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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

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  1. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    How so?

    Luke never defeated Palpatine. He did'nt even fight him, and was twiching on the floor winching in pain when the man was killed.

    It seems like a pretty big assumption to think there's going to be an episode ten at all, let alone an episode ten feturing Rey.

    Well, that sounds like a great peace of fanfiction but it does'nt change the facts of the answer I gave - deliberatly extreme hypotheticals regarding non-existent movies don't overule the events of the actual films.

    And so what if Poe is an ex-drug runner? He reformed did'nt he? Surely you would'nt hold the fact that he once ran spice agianst him any more then you would for, say...Han Solo?;)

    It seems strange that anyone would think there would be a permanent happy ending in a francise called Star Wars.

    And thirty years is a long time. Peace for thirty years is a hell of an accomplishment.

    Return of the Jedi (OT) - Released 1983
    The Phantom Menace (PT) - Released 1999

    Something about this does'nt quite line up with your premise.

    Daisy Ridley the actress may have been wearing makeup, but it seems absurd to think Rey the charecter was, if only becuse she had none to put on.

    Daisy was wearing makeup throughout the movie. In all likelyhood the makeup was heavier for this scene becuse of either lighting or becuse it was shot on a different day then the other scenes beforehand. It does'nt actually mean the charecter had suddently applied makeup.

    An actor wearing makeup =/= their charecter wearing it.

    Becuse the movie ends with Rey and Kylo firmly set up as enemies and Rey turning her back on Kylo and severing her link with him.

    Yes we can, becuse LFL was aware of what was in his script and he was writing it while TLJ was being made; if a romance was planned don't you think they would have communicated this to him?

    And they only did'nt end up using his script becuse Fisher died.

    Abrams's intent; we're talking about TLJ, not TROS.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
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  2. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 10, 2005
    Luke does defeat the Emperor. He has faith. He is the one putting his life on the line. His actions kickstart that whole motion.
     
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  3. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 21, 2019
    His presence and actions may have influanced the events that led to the emperor's defeat, but Luke himself did not defeat him; that's like saying Kylo defeated Palpatine in TROS, or Anakin and Obi-Wan defeated Dooku in ATOC.

    That being said, Luke did play a direct role in Palpatine's ultimate defeat in TROS, so in that regard he did defeat the emperor.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
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  4. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 10, 2005
    I think Luke defeated him because he defeated the dark side. Only through Luke was Vader finally able to escape the cage palpatine had around him. Luke destroyed the essence of the emperor.

    ....okay let's be fair theres a lot going on in that scene.

    However Luke goes in there basically saying, "I may live, or I may die, but either way you are going down." Which is also one of the best parts. Mark hammill is dwarfed by Vader's size and in front of the most powerful wizard and has the ***** to put him in check.

    I still like the lightsabres in the OT most.
     
  5. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 21, 2019
    I suppose it is fair to say that he may have defeated him "from a certain point of view" (but I doubt Luke would agree with that sentiment) and their is some validity in that statement. However, it certinaly does'nt mean that Luke actually defeated the Emperor in a legitimate sense, which is what would be required for Rey to have "stolen" his achivment*, which is the discussion being had here.

    *and even if she did, she was only able to defeat Palpatine when she faced him becuse of the assistance of a number of Force ghosts, one of whom was Luke and anouther of which was Anakin, so in the end she would'nt really be stealing anything from either of them.

    Windu and Dooku's sabers are in the PT, thus rendering your statment invalid:p
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  6. dinnertime

    dinnertime Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 14, 2020
    Sorry if my phrasing was a bit harsh, but i am being pedantic here because previously you said:
    The titles are part of the narrative. (and if were to be more pedantic, I could point out that the titles are stated in each film's opening crawl.)

    Let me clarify my point:

    It is reasonable to expect the Jedi Order to return because it is stated in the films, in the title of Episode VI.

    The Jedi were on the verge of extinction. Luke was the entirety of the Jedi Order at that point. Gotta start somewhere, right? The movie shows the "Return of the Jedi Order." They are returning from the verge of extinction, going from zero future Jedi to one future Jedi. Luke's completes his training which functions as an act of Return on behalf of the Jedi.

    The Return ends up being meaningless if he never goes on to teach anyone the ways of the Jedi. (unless Yoda or someone else want to start teaching from beyond the grave...? Could that be a thing? i don't know). Luke is not obligated to rebuild the Jedi Order exactly as it was before. He never even directly experienced it before it fell. I wouldn't even expect him to conform to all the same dogmatic views from the past, considering how he clashed with Obi Wan and Yoda. Luke has a fresh start to do things better than they were in past.

    There are definitely multiple interpretations for "Return of the Jedi" but I think by the end of the film it is strongly implied to refer to somer form of Jedi Order. And to fully realize this task, he would have to go on to teach others. But if he never goes on to teach anyone the ways of the Jedi then the Return is ultimately meaningless. Return implies some form of permanance or legacy. If they wanted to say something else they should have used a different word. The implications of words are important enough that the writers changed the title before release from "Revenge of the Jedi" to "Return".

    Ultimately though, here is where we agree. Technically, anything could happen. Just because it was strongly implied does not mean it is actually going to happen. It is a pretty weak argument but technically it is correct. For what it's worth, I actually felt the concept of Luke's failure to be compelling on the surface, but the actual execution and context was severely lacking for me. The writing is disrespectful to the past in that Luke's failure is used to foster sympathy for Kylo, and prop up Rey so she is positioned to succeed where he failed.
     
  7. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 10, 2005
    I mean more the visual effect used.
     
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  8. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 13, 2004
    I agree. Reasonable....not guaranteed. Add to that, Luke DID restart the Jedi Order. I wonder if some fans would have been more happy if the ST would have shown Luke's Jedi Academy in action and their destruction...

    I hear what you are saying and agree with some of it. Thanks for the back and forth!
     
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  9. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 7, 2018
    That wasn't my point at all. My point was that when there is the inevitable Episode 10, Poe will be dragged right back to where he was, this new background of smuggler, just like Han was.

    The PT was designed to end up working with the OT as a whole piece, so that the OT reverses what the PT has done.


    Yes, he did as others above me have pointed out. Until JJ decided that Palpatine really didn't die because he had no other villains left if he wanted his precious "Ben" to get his redemption.
     
  10. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    You'll of course be kind enough to provide evidence that an Episode 10 is "inevitable" and that, if it is, it will even involve the same charecters or follow the plot your suggesting it would.

    And your point (which is'nt even a point but just a baseless hypotetical) does'nt make any sense, becuse its not a counter to what I said in response to the claim that Finn and Poe were given "nothing" by TROS.

    The PT was made years after the fact. If the OT reverses what the PT had done it was'nt by design on the part of the former films.

    Only in a super roundabout and overly-technically-specific manner could Luke be said to have in any way "defeated" Palpatine, and in such a case Rey would'nt be stealing anything from him. Even so, Rey was only able to defeat Palpatine when she fought him becuse Luke (and Anakin) were directly helping her, so in the end even if Luke did defeat Palpatine Rey would'nt be stealing anything from him this time around, she'd just be helping him (and a bunch of others) defeat him for a second time.

    Oh, ah, okay I see[face_peace]
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
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  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    .... Hence her comment "the PT was designed" this way.

    You can watch the OT by itself and get a whole story, sure. It worked on its own for like 20-30 years after all.

    But with the production of the later prequel films Lucas made a meticulous effort to make the six films feel like a galactic fall and redemption when viewed as one progressive arc.

    Isn't that the point of the saga generally?
    This is pretty obvious if you watch the films through a few times.

    The OT generation were always heroes. The PT actually enhanced their victory by showing they redeemed the previous generation... the ST doesn't help like this.

    It is like a symbiotic circle that get dampened and diluted by the ST added after the fact. They didn't have to design the ST like that, but what is done is done.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  12. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 21, 2019
    Her earlier qoute (the one that I originally responded to) was "The point of the OT was it fixes what went wrong in the PT" - but that's not the point of the OT, becuse it did'nt "fix" anything, the PT fixed itself with the benafit of hindsight. The OT was'nt built or designed to reverse/fix anything, and you can't attribute the PT's intent to three movies made a decade earlier.

    It's all aside the point anyway, as the relationship between the OT and the PT and how the tie into each other does'nt have any realtion to the ST - the story they shared wrapped up with ROTJ.

    True. Though the "point" of the saga is something different to different peaple.

    It's a matter of prespective - I don't hold the view that the films need to be tied together in anything beyond a loose manner, and I don't begrudge the ST and its charecters for having its own story seperate from the other two films (no more then I begrudge the OT from having a story seperate from the PT were the main plot is only loosely tied to the previus films). I also have never viewed the saga as being the story of the Skywalkers or the story of Anakin Skywalker specificly, but that's probobly becuse I saw the OT before the PT was made and was always more into the EU anyway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  13. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Okay, fair enough.

    I don't think @PendragonM meant it that literally though.

    Just that because of the reverse engineering of making the PT, the OT characters are unwittingly fixing the mistakes of the past (both in-universe and out of universe).

    And Lucas renamed SW '77 "A New Hope" after its runaway success. So he obviously loosely had something like this in mind even before ESB came out.
    And the Jedi "returning" stated by the film's title in '83 is of course also loaded with implications.



    Agreed.

    To me, personally, it is the element that holds the six films together so well.

    The different creators, production processes, time between films, and even the nature of each story themselves meant there is a lot of difference in intent and tone.
    But the six films feel like one big grand arc regardless, it makes it worth watching all six.

    For example, I used to like to think about how Anakin would react in Luke's situations and vice versa. Luke is the better man than his father at the end of the day, but flip some circumstances and it isn't so clear cut.


    I saw the OT first also.

    To me, Luke is the main character/protagonist of the OT, Anakin of the PT, yet Anakin/Vader is kind of a background "symbolic protagonist" of the whole six films.

    We see the OT through Luke's eyes, yet through the six there is a backdrop of Anakin (and hence the entire galaxy - he is the chosen one) going from selfless to selfish and back again. That is how it feels to me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  14. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I agree with all of this. As a wise man said, ".... the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.”
     
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  15. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    as soon as this hits home video someone needs to gif Kylo holding up the finger to Hux, that'll speak volumes in any context
     
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  16. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Gandalf!
     
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  17. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 21, 2019
    No, I'm pretty sure Dumbledore said that. Might have been Aslan, though, or Eddard Stark.

    Definatly was'nt that guy who lives out beyond the Dune Sea though. That wizard is just a crazy old man.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
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  18. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    I think the difference between "the narrative role within the saga" for a trilogy watched in saga context, and "the intentions occurring when said trilogy was made." This is a real communication disconnect. When we look at the sequel trilogy, we want it to fit into the nine part saga beautifully. Ideally it would become just as essential as the prequel trilogy. It would ideally come off as a totally natural continuation of the story in terms of conditions apparent at the end of the previous trilogy. What's being argued, I think, is that the sequels didn't make the cut or didn't do this job well enough. I think that's an important question, and there are points for and against. Having said that, my "anti" side doesn't see Kylo Ren as the reason for demoting or dismissing it as a fully legitimate saga trilogy. There are reasons to question its legitimacy but to me Kylo Ren's not one of them.
     
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  19. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    If I get your implication I agree we need to talk more about Star Wars thematically instead of doomsaying about the production process.
     
  20. Lucillalin

    Lucillalin Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 10, 2016
    So has any of the published material so far addressed the question when Ben found about Vader being his grandpa, what was his reaction and how he became eventually to worship him?

    Still semi-interested of Kylo's development, though Mandalorian which I just finished has now became my fav Star Wars story. That's how you do it!
     
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  21. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    I really would like to learn more about the young Ben Solo and how he was turned. I just don't think I can learn it from a rushed-to-press comic book. Disney shouldn't have made the rule where "everything" they ever put out is equal canon. I certainly don't buy it. I want to know the story, but I don't think a real story that satisfies me will ever be told in an official product. Similar to my questions about Snoke. I'd like to try and answer them with bold and thorough saga film exegesis, but I realize the source material is limited and that others do not necessarily share my persuasion.
     
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  22. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    They haven't shown when Ben found out but him (and the galaxy) found out all at once about 10 years before TFA I think when it was revealed that Leia was the daughter of Darth Vader in the novel Bloodline. The implication is that it'll be bad for him (and it probably was).

    As for the rise of Kylo Ren comic, I've been quite enjoying it. It's brief to be sure but the major moments (ie. right after the temple, him finding the Knights of Ren) are hit and we get flashbacks to his Jedi-education with enough there to realize that Snoke (ie. Palpatine) had been mucking about his brain for decades which also clearly didn't help. I don't need a whole multi-volume thing and an in depth examination of Luke's walking dead students personal history (we get one page each in the last issue, I'm good), I get it, show me the important stuff (which it is).
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  23. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I am enjoying the comic too.

    His characterisation feels appropriate for the most part.

    And yeah getting a bit of info on the three Jedi was cool. Issue 1 makes more sense now.

    Issue 4 is make or break though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  24. Generational Fan

    Generational Fan Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 21, 2015
    I completely agree with everything you just said and I feel the same and see the same thing as you. I don't know if its because I'm older and have kids and I see the potential impacts a parent can have on a child. Or if because of another reason such as my wife being a Primary School Teacher and I get to hear all of the stories as she needs somewhere to vent with a person she can trust that won't re-tell the stories (with actual names) to someone else. Or if its because of my own upbringing with an extremely verbally abusive father and the impacts that has had on my life.

    But you see or hear it all the time. The "drop and run" parents (who continuely dump their children on their parents - and Im not referring to those who do it out of necessity for work commitments, Im referring to those who want to continuely go out partying and behaving like a teenager), the abusive parents, the drug effected parents, the parents who are Draconian in approach, the parents who let their children do what they want to do - and the list goes on and on. Im not saying Im the perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination, but I try to live up to my parental responsibilities and I always be there for them emotionally, mentally and in every other aspect they need.

    To me and with kids, what seems trivial to one person may be huge for another - particularly the child effected. And then when you don't do the right thing and don't live up to your parental responsibilities, then you get these egotistical self-centered entitled p***ks that you mentioned. Or you get other problems such as children with insecurities and other issues. Like you, for me, it seems to be getting worse with people appearing to become increasingly selfish in their approach.

    So how does my cynical ramble relate to Ben Solo? For me its just another variation of something I just mentioned. Its no where on the magnitude of other children and their issues and I think Ben's circumstances have been amplified in the ST so that it generates a certain level of drama and conflict, but for me the issues are still there and it has been the underlining emotional narrative throughout the trilogy. If you were to view Ben's issues in real life, you would probably see them on the lower end of the scale in that his actions haven't warranted mass-murder to be the result. But as I said, for me the issues are there and have been magnified for conflict and drama. And all I wanted was the detail and for Ben's issues to have been acknowledged. And as you said, an apology doesn't mean an admission of failure and I feel it wouldn't have thrown Han and Leia under a bus. An acknowledgement by Han would have simply recognized Ben's issues and shown that there were steps in Ben's downfall. And they wouldn't have removed or whitewashed Ben's actions and choices. He mad them, he carried them out under his own will and he is 100% responsible for them. Acknowledging Ben's issues just shows the path he went on and the steps that were required in getting him to Kylo Ren.

    I enjoyed reading your post and very much agree with what you said.
     
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  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I’m older, have kids, and have worked in public education for 21 years, and I don’t agree with you at all.

    But I have a good relationship with my father (just got off the phone with him a bit ago in fact). I have wondered if sympathy (or lack thereof) for Kylo and perception of Han and Leia as parents is correlated to viewer relationships and perception of their own parents, especially fathers.

    Using the “he would have disappointed you” as an example and the question “why would Han have disappointed Rey, according to Kylo”—my reaction is that if Han’s allegedly being “disappointing” is not relayed by a source other than Kylo, I don’t care. And all we’ve gotten so far is that Han had a job that led him to travel some, and if Kylo is still wallowing in “disappointment” about that at age 30, he needs to get over himself.

    Han was not abusive. And Kylo does not remind me of any of the kids that I have worked with who have problems. He reminds me of every entitled ***hole I knew in high school and college who thought that he could “take whatever he wanted.” Including, apparently, in this case, the reputations and dignity pf the OT heroes per audience demand that they, like the rest of the galaxy, owe Kylo whatever he wants.