ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

Not if Luke and Leia lived to the end to pass the torch to Finn and Rey. One saga ends and a new one begins.

 

Well lets look at it this way.

1. But Rey and Finn are not Skywalkers. they ain't this family that was part of the last 6 movies. And what you said is pretty much what we got anyway. Luke and Leia are gone. Rey and Finn live on. one saga ends and a new one begins. not sure what difference it would make if they lived as it would only be a matter of time before the last 2 skywalkers passed on. Rey and Finn would basically just be replacements for a failed linage.

2. Luke and Leia are gone. Ben is the last Skywalker. he sacrifices his life for another, showing the last skywalker did still have good in him. and he dies and the family is gone with abit more of a positive outcome and for the 3rd generation Skywalker to validate the linage was worth something.

3. Luke and Leia are gone. The last skywalker dies a bad guy. bleak ending.

I think number 1 is just as bleak personally. Number 2 is kinda poetic, but not particularly great. and 3 is just sad.

 

I never implied that Luke and Leia would die in the concept that I proposed. I would have wanted them both to live. Though, I also believe that 9 films with 67+ years of story is great for the Skywalkers. Just because Kylo becomes a Sith and meets his end, it doesn't mean that all hope would be lost. The point would be that people are able to forge their own destinies, be they good or bad. It proposes the question: How does a family cope when their child turns out not to be what they had hoped for?

 

But at some point they would pass on. Finn and Rey would just be replacements for the linage they can never have. slowly ticking away till the last skywalker remains and then no skywalkers. which isn't much different to them not surviving the trilogy anyway.

In the long run, the 3rd generation skywalker doing one last good act is probably abit more positive for a saga that really is about linage. Anakin > Luke/Leia >

Probably not very well. Its pretty tragic.

 

One would have to have a freaking huge Ben Solo bias to think that Ben Solo's redemption (which was followed by his death 5 minutes later!!!) is a more satisfying or hopeful ending for the Skywalker family than Luke and Leia living. I mean, seriously. Yes, Luke and Leia would die someday, but dying someday is much better than dead now. At least in the interim they would have opportunity to influence the next generation, the lack of which was a major flaw of this trilogy. Rey and Finn would be much more accepted as the future of Star Wars if Luke and Leia (Luke especially) had been given the opportunity to actually mentor and influence them.

 

I wouldn't see Finn and Rey as replacements at all. They would be forging their own destinies under the guidance of Luke and Leia. If there were more Skywalker children, of course I would have loved that. I would have loved it if Rey turned out to be Luke's biological daughter, but that's not what we ended up with. The Skywalkers just have a very tragic Shakesperian story. Though I believe hope can come from even the greatest tragedy. For me, considering what we started off with in TFA, the Skywalker bloodline didn't have to live on. I would have liked to simply see their family inspire hope in multiple ways.

 

If there were no Kylo Ren, Snoke as the villain, and Ben and Rey were siblings, I would have liked for Ben, Rey, Finn and Poe to be a quartet from the start much like TMNT. Finn and Poe "on their side" is just another way of saying sidekick and I don't particularly like that. I believe that if the right writers started off with them being a quartet, we could possibly be watching Star Wars X by now.

 

Since I hated Kylo Ren, having him redeemed is NOT a happy or satisfying ending. He was the cause of the deaths of Luke, Leia, and Han. He was the cause of the loss of Luke’s Jedi school and students. He was part of the reason that the New Republic, which his mother, father, and uncle fought to restore, was destroyed. My preference would have been for this lousy character to have died unredeemed. His redemption didn’t do anything to help improve Leia, Han, or Luke’s lives. I don’t see how his redemption made anything better for them or their non-existent legacies?

 

The choices were never “heroic Ben Solo or Rey fixing Kylo.” That was certainly not JJ’s plan so clearly it wasn’t a binary option.

I also find the idea of demoting Finn to make room for good boi Ben to be rather repugnant. Not to mention the setup of two white leads supported by their devoted BIPOC supporting characters…

 

It's the lesser of 2 evil's.

Its like us spiting Anakin because he was the result of Mace Windu's death. and even Obi Wans death really. since he probably would have left the death star alive. but Anakin was redeemed

 

Pretty sure most “Ben Solo” fans are either in love with Adam or can only identify with white male characters.

In contrast with Kylo fans.

 

The real problem I had with Ben/Kylo's redemption is that I never regarded him as an interesting character. I don't think either J.J. Abrams or Rian Johnson handled his character arc well. Actually, I can say the same about the other major characters. The reasoning behind his decision to embrace evil has always struck me as confusing. And his redemption arc seemed to come out of no where. It's simply been a mess all around to me.

 

You know, the minute they revealed that the villain was a family member of the legacy characters, the stakes were ruined for me. I think it was like this for most of the audience as well. From that point on, nobody is thinking about how this villain is going to be defeated. Everybody is thinking about when the villain is gonna join the good guys. Allowing snoke to be killed in the second chapter furthered this problem. This is also the reason I've always been against the idea of a stormtrooper rebellion. What do we have if all the bad guys just join the good guys? I'd rather the villain had been someone with actual convictions, with an actual goal, and with an actual arc.

 

Bingo.

Kylo/Ben was never going to live. He was slated to die from even before Adan’s casting. Anyone who thought TLJ signaled that Ben would survive should blame RJ, who knew what CT was doing and knew while making TLJ that Kylo would die.

Ironic.

Just want to underline that point by noting that Adam himself said that.

(Anyone notice that Ben Solo stans conveniently ignore this?)

RJ basked in the adoration of fans he knew he was mocking and misleading.

Makes perfect sense to me.

The reddit leaker who leaked the whole film with incredible accuracy (in other words - he absolutely had a very high-level source) said that an ending with the whole hero crew together and Finn and Rey holding hands had been filmed. No other alternate ending was mentioned. So that appears to have been the intended ending. Meaning that the kiss was a reshoot and necessitated and FinnRey buildup be cut.

Why was the scene of Finn telling Rey he’s FS cut? In a way that left a hole in the movie so blatant everyone saw it? I doubt “I’m FS” was the most relevant dialogue in that scene.

 

I am gonna have to disagree in some way. i actually think the redemption is perhaps one of the strongest elements of the film. the scene between him and Han. is perhaps one of, if not the strongest scene in the film. there is nothing about that scene that feels lazy directed.

Now there is alot of scenes in TROS that were done lazy or uninterested. but i wouldn't say anything towards that redemption did. beyond perhaps the kiss. but thats it really.

The issue when it comes down to it, is that JJ clearly didn't feel there needed to be any build up. and my guess for it has always been the obvious. a dark sider doesn't need to have been a bad person. a good person can be corrupted. this is not new to Star Wars lore. and when they are corrupted, they won't wanna leave the dark side. no matter what. which is why the dark side is seen as such a threat to jedi. and i think it took abit of a shock to the system before Vader or even Kylo were forced to reflect. which is not that far different from addiction in general.

If the reason mentioned in the leaks were right. which I'm reading right now. then no. the reason why there was very little exposition is because

1. There was actually ALOT more exposition about the whole dyad thing early on. the oracle and Palpatine both go into much more detail about it.
2. Palpatine also goes into more detail about his plan. was cut out because too much exposition.
3. They were worried there was too much exposition. so they kept it all short and sweet.

Heck they even cut the scene with Kylo questioning how Palpatine is alive. they wanted to leave it even more ambiguous than it was. And it wasn't even that explained anyway. They just had Palpatine dismiss himself of being a clone.

Infact from what i read, They were worried the film was exposition-heavy and needed to be trimmed down for pacing. including cutting a line with Lando suggesting his belief that all the children who were stolen and made into troopers were the children of members of the rebellion who helped take down the Empire. meaning that Palpatines revenge was turning their own children against them. although the mixed implications from that are abit dark.

Although from what i have read. you hear alot of people want to think that the reshoots were forced in by the studio for their own reasons. but alot of the reshoots were not actually that big of a deal.

 

I thought the scene between Han and Kylo was ridiculous, because it's really just Kylo forgiving himself for killing him. He's not really talking to Han. It's all in his head. I didn't buy it at all.

 

We got 3 whole movies explaining why Anakin turned but it doesn’t matter why his grandson turned?

Huh…?

 

Yeah we got those 3 movies over 10 years later. Originally they didn't exist. The ST is styled on the OT. with ever-so-slight PT elements creeping in as the movies went along for good measure.