff than her just faking her death, but genuinely being out of action somewhere for a while. Still leaves a question mark over how she knew what Revan had left to do though if she only just crawled out of her grave at the start of KOTOR2.

It kind of makes me think Kreia, Nihilus and Sion might have all been off doing their own thing during the Jedi Civil War... no idea what I think of that though. I really need to get hold of the guide so I can read this stuff first hand.

 

Doesn't Nihilus' backstory imply that he wasn't doing his own thing all the time, but rather was part of the war effort who was caught in the shock of Malachor V in the same way that the Exile was, and snapped the other direction? It seems to me that the more logical way to read that is Kreia finding him after that point and taking him under her wing a bit - until he gets out of her control, and then she has to find a way to stop him. Thus, the Exile.

- Keralys

 

Now, see... I never got either of those vibes.

I always thought of Kreia as training both Sion and Nihilus, Sion because he explicitly calls her his master, and Nihilus because the cut scene between the two of them on the Ravager seemed to me to make them out more as "partners" than as master and apprentice.

Details?

 

That's what KotOR 2 states and the campaign guide doesn't contradict that.

Although the guide isn't specific about Malachor V it does say that Nihilus was broken by his experiances in the Mandalorian Wars.

The lack of referances to Malachor V might be to reduce spoilers for the video game but that's pretty much a lost cause.

His body starts to disintegrate due to overusing the darkside so he transfers his spirit into his armour and lets his body and personality cease to exist.

 

Does it say when? Obviously this implies before KOTOR 2, right? So that would mean no more Nihilus is still alive theories.

 

Interesting. So how does that mesh with Visas "seeing" his face when she took off his mask?

[image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/9/97/KOTOR2Nihilus.jpg]

 

Good.

 

It's just a projection of his dying self before it fades away.

 

Meh. I can't say I really liked the whole "armour" idea, I'm with Catherine on not really feeling it fits with Visas's line. They can find a way to retcon it and make it work, but I'm not really keen on the idea all I fought was a floating sheet. That feels a bit too much like the stereotypical white sheet image of a ghost. It works for Casper, but doesn't seem to fit the idea I always had in mind of Nihilus.

I suppose if Visas did know Nihilus though then perhaps she was just being philosophical. Maybe she just wanted to recover his mask as a memento but had always known who he had once been, so was just saying "just a man" instead of giving an unnecessarily long winded explanation of why there was nothing there. Its perhaps more moving for Visas to have always just seen him as the man he had been and not some kind of dark side spirital demigod.

Oh well... no doubt I'll be fine with it once I get used to it.

 

Yeah, i don't care for it either.

Though I do like the idea Nihilus is just a Force doppleganger.

Then....is he really dead at all?

 

Revan was there, just late enough to avoid the MSG. He had himself delayed.

And Zor, if this stuff on Kreia (never meeting Darth Revan, yada yada) is on the money, then it's likely they *are* going with the Chronicles. There's a lot of cool stuff there... but the little backstory they give Kreia isn't.

Basically, according to the Chronicles, Kreia is a Jedi Master throughout the Jedi Civil War and, at its conclusion, she becomes obsessed with knowing why Revan fell (it doesn't take into account the fact that he's now good and she could talk to him). She follows his footsteps and ends up on Malachor V... where she goes evil. And, no, that doesn't match up with the game... given the Masters' belief she died in the Mandalorian Wars.

 

No, he's making that up. It says that "Nihilus the man" only finally dissolves into oblivion after he's killed.

 

Yup, Ulicus beat me too it.

I think that Kreia's bio can be reconciled with the game, but it might take some effort...

"JEDI MASTER KREIA, Revan's old mentor, is still haunted by guilt, wondering whether it was her teaching that resulted in Revan's fall to the dark side, and begins to search for him. Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force." -- 3,955 - 3,953 BBY

Since everyone thinks that she died during the Mandalorian Wars (and if she turns out to be Kae, during the Battle of Malachor V), my guess is that she was in a self-imposed exile during the Jedi Civil War, much like the Jedi Exile. I guess that it isn't a very original explanation of the facts, but it works.

Also, notice that the Chronicles say that she was "completely consumed by the dark side of the Force." That phrasing may imply that she was already influenced by the dark side before Malachor.

 

I... don't know what to think.

My immediate reaction is: FTL.

The main reason I dislike it is the part about Kreia feeling bad. I don't like the idea Kreia's life was a tragedy. I like the idea Kreia was a villain. It takes a lot of the punch out of her as the main bad guy of KOTOR2 if she was just the upset teacher who got involved in things she didn't understand and went bad by mistake.

However.

I am going to choose to interpret it as that she always had the views she had during KOTOR2 and taught Revan and Nihilus to think the same way she taught the Exile. If she was of the "Vergere school" of thought and trained Revan the same way she trained the Exile then it would make her "Sith" from the start. The difference is just she wouldn't have realised at first, she'd have been like Atris: too naive to realise all her study of Sith holocrons had corrupted her already. It would mean it just took Malachor to make Kreia realise the reason Revan fell was because she was already a Sith.

In a way, that actually makes the parallels between Kreia and Atris huge.

In that sense, Kreia would not be the big bad Sith who caused the Mandalorian Wars, but I'm currently believing that was Haazen anyway, so I'm not too worried about that. If 'Arren Kae' "died" at the Battle of Malachor and went into exile when Revan announced himself the Dark Lord of the Sith, then I could buy that (it also creates a highly interesting parallel between Kreia and the Exile). Kreia treated Sion and Nihilus with contempt. She wanted to master the dark side, not let it master her. If she felt "bad" about what Revan did then I could accept that in the same terms as her contempt for Nihilus: they both let the dark side master them. She tried to teach them to be like her, to "master the Force", but instead they both fell and became monsters.

If it was like that, I'd be happy with the Chronicles interpretation. It would also possibly explain why she came to want to destroy the Force, blaming the Force (specifically the dark side) for having corrupted the minds of her two apprentices (Revan and Nihilus) and driving them mad. She had only wanted to make them strong, but the Force twisted their minds. Thus why she loved the Exile, for the Exile mastered the Force, not the other way around.

Having written all this... actually the Chro

 

Yes, as Sentry's just proven, it can work... I'm just hopelessly in love with the idea of Darth Traya being the Lumiya to Revan's Jacen.

When she says, "what the greatest of the Sith Lords learned of evil, they learned from me"... I don't like limiting that to Sion and Nihilus.

 

Before KotOR 2 would be the obvious interpretation.

The campaign guide says that the Sith students at the Trayus Academy introduced her to the idea that the force is manipulative and controlling and she tries to reject it but then realises that it's what she subconciously knew all along.

In the game she keeps expecting the Exile to have a moment of philosophical realisation and is really disapointed when you never do.

 

The big question becomes: What did Kreia have to teach Sion if he'd been a Sith three or four decades longer than she had? Wouldn't Kreia have been the "n00b" in the relationship? I can buy Nihilus, since if he was a Jedi who sold his soul to live at Malachor then it makes sense she may have tried to help him. Sion I don't quite get though.

I suppose it can be interpreted as her just going "It was my fault" but it takes a lot of the kick out of it. Its basically her going "I made the same mistake the original Exiles did".

Curiously, that means the "True Sith" could be interpreted as being "The Dark Side" itself. It would very much be a case of Kreia admitting evil never dies and that the source of corruption will forever exist.

I suppose that would fit with the Chronicles if the idea was that after she went to Malachor she realised the truth that the dark side itself (in her eyes simply "the Force") was what had corrupted Revan. That could then play into her reason for wanting to destroy it like I said above. Not what I thought before, but I guess it all can fit together that way.

It also goes to explaining why Nihilus was a total abhorrence to her, since Nihilus had given his entire soul, body and mind to become an invincible demigod. That'd have been her idea of utter sacrilege.

 

Sion was a marauderer and his main ability was developed by instinct so he may have had a lot to learn from a less combat orientated Sith.

Another interesting fact is Sion and Nihilus' lack of Jedi class levels. That doesn't mean that they aren't fallen Jedi but it does sort of hint it. It may just be a gambit to stop people trying to get plot twists from RPG stats.

 

Doesn't Kreia say something about how Sion is an ignorant fool who cares nothing of learning though? Or was it he knows nothing of teaching? I remember something like that.

 

Still hoping the GSW Sion is a different Sion to the one we're familiar with. (Though wait, is it in Darth Sion's biography that he's referred to as a marauder from the GSW?)

The three schools of Malachor were: "Betrayal", "Pain" and "Hunger". Kreia says there must "always be a Darth Traya", so maybe there have been other Darth Sions, too?

It could well be that the names aren't Sith Names in the traditional sense, but rather titles of office.

That'd be funny, actually:

Krayt: Lord Nihilus, you survived death by containing your consciousness in your armour! How?
Nihilus: (What?)
Bane: (aside) He thinks you're the other one.
Nihilus: (Oh. Lol.)

 

So, Haazen was Darth Sion, Revan was Darth Nihilus and Malak was Darth Traya?

 

Yes, it is. It also suggests Sion could be his given name.