ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

I mean as the person who restores the Jedi, not just through flimsy groundwork and being some "inspiration" but actually doing it. That is not the same as being the protagonist of a new trilogy. If this hadn't been a do-over - which is not a foregone conclusion for a sequel - there could have been a functioning Jedi Order and Rey's narrative role could have been to protect it or something else entirely. That way, Luke's legacy would have been the founding of the Order and Rey's could have been something else. Both could have had worthwhile legacies that way.

 

I thought Rey taking the Skywalker name was a bit forced but well within the realms of honouring their legacy and fits in the picture of her looking at the twin suns. At this point though, there were so many homages to the previous movies that I didn't mind a decent one.

I admit, my romanticism for the OT comes at every single time when that happens because of the impression it made at the time. I'm ok with any director wanting to tug at my heartstrings with that move.

We also know that Rey does want to belong and wants a family name, and she made a connection with the Solo/Skywalker family, so it doesn't feel all that wrong that she chose that one. But I'm not sure what else she could have chosen if for some reason that was not available. I feel it was added to the story so that the new universe will have some connectivity to the old one and that a legend can live on. Like she said to Luke, 'the galaxy may need a legend'. Sometimes it just does. People need heroes to look up to and for ideals to strive for.

 

It's not Luke's place in the ST - it's Luke's place OVERALL - his "place" was to restart the Jedi Order. Now, Rey is taking that place. His place was to defeat Palpatine. Rey took that as well.

Rey isn't the first generation of new Jedi, she's the second. The first is dead because Luke screwed up with Kylo. Leia is leading a Resistance because the Republic she helped form failed. There's no legacy, it's all been usurped by Rey, along with her taking the Skywalker name.

Yes, it did. The whole premise of the end of the OT is that they are forging a new tomorrow, and not having to go through the same battle again because they screw it up. But of course anything it promised was ripped from Luke, Han and Leia and handed to Rey. Not even Finn and Poe get anything.

I'm not. But that's JJ's stock in trade - he can only rip off better filmmakers than he is. I saw that scene and wanted to be ill, frankly. And before you ask, no, I haven't seen TROS - I think you're thinking of me, not @AhsokaSolo Still haven't seen it outside of the clips in Mauler's review, which were terrible. Still not going to pay to see it.

She made a connection with Leia, I suppose, so why not Organa? No, the money name is Skywalker so Skywalker it is, despite her fractious relationship with Luke. At least we were spared her being Solo, after the joke made of that name and the fact we'd never hear the end of it from the Reylos.

 

One commonality I see here is that the people angered by the romance or romantic subtext relating to Ben Solo with Rey is that they come off as though they think they see the "true reading" and other people are in denial. I don't expect that posture to change but it is an attitude not seemingly shared by people with other points of view. Ironically the hardcore "bondage reylos" would probably agree with them most. I don't know what to make of this situation except to say that perhaps some people feel a missional purpose in denouncing the romance or romantic subtext here.

What I most agree with is that if you are completely allergic to this idea that Rey would develop an attraction to the Ben Solo buried under Kylo Ren's wickedness, you probably can't enjoy the existing sequels very much. The emotional or romantic bond is enough of an element that she ends up kissing him after he turns. I would be much more bothered if she did so beforehand, and assisted him in his villainy hoping that one day he'd change. That's not what happens in the movies though. She waits until he demonstrates a full repentance and an about face, changes sides and rejects the dark side of the Force and also (to a degree depending on one's interpretation) helps her. Through their bond she presumably also knows directly and telepathically that he is completely sincere.

Is this corny? Maybe. Cheesy? Maybe. I don't necessarily think so. It is no more pat to me than Anakin Skywalker repenting and returning 100% back after twenty years of uninterrupted Dark Side evil. But to me the question is one of corniness or cheesiness, not one of moral offense.

 

Which I never did.

The novel is an equal-canon adaption of the film and contains Rey's direct thoughts; the fact of the matter is if she were in love we Kylo Ren we would know it becuse we see her thoughts regarding him in the scenes that supposadly hint at romance. She does'nt, ergo she is not.

And if Johnson viewed Reylo as being a thing he would'nt have ended his movie in a way that made it impossible to occur. Not to mention he would have communicated it to Trevarrow, who if I'm not mistaken was writing DTOF before TLJ was realeased.

"She looked at his lips?" Wut? So she was looking at their mouth (I'm not sure when this is supposed to be, but I assume this is while they were, you know, talking) but what does that prove? Are we to assume she has an oral fixation as well as hand fetish?

This is all drastic over-reading and misinterpation pilled upon drastic over-reading and misinterpation. Their's no "evidence" of anything, just assumptions and interpetations that are not supported by any canon facts aside from, perhaps, the kiss.

This is a fair position and I understand your point much clearer now. I think it just comes down to individual tastes and the amount of importence different peaple place on specific charecters/the way the view the universe.

He did restart the Order - Rey is only able to do what she's doing now becuse he laid the groundwork.

Also, Luke's place was'nt to defeat Palpatine. He never did that to begin with (it was'nt even Anakin's place, as the prophecy only said he would restore balance to the Force, it never mentions defeating the Sith or Palpatine/Sidious specificly, and does'nt even say how he would restore balance)

"New" Jedi in this case means following Luke's generation.

That's not Leia's fault. Would you have perefered she done nothing while the FO rose to power?

That is literally never said in RTOJ. The move just ends with them having a party while the galaxy is still mostly held in the iron grip of the Empire. The ST could have just revealed that they all were killed the following morning when the Imperial Fleet counterattacked and glassed the forest moon and it would still be prefectly in keeping with how the film ended.

You mean the General Poe who was Leia's protegee/surrogate son and lead the Resistance to its final victory over tyranny? And the General Finn who had the most charecter devolopment of anyone in the ST, going from a mindless former stormtrooper who wanted nothing more then to run far away to a fully independent Human and heroic freedom fighter who played a central, deciding role in the final battle?

Yeah, did'nt get a thing...

She might have had a difficult realtionship with Luke, but she still admired and respected both him and his ultimate sacrafice. Not only that, but its becuse of him that she has access to the information she can use to rebuilt the Order and thanks to his intervention/encourgment that she ultimatly decided to do the right thing and face Palpatine.

Picking Skywalker allows her to honor two of the three, not just one of them, which woul the case with Solo, and avoids the possible legal and political issues of picking Organa.

 

Nope. Never stated in the films. Yoda said, “Pass on what you have learned...” not “restart the Jedi Order, you must...”

Again, no. Luke's destiny was not to defeat Palpatine.

The premise is that The Rebellion defeated the heart of Empire. Darth Vader was redeemed. The Jedi Returned. Good wins. Love prevails. Beyond that is simply your interpretation. Nothing was promised after the end of ROTJ.

 

I’m fine to agree to disagree with you on this. I think it’s really obvious, and RJ’s commentary in the form of interview answers, comments to fans, and Twitter “likes” all back up his intent matching my interpretation.

The elevator scene is framed using classically romantic staging. Everything about is that way. In RotJ, when Luke goes to Vader, he doesn’t get up into Vader’s immediate personal space and stare longingly at his lips... or where his lips should be lol, with a vulnerable, open mouthed expression. I don’t understand how to argue what is for sure just body language in a cinematic context. I think it’s very very obvious, and I would point to parallels with both romantic and non-romantic settings to make the point.

But you didn’t answer the main point. Why did Rey think Kylo would turn good for her but not for Han? This isn’t over reading or an assumption. This is a basic question of character motivation that imo cannot be answered at all without romance. Some random girl isn’t going to sway the evil villain more than his own loving father, unless... something.

I forgot lol, earlier what prompted Rey to intimately open up to him? Well that scene took place immediately after she saw him half naked and he talked about murdering his loving father, her friend, like a demented sociopath. Unless your premise is she was moved by demented sociopathy, I’m going with Kylo’s naked chest having a significant impact on her

 

It happened immediately after she went in the dark cave, looking for answers that she didn't get.

 

I meant in terms of her scenes with Kylo. She went from half naked Kylo talking about patricide that she witness yesterday like a total psycho to opening up to him, with no development between them in between. What Rey experienced on her own has zero to do with Rey choosing to open up specifically to a psycho.

 

Rey experiences the dark side. She is shocked. She goes there even under lukes guidance. This is a major reason why she is willing to listen to someone on a destructive path.

 

"The control, alt, delete buttons you must push, open the start menu this will. Mhmm. If work this does not, hold down the power button you must, initate a cold boot, this will...yes..."

That's not canon evidence. That's just out-of-universe statements and, given RJ's general attitude, a lot of it could very well just be (and probobly is, given the contents of the film) him trolling the Reylos.

If Johnson wanted them together he would'nt have ended his movie in way that makes it impossible and he would have told Trevarrow to put a romance into DTOF.

Oh, that was were the lip thing comes from. Rey is much shorter then Ren. She was'nt looking at his lips, she was looking at his face.

As for the elevator, I don't see anything romantic there; intimate, maybe, but not romantic. I've been in situations like that with both woman and men, and I don't think either party thought it was romantic. It was just two peaple having and intense conversation in an enclosed space. That's not really classic romantic imagery, at least not in my experience.

Body language can be misread or interpeted different ways. At the end of the day their is no hard canon evidence supporting Reylo - once more we have acess to Rey's thoughts, so if she were in love with him we would know it.

The movie stright-up tells us why she goes to save him and why she thinks she can suceed, and it has nothing to do with romance - she saw good in him and had a false vision that she experienced with such clarity that she belived with 100 percent certianity that he would turn, and belived that by doing so the Resistance could use him to turn the tide of the war, which would complete the main mission that had brought her to Ach-To in the first place. Romance and love are never mentioned in any of this, and we know for a fact they don't factor in becuse we have acess to Rey's internal thought process thanks to the novel.

The scene took place immedatly after her scene in the cave. She did'nt open up to him becuse she saw him without his shirt (my god, what?) she opened up becuse, in that moment, she was deeply shaken, confused, immensly vulnerable emotionally and desperatly needed someone to confided in regarding her experiences and could not go to Luke.

Rey's experiences have 100 percent everything to do with Rey's choices, especially since in this situation the experience directly informs the choice.

 

No the movie does not tell us why Rey thinks Rey has to be there in person with her life on the line. The movie never even attempts to address what Rey has that Han doesn’t. It simply presents as fact that Rey has something he doesn’t, in her mind at least, because she is totally convinced that she can succeed at doing what she literally watched Han fail at yesterday. The movie failing to have dialogue on point doesn’t change the fact that there has to be some... thing Rey specifically brings to the table. Her plan is that Kylo will turn good for her.

It does not remotely inform us why Rey would choose to intimately open up to the psycho that tortured her two days ago, that she watched murder Han yesterday, over Chewie or Luke or a brick wall.

 

The shirtless scene is where she called him a liar.

I don't see why her own individual experience would be "irrelevant" to how she approaches him. She's disappointed with Luke and the cave didn't tell her anything. At this point I think she'd ask a porg for advice if porgs could talk. She is completely alone. However, she has had time to consider Kylo's account of the incident in the hut. So when the force bridge opens again, we find her talking to him (although we do not get the beginning of their conversation, the way it's edited) and to me anyway it is clear that the cave frustrated her and drove her to open up to him. What if he's telling the truth? It turns out that from his limited perspective, his version is substantially true and Luke had held something back. In my reading, the innocent Ben Solo self is beginning to leak through in the hand touching scene. She sees something still within him. So she confronts Luke and ultimately gets a fuller picture--but in the process this forces Luke to face the truth he has held within himself all these years.

Fans may differ about whether he gave Leia the full story when he told her about it years before, but my take is that however much he told her there was an aspect he felt he couldn't share. But he breaks down and tells Rey the whole thing. Since he's re-connected himself to the Force now he is also sensing her bond with Ben and he is naturally concerned for her. She turns out not to be completely right but she isn't completely wrong either. As when Luke went out to fight Vader without permission, her unauthorized contact with the enemy gave her a fuller perspective that her teacher didn't think she could handle. But in the end, she does what Luke did and goes beyond the teacher.

 

She had a vision (what she belived to a vision at least) showing him turning and belived it was guaranteed to come true. Presumably she saw herself being present in that vision, as she felt the need to go to the Supremacy.

No. Her plan is simply that Kylo turning good is already a done deal.

And even if that were the plan, that would'nt mean she loved him - it would, at best, mean he was attracted to her (with he is), not the other way around.

The fact that the movie gives an inadiqute explanation for her motivations (it does, I will agree on that) does not mean that she's in love with him.

 

Yes to ALL of this.

 

You ignoring the issue doesn’t actually answer it. Why? “Because a vision said so” doesn’t tell us why Rey is the magical ingredient to Kylo’s redemption in Rey’s mind.

She literally tells Luke that if she goes, then he’ll turn. So yes. Her plan is that Kylo will turn good for her.

It’s true that that speaks more to Rey’s belief in Kylo’s feelings for her than hers for him, except when you factor in the suicidal extent of her belief in that lol. The kind of faith that she put into Kylo despite everything he’s actually done to her really speaks to the reciprocal nature of the feelings involved. She’s like an idiotic 15 year old with a crush on a player, convinced of his genuine feelings... even though, unlike those players, Kylo wasn’t even nice to her lol.

Rey being hot for him (I would never call that farce love lol, unless I was specifically trying to avoid being accused of baiting by a Reylo fan) maybe just coincidentally perfectly explains her choices then. It all makes sense if she’s a moron with a crush, and it makes no sense whatsoever in any context without it.

I want to thank you for not making an argument about Luke that required me to point out that regardless of Luke’s attitude, he didn’t strap her to a table and torture her or murder one friend and maim another while she watched, so obviously there is no rational argument to support Rey opening up to Kylo over him.

 

Episode VI was literally called "Return of the Jedi". The phrasing heavily implies a plurality of Jedi.
Luke was the first new Jedi since the Empire came to be. The implication was that he was the first of many. There was no one else alive to teach other Jedi except for him at that point. It was left hopeful and open ended.

The Disney Trilogy then had Luke fail catastrophically in his attempt to teach new Jedi. Kylo was a key factor in that, of course. By the end of Ep. IX, Rey supposedly learned from Luke's failure and somehow ends up in the same position as Luke at the end of their respective trilogies; being the last Jedi alive. The implication is the same as it was for Luke in that position. She has a responsibility to teach a future generation of Jedi. The writers could have let Luke succeed in teaching and not given that same burden to Rey under such similar circumstances. But as it stands, Rey usurps that legacy from Luke.

Essentially this:

 

Why does the Jedi Order have to be restarted? Why does an organization have to be formed in order to learn the ways of the Force? What was Luke's failure?

Why couldn't she go to Luke? Why didn't Rey go to Luke? Why turn to the very man who tried to violate her mind just a few days earlier? A few days earlier. That never made any sense to me. What was Rian Johnson thinking?

 

As I said, I agree that it could be explained (much) better.

It's not suicidal in Rey's mind.

Or a naive, overly-trusting 19 year old who does'nt know enough about the Force to know that visions can be incorrect

Have you considered that maybe it's just badly explained? Rather then that there "must" be a satafactory explanation that makes sense?

I understand that you want an answer so that you can buy this, but the answer your going for is'nt supported by any actual evidence, just specific interprations of body language. At the very least though, I'll agree that perhaps she finds him attractive. But there's a huge leap between thinking someones hot and wanting to save them becuse of that.

Your welcome.

Listen, I don't have a problem with TLJ and I don't really have a problem beliving the setup, but even I'm not going to deny that the situation between Kylo and Rey was difficult to buy into and definatly should have been explained more. We're not in disagreement about that.

That Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies, is vanity.

Luke was wrong about a lot of things in TLJ, but not this. The Jedi Order has been around for a little over 25,000 years (per the ROTJ novelization). The galaxy managed to survive long before them, and it could survive without them (even if they have been a net benafit overall).

 

Just to answer your above question, I suppose I could consider that all the romantic implications of TLJ were an accident of bad writing, if the writer himself hadn’t made it totally clear he intended reylo to be romantic.

Rey thinking he’s attractive at all with their “development” is such a repulsive, sexist depiction of her that I can’t even engage with it seriously in theory. It’s too dumb. If RJ was willing to make Rey that shallow and moronic, it’s already past the point of being coherent or thoughtful or rational.

 

Agian, if Johnson intended for Reylo to be a thing he would'nt have ended his movie with it being impossible and he would have communicated with Trevarrow to ensure continuity with (what was going to be) the next film. These facts are pretty damning blows to the idea that he was angling for Reylo to be a thing.

As for if he hypotheticlly may or may not think that outside of the film that part really does'nt matter, becuse the only influance Rian Johnson has over Star Wars canon is what chose to put on screen.

We have access to her inner thoughts, and I don't recall any evidence of thinking that (though I could be wrong, as its been a while since I've read the novelization).

But that aside it's perfectly possible to be physically attracted to a horrible person that you personally hate, becuse physical attraction is not something a person can control. Her hypothticlly thinking he's handsome even after what he did to her is'nt sexist, its just biology.

Except he was'nt.

Luke was giving her the cold shoulder since she arrived and he had already critizied her for being drawn to the darkness (not to mention she has some doubts regarding his honesty) - if she had gone to him she knew he would have only been critical, not understanding.

And Rey did'n turn to Kylo - remember neither of them have any control over their linking up a this point, it just happens; if I'm remembering correctly in the novel it shows that the link materlized as she was returning to the hut. He just happened to show up and she decided to sit down and offload onto him becuse he was there, it was'nt planned.

Remember how shaken and traumitized she was in this moment - she was essentially shell-shocked; she was'nt thinking clearly and I think its safe to say if she had been she never would have considered talking to Ren.

 

Really? First of all thank you for telling me the literal title of Return of the Jedi. What would I do without this info?

Nothing is implied more strongly one way or another in regards to singular/plural phrasing. It can be either.

Question: How many Jedi have “returned” at the end of the movie?

Do you really think that, if Jedi is used in the plural manner, it means the entire reborn Jedi order and not just Luke and Anakin?

If it does mean the entire Jedi Order, it’s misleading, considering we don’t see that in the film.

Every Star Wars movie shows you exactly what the title means/refers to within the time span of said film. Return of The Jedi does too. Guess what? It’s NOT the Return of the Jedi order....beyond Luke. He’s it. He is the Jedi order.

Clearly you must know the movie Return of The Jedi is literally not about the idea that Luke will be gathering force sensitive children and training them and that the order returns in the sense you are suggesting the title implies.

See the underlined? That is not what the title is referring to, nor is it what the film is about. Luke is referred to as The Last Jedi in Episode 6 by Yoda himself. He tells Luke want to pass on what he has learned. Then Yoda reveals the twin sister. That’s it.

Exactly right. The ending of our The ending of our OTJ left things ROTJ left things. Hopeful and Open Ended. Not certain and guaranteed. Not definite and promised. Not forever happy, and successful.

 

I don't think this is a complete or ideal answer, but there was a deleted scene where she got totally fed up with him because he pretended the caretakers' husbands were "marauders" coming to raid the island and she ran out to save them only to discover a party. More realistically, especially because it's fair to try and interpret the film without this scene, I think she just went to the cave of evil and that reinforced her sense of isolation and disappointment in Luke. Her own dialogue says "I came here [the island, not the cave] looking for answers..." indicating that she has lost faith in Luke to help her find her place in it all, to take her words for it.

I've commented here before turning in for the night because I agree that she turned to Kylo partly out of frustration and desperation. My view is that Luke was right to be concerned about her connecting to Kylo in a way, but he is also coming from a distorted perspective of his own, that relates to the secret he has not shared with her about WHY he feels responsible for Kylo's turning on him. This is an important moment for Luke though because he is now really invested in her as a person, even if his notions about what she should or should not do are distorted.

I'm not one of the people who somehow think Luke was just fine the whole time. I'm a little baffled that these people exist. But since they do exist, I will say again--Luke's haunted by his failure and fears training Rey because he thinks he might do more harm than good. He doesn't want to train anybody. His lessons do have some value, but his attitude needs adjustment. His contact with Leia, the confrontation with Rey, and his encounter with ascended master Yoda bring him to the point of taking up the mantle of galactic savior one last time. He finds peace when he has a last conversation with Leia and confronts Kylo in a manner that is neither aggressive nor lets Kylo claim the kill. That's how he inspires people across the galaxy many of whom join Lando in the next movie. All this is my personal take, but the thing is that both Rey and Luke are improved by the relationship they form. When he then appears to her as an ascended master himself, he has overcome all the darkness that clouded his judgment and is able to give her full support. It is only then that he really passes the torch.

From a certain point of view it was Luke's own inadequacy, burdened as he was by guilt, that made her vulnerable to Snoke's plan to form a bond between her and Kylo as a trap. However that trap not only blew up in Snoke's face, it also gave her a chance to mature and realize her amazing powers and compassion wouldn't automatically redeem Ben Solo.

 

He did until JJ ran out of villains.

Would you like a sharper knife for your hair splitting? That is what he meant. Unless you think Yoda was telling Luke to make a rap musical about the Jedi.

Oh here we go...

Oh, c’mon, you missed saying that it’s only happy because the story ends there and all the other junk I’ve read for four years now about how it had to be that way and we’ve spent 30 plus years interpreting the OT incorrectly.

‘I’m enjoying gathering up all these receipts to throw down when Rey fails to restart the Jedi Order in episode 10.

You mean ex drug smuggler Poe, who I’m sure will be smuggling again in 10. I suppose BB 8 will be asleep in the hold of whatever ship he’s using. Probably the Falcon. Meanwhile, poor Finn will be yelling Rey again, I’m sure.

I find it ironically hilarious that the ending of ROTJ meant Luke, Han and Leia leading the galaxy in peace for 30 plus years because of the fairy tale ending of ROTJ until JJ couldn’t figure out a plot and Kasdan wanted his ending of ROTJ and then suddenly I’m told by fanboys that that was not the ending of ROTJ and how wrong I am to have ever believed there would be a permanent happy ending and so on and so forth. That was not true until now and all your after the fact, Monday morning quarterbacking and revisionist history doesn’t make it true then. The point of the OT was it fixes what went wrong in the PT and trashing it all in the ST so that Miss Bland can steal all the OT’s successes while Dollar Store Vader actually kills them doesn’t erase how it originally ended.

 

It's been a while since I banged the "Rey wearing makeup" drum, but I think it belongs in this discussion. You don't apply makeup to go save someone's soul if your sole motivations is helping the Resistance. Rey's makeup and the framing of the elevator scene make RJ's intent in regards to Rey's motivations perfectly clear to me.

How did he make it impossible? Also, we can't really use the lack of Reylo in Trevorrow's script as evidence, considering he was fired for "creative differences" and not being able to make the script work to LF's satisfaction. Considering the script they accepted ended with a big Reylo kiss, I'd say that their intent was clear.