ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

To the extent that claim tries to assert he "invaded Rey's space" in TLJ? Then yes, that was never actually on screen, not once, not even a little bit. Kylo Ren had no intent to 'invade Rey's space' in TLJ. It would be impossible for him to do so, since the movie makes it abundantly clear in multiple different ways that he has no idea why the Force is linking them.

Saying that Rey invaded his space would be just as valid - i.e. not at all.

If the fact he didn't create the Force bond is actually conceded, then there shouldn't be an argument. The relevant 'behavior' he's being accused of is that he 'stalked' her in TLJ. If he didn't create the Force bond, this is absolutely impossible for him to have done.

 

Maybe things are not as obvious as you keep saying they are.

 

The script for a film doesn't mean anything in terms of it's context and how something is presented. What exists and is important when discussing film is how the Actors and directors bring the script to life. There are numerous accounts of scriptwriters taking issues with interpretations of said scripts on screen and how it was finally delivered. If you don't get what the script is trying to say literally because the way it's acted out on screen that's entirely normal and happens all the time in film. Sometimes directors completely fail at conveying the message on their final take or they took it as something and then after showing it to a large audience realize that the intent of the script completely didn't come across. Script don't contain all of the context of a book with descriptions of thoughts feeling and mannerisms that's all added by the director and actor during the filming of the scene. Using the script to justify how something should be taken on camera just doesn't work in film discussion and your right to reference the final product not what is essentially an outline for it.

A great widespread example of this is Harry Potter and the Curse Child the script book is terrible and I absolutely hated Scorpius Malfoy and though he was a very mediocre obnoxious character. The play was actually incredible and Scorpius was my favorite character all of his obnoxious whining and lines were delivered with more levity than I could have ever imagined. The final product is what's important not the script. There are many accounts of people that despise the script book because it lacks all nuances but love the play.

 

The reason it's so hard to talk about this film is because it's poorly constructed.
Ex. There is a scene where an evil military commander has to destroy two targets. One target cannot move and isn't going anywhere. The other target is moveable and ready to escape. It makes no sense, based on the information we're given, to attack the stationary target first, yet that's what happens.

And I'm not gonna try and perform mental gymnastics to make what I see on screen make sense. I'm not going to put more effort into the story than RJ did.

What do you mean? Anakin only joined Sidious to save Padme and then, later on, he's screaming about how much he supports the Empire. Lucas never really marries those two ideas, so it seems clunky. Plus, Anakin already knows that Palpatine doesn't actually know how to save Padme, yet goes and kills all the Jedi anyway because he already watched the OT.

And as far as your other point, if you see no difference between caring for those who have helped and supported you vs caring for a person who has killed your father figure, maimed your best friend, and is generally just a terrible person. ...then idk what to tell you.

 

Yep. That's why die hard defenders of the film have completely contradictory ideas about things as fundamental as character motivations.

 

It's like talking to BvS fans about Lex Luthor's motivation and everyone giving you a different yet "obvious" answer.

 

I think there was a way to do the Force Bond in TLJ as a continuation of what happened in TFA - Kylo violated Rey's mind,and in defending herself Rey pushed back into Kylo's. This gave each other the proverbial "key" to enter each other's mind. Then we go onto TLJ. Kylo accidentally discovers this. In a moment of pain and anger,tin the med bay thinking about his wounds and what Snoke has said to him,he is surprised to find he communicates with Rey. Part of this would be Rey's location. Being in the Force-rich environment of Ach-To has heightened her strength in the Force, "Boosted her signal" if you will,allowing Kylo to connect with her. Kylo realizes this and keeps initiating it, learning how to do it more and more. A Force power he's getting stronger with,much like exercising a muscle to make it stronger.

When we get to the Throne Room, and Snoke says he initiated the bond between them, Kylo's look would have a new perspective - he KNOWS Snoke is full of it. And if he can hide it from Snoke that Kylo knows he himself initiated the bond, then this is the opportune moment to strike because he can also hide any thoughts of betrayal as well.

By TROS, both of them would have been strengthened in this Force Bond technique - Kylo to initiate, Rey to block it. An added line to their initil Skype session in the movie, when she says "You're hard to get away from.", he should've countered with something like " No matter how many times you try..." . Play up that this has been going on constantly since the end of TLJ. Difference now is, with them trying to stop Palps, she finally doesn't block his attempts,hoping maybe she can glean some info from him that will help the Resistance.

So you can keep it a consistent narrative across all 3 films of Kylo trying to enter Rey's mind against her will,and Rey trying to stop it as she gains more Force knowledge and power. I feel it would be a be consistency of keeping Kylo the stalkerish creep he was in TFA and the beginning half of TROS,where he is shown intentionally initiating the Force bond with her time and time again.

 

he pledged himself to Sith after Sidious informs him he actually doesn't know how to help Padmé.
And also should Anakin's motivation had been the intent to save another - a Lightsided kind he would have never be able to become a Sith, he would never fall to Darkness, hence his motivation was something else, something Darksidey, such as thirst for power which he exibited many times during RotS and even AotC.....actually the only Ani I find myself relating to is the clone wars Ani...

But that is just it. It is not about me, or you. We are talking about Rey the Jedi Initiate, a follower of a religion that has compassion, period. For everything that is not lost to the darkness.

Their FB did start during interrogation....or better yet, was established. As novelization said, they recognize the feeling that passes between them. And while I believe Snoke/Palps did open that channel I don't think thst neither Snoke nor Palps were aware of the existence of the dyad....that was there as a precursor to their force bond as early as prior to events of TFA. When she, one cold Jakkuan night felt a sudden chill due to something Ben did half the galaxy away. And Force itself chose them two for the dyad. So no, Kylo does not initiate anything. They are thrown into it.

 

It's poorly written. His motivation for following Sidious is saving Padme. The fact that he goes along with it AFTER finding out the power to cheat death is BS is because Lucas didn't know how to make it convincing and was hoping that one line in the last movie about Anakin being okay with a dictatorship would be enough to sell Anakin following Palpatine for the next two decades. It's just poorly written.

She's not a Jedi at this point. Plus, Jedi aren't really all that compassionate toward their enemies. That's why they always end up killing them. Luke does the compassionate thing by trying to save his father and it goes against what the two Jedi were telling him to do, which was to kill him.

And yes, Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader. That's why when Luke says he can't kill his own father, Obi-Wan responds with, "Then the Emperor has already won."

 

I wish JJ would have let Kylo keep his TIE Silencer from TLJ in TROS. That ship is one of the few things I actually liked about TLJ.

 

He stalks her through the forest in TFA the first time he meets her and then kidnaps her, for crying out loud. Then he stalks her and Finn through the snow after he's killed Han Solo. While most of TLJ tries to act like he's now suddenly a wibbly lip villain who is an emo goth working at Hot Topic, he does tell Luke he'll "destroy her" and come TROS, he tries to follow through with that threat by stalking her multiple times, including stealing her necklace so he can locate her planet, where he then tries to run her over with his ship. Seriously. He stole a necklace off her neck just so he could stalk her to a planet.

He's stalking her through most of the film with the intention of seducing her to the Dark Side, something she does NOT want. He tells her about her parents and Palpatine being her grandfather when she's crying and telling him not to. He destroys something Rey has been searching for through the whole movie and tells her she can only find Palpatine with him -- all of that is abusive behavior. Him being a villain doesn't give him a free pass from this type of language, especially when Rey ends the film kissing him.

 

Think about it, Rey is alone in the Takodana forest. She looks around and what does she see, nothing but FO troops. What is she gonna do, say NO?

 

It doesn't help that Rian Johnson has said that Rey fell in love with Kylo Ren in the Last Jedi, making compassion feel like a rather dubious motivation for her actions, especially when he's the only one of her enemies that she offers compassion to (and as mentioned, her enemies include slave soldiers) and considering that she is more indignant about the wrongs done him than she is about the wrongs that he has done others including Finn.

She confronts Luke about the wrong he did his nephew but she never confronts Ben about the wrongs he did her or Finn. Finn is completely forgotten about her and not even offered the basic consideration that someone would offer their friend in their thoughts when sitting down with the man who violently hurt them and rendered them comatosed.

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The film feels that Luke's actions warrant acknowledgment and an apology to its victim, but doesn't feel the need for Rey to be given one nor for her tormentor to show the barest signs of repentence for his actions towards her and/or friends before she falls in love with him. It feels like it doesn't require Kylo Ren to show a basic amount of decency.

For example, when Rey is forced to interact with Kylo Ren and she asks him to put something on because she is uncomfortable with his level of nudity, he silently ignores her and just stares at her.

She asks him to please, do something small to make her not feel uncomfortable during their forced interactions and he responds by silently staring at her. He doesn't do this one thing - he doesn't even deign to give a response.

According to Rian Johnson, the forced intimacy was suppose to make it harder for Rey to hate Kylo Ren.

Kylo Ren forces a level of personal intimacy on Rey that makes her uncomfortable and it's treated as something positive for their relationship.

Now, I'm inclined to believe that Rian Johnson intended for Kylo Ren's half nudity to a visual reminder of his personhood but while that context works in other things, it doesn't work here. especially between these two characters due to their history where Kylo Ren has forced intimacy on Rey before and just like here, she was helpless to do anything about it and had to endure it.



A woman is forced to interact with a half-naked man and when she indicates that she is uncomfortable with this level of intimacy and politely requests that he puts on a shirt or at least, a towel, he just silently stares at her and she's forced to just endure it. Meanwhile, his refusal is not treated as a negative, even though he will not grant her even that small of a courtesy and he doesn't even deign to verbalize a refusal.

It doesn't help that it feels very reminiscent (and is a likely unintended variant) of a very old (and sexist) romance classic: the heroine sees her love interest in a state of undress (either partially or entirely) and despite her discomfort, he refuses to dress, leaving her forced to deal with her attraction that she would rather deny. Now, to be perfectly clear, I've always held that Rian Johnson is not sexist. He simply makes the same mistake that many other well-intended creators have done while trying to make progressive media: he does not reflect critically over the old tropes that have always been used. These things are normalized and so, that rarely happens.

I've also gone over Rian Johnson's commentary and I haven't found an explanation about why Rey would fall in love with Kylo Ren. I've found plenty about why the decision was made to have her Rey fall in love with him, but nothing really about what would inspire those feelings. The best I could find is a very superficial read of their relationship and character that feels centered on TLJ's intents to the exclusion of TFA's characterization and events.

"But, for me, there is some kind of primal connection between Rey and Kylo.

It has to do with the fact that even though they’re on opposite poles, and he’s kind of a, you know, a hateful character and she’s this incredibly good character, the fact that they’re both the only ones who have this power in the movie, and they’re on these two opposite islands, there’s some connection between them."

What's the "primal connection" between the two? Well, they're both special and he's evil while she's good.

That's meta stuff.

What reason is there for Kylo Ren to evoke positive, let alone romantic feelings, in Rey?

They're both special.

That's a superficial reason that doesn't speak to Rey's character, especially when Rey never cared about being special and so Kylo Ren also being special wouldn't form a connective point. In spite of their history and her positive experiences with Han, Rey also just accepts his word on his parents' perceived abandonment. She never feels angry towards him when she feels lonely even though he is directly responsible for her loneliness

There's an examination of Kylo Ren's character, but little real examination of Rey's. For example, how does it feel for Rey to sit down with the man who personally caused her so much grivance and is the reason that she feels so lonely because he deprived her of the people who cared about her? Nothing, because it's never acknowledged.

Spoiler: Rian Johnson: Hut Scene (Intent)

This is Rian Johnson talking about the hut scene in the Last Jedi, specifically about how John Williams had initially composed ominous music for the scene and how Rian Johnson had asked him to change it because it wasn't how he had envisioned and written the scene.

"C'est un point de vue valable, mais je n'avais pas pensé la scéne comme ca. Je voulais qu'on reste du point de vue de la jeune femme: je souhaitas qu'on puisse croire á cette romance."

"It's a valid point of view, but I hadn't thought of the scene like that. I wanted us to stay in the young woman's point of view: I wanted us to believe in this romance."

Romance is how Rian Johnson meant for the scene to be envisioned when he wrote it.

Source: French magazine "Classica" and Google Translate

 

Well it's either poorly written by the Grand Master of SW lore himself, or...saving Padmé was just an excuse for Anakin's choice of Darkness.

If compassion is not the Jedi way then why the Chosen one himself in AotC is convinced it is? Do you think he is just BSing Padmé there?

If they are brainwashed they are lost.

We don't know the particulars of her escape from the throne room. Rey strikes me as a very hands on person and she would have done all she could, I think. But you keep dismiss one thing, and that is the fact she only mastered the stone/heavy objects lifting technique at the end of TLJ. When she was calm, at peace, ready to process all she learnt of the Force along the way. I don't think she had the ability to master it prior to that moment.

I don't quite follow from where you extract she isn't motivated to be a Jedi. She even takes the sacred Jedi texts to study? Because she rebels against Luke? Luke at Ahch to is not the epitome of Jedism. So rebelling against him isn't rebelling against the Jedis.

But he is very much so educated on the nature of the Force. Which is what he teaches Rey. Her first Force realization in TLJ is actually acquired through Luke, not Kylo.

Rey is not cruel or callous to her friends. Where you get that from? Just because she tries to save something instead of destroying it does not make her cruel.
And the story is quite intense and complex, on many levels and side arcs, so it is, at the least unfair to say it's lazy written. But we are all entitled to our own opinions

 

So, the man who is choosing to serve as a high-ranking member in a genocidal totalitarian regime and who is choosing to massacre civilian villages down to the children in their mother's arms is not a lost cause, but his slave soldiers who never had a choice to serve are a lost cause simply because they were brainwashed?

If you're going for the former, you're clearly not going for the path of least resistance.

Furthermore, brainwashing can be broken. It's not a permanent feature. It's conditioning and indoctrination that is usually held together by a gruesome glue called fear.

If someone hurt your friend so badly that they wound up in a coma, would you sit down with the perpetrator of their pain and fall in love with the person while they remain utterly unrepetent over what they've done to your friend?

Bonus question, would you also not list your friend in a conversation where you were bringing up the people the person had hurt?

While we're orbiting around the topic, can you name a time where Rey expressed concern for how her friends were doing/feeling and asked how they were doing? Because I can name multiple times that Finn did that, but I'm struggling to think of times where it was the other way around.

 

Jedi are compassionate when the plot finds it convenient. Jedi also cut Sith Lord's in half when the plot finds it convenient. Lucas Isn't exactly the most consistent writer. That's why you have two scenes in the PT where Padme finds out Anakin killed kids and she responds radically different in them based off the needs of the plot.

Well, what does the movie say? The movie says Anakin just wants to save Padme. He thinks Palpatine knows a way to save her from dying so Anakin chooses to help slay Mace instead of letting Palpatine get killed.

Then Anakin finds out that Palpatine doesn't know how to save people from death, but Palpatine tells Anakin that if he does enough evil killing then he will be powerful enough to find out how to save Padme.

So even though Anakin knows that Palpatine already lied once, he still goes along with it because he can't live without Padme.

It would have made more sense if Palpatine would have told Anakin, "We can keep Padme safe by mlitarizing the Republic and turning it into an Empire", but that scene never happens. It's a poorly written movie that never marries those two concept's.

 

The only way it can be asserted that he 'invaded Rey's space against her will on screen' is if the argument is that he actually created the Force bond and intended to be there. Objectively, that isn't what happened, there seems to be general agreement that's not what happened, so its honestly very weird how this basic statement of pure fact keeps getting argued around with euphemisms like 'invading space'.

The bond is simply a fact both of them come to accept over the course of the movie. It's not something under their control, and both behave accordingly.

And its not 'whataboutism' to point out that by the same logic someone could argue that Rey is "invading space". It's just a factual observation.

Furthermore - Rey isn't some sort of quailing, poor victim in any of these interactions. They're confrontations between equals, not Poor Rey being somehow dominated by Kylo Ren. Kylo couldn't dominate his way out of a paper bag. It's actually a great credit to the character that she makes the most of the situation and progressively takes the opportunity afforded for them to speak, and makes her much more interesting and a stronger character than some sort of dogmatic ideologue who would rather live in ignorance.

And another thing - I don't understand why "allowed" - in quotation marks no less - keeps appearing in your posts as words being attributed to me. I never said anyone was or wasn't "allowed" to say something. I've never used that word ... at all AFAIK. I'm pointing out that in my view I think it's weird terminology and explaining why. I'm not 'policing' anything. It's a discussion.

 

Why does cutting a sith in half in a fight, equal a lack of consistency in jedi structure?

I may not be 100% down with Padme's reaction to the tuskens, but I also think there are different contexts here: In Padme's current personal state in those situations, Anakin's emotional state, and in the situation itself, as Padme may see it.

Why would it? That wouldn't prevent Padme's death, and after she dies, he'd have no reason to want it. Anakin is already written as someone who thinks forcing people to do what he thinks is right is the way to go in AOTC and ROTS. I think there's no need to marry those concepts and that it doesn't make the movie poorly written based on it not doing that. Padme's life can be what drives him, but that doesn't have to be all his character is. And I think it's not all that drives him in the movies.

 

I do not. I disagree with the use of those words and am engaging in a discussion about them. Like I said above, the repeated use of "allowed" in your posts - in quotation marks - is as if this is something I've said, a word I've used, and I'm going around telling people they can't say certain things. I haven't. It's a discussion where people disagree, "allowed" doesn't enter into it.