ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

Luke did not exactly have evidence. He obviously sensed the dark side in Ben and presumably sensed the future in some way or another. I think the issue is more down to what sparks those events off and whether they could have been changed. Ben woke up and was clearly afraid of Luke. And fear leads to anger and anger leads to hate. As yoda says.

The point is more so that Luke acted on a future vision and have partly drove that vision forward. As his father before him.

 

But Luke already went through that in ESB. Luke should have had the insight in the ST like OT Yoda before him. It’s so deflating that RJ made him exactly the opposite of the “wisened” Luke we were all expecting.

I actually agree with you on Kylo but it was still a poor decision to give Luke the action that served as a tipping point.

 

Ironically it may also be suggesting that we should value Kylo so much because of his family and their emotions about him, even though his own mom's emotions about it are only barely touched on in the movie itself and she's in a coma for most of it.

 

Perhaps my favorite Kylo fans are the ones who say that Han committed suicide to save Kylo from killing him, because something something he knew that Snoke would kill Kylo if he didn't or whatever. Also the ones who claim that Leia blowing up Starkiller Base was as bad as the First Order blowing up 5 (or the Empire blowing up Alderaan).

And the ones who were happy to see Kylo murder Luke, Han and Leia because they were only there for Sad Boi, but hey, at least that's honest. Unlike the ones who went on about how everyone does war crimes and the Resistance is just as bad and so on...

 

There are fans who say blowing up SKB was as bad as blowing up Alderaan and the entire Hosnian Prime system? We should be very worried about those people.

 

Not sure I'll ever get over Driver mastering the Ford Finger Point™

 

Come on, Kylo didn't murder Luke and Leia. Han though...

In theory, I can see some part of that. TFA movie did set up that those stormtroopers are former kidnapped and now conditioned children and they just blew up so many of them. But there's a big difference: SKB blew up several planets first and I think was going to do more soon, so even if, as a Christian, I'm personally against a method of doing things that have that type of collateral damage, they murdered like about billions of people and I think were going to do it again, so I can see what the rebels/resistance do far more than what the Empire/first order did, especially considering the Empire/first order was murdering basically billions first basically in a cold blooded first strike out of nowhere.

Bad that there were casualties of those who were forced to be there, I think absolutely yes. But unreasonable and directly comparable to what the empire and starkiller base did? No, I don't agree.

 

I've been seeing a lot of takes like that recently, particularly about how the Empire is portrayed in Andor. Like they can't believe the Empire are actually the bad guys.

 

There are more authoritarians (and idiots) out there than I hoped there would be in 2022. If you watch Andor and your takeaway is that the Empire isn’t bad, then you’re a fascist, plain and simple. The Empire is being depicted as worse than ever in that show, which gives us the best exploration of the fascist mindset that I’ve ever seen in genre fiction. These viewers must see themselves in the complex fascists shown on screen.

 

I didn't get the impression that post was saying that they think the empire isn't bad in Andor. I thought it was saying that the people are surprised that they're bad.

Personally, it's not my favorite approach. I prefer evil Palpatine evil-ing up and that's it, blowing up planets.

 

How can you watch Andor and be surprised that the Imperials are the bad guys? They are clearly and unequivocally doing horrendous things.

The fact that it’s very real, recognizable, complex human beings doing and justifying that evil makes it even more impactful - and instructive. Far too many people in the real world think that evil comes in obvious forms. And most entertainment reinforces that. Andor shows the banality of evil, committed by recognizable humans acting in human ways, and this is a realm important thing to depict nowadays. Hopefully it might even help people detect authoritarian-minded political leaders before those leaders acquire power.

My guess is that many of these audience members who don’t see these Imperials as the bad guys likely make very similar justifications for evil in the real world.

I don’t know. But I do know that for too long, I often dismissed views like this about fiction because it’s fiction, and surely these fans wouldn’t have such attitudes towards similar real life figures. And every one of those people (in my life) turned out to behave exactly the same way towards non-fictional character. This affirming my initial suspicion that they were indeed crypto-authoritarians. Wittingly or otherwise.

Sorry, but anyone who feels that way is an authoritarian, plain and simple.

 

Isnt there reddit page to Empire did nothing wrong, lol.

 

I didn't say it made complete sense. I just gave my impression of the post.

I don't know, for sure. But I wouldn't assume the exact same circumstances would be entirely justified in real life, in that way.

 

After watching TFA, my impression on Kylo's fate by the end of the ST :

100% for redemption and 90% for survival
After TLJ,
100% for redemption 50% for survival

I always thought Han's death by his own ends would be a main catalyst to Kylo's redemption further down the line or they wouldn't have done it or at least it wouldn't have the same impact if he was killed by a less personal character. The fact Kylo was clearly shown to be weakened by this act rather than galvanized by it as he hoped, and Snoke chewing him out for that was a pretty good testament for that. Plus, the improvised hand on his face as a powerful image of forgiveness made me think it would play a role later.

A redemption at the end of TLJ either through his love of Rey and/or his mother would mean IX would be the first feature film to explore a villain going through the atonement stage, which would make his arc different from his grandfather, but also more difficult because the writers and directors would need to find another villain to defeat unless they keep the FO as the main antagonist but then to find who to replace Kylo with? Another problem would be if the movies focused more on his atonement, what would his relationship to Rey and the overall Resistance be after the time jump between VIII and IX? Would it take away screen time from Rey, Finn etc.? What about Leia's story if IX was to be her movie after TFA and TLJ was Han's and Luke's respectively?

Though I believe if Kylo/Ben did redeem himself in VIII, his chance of survival would have been much higher than if he didn't, imo.

 

Do you think Harrison Ford would have accepted to return if they didn't kill off Han?

 

That could have been interesting...

There's a battle on SKB. Kylo finds Rey and Finn in the forest near the Falcon. Han and Chewy are planting bombs. One of the bombs malfunctions and Han sacrifices his life to make sure the chain reaction goes off so that the center blows up. Which allows Poe's squadron to blow up the entire planet.

We flash back to Kylo, Rey and Finn. We see a similar duel. Finn is taken out. And Rey force grabs the saber to fight off Kylo. They start battling. Immediately, Kylo feels the disturbance. Rey does too but she's not really sure what it means. Kylo lowers his saber. He lets his guard down. Takes off his mask. Kylo looks ... relieved. He looks almost at peace. "He's gone. He's finally dead. ... I'm free". He says to himself. He breathes heavily. He barely acknowledges Rey being there. But Kylo looks emotional. His eyes water. Suddenly he's filled with rage again. He's angry that he still feels for his father. He pumps himself up. He 'returns' to look at Rey and ignites his saber. The duel is back on. Kylo is swinging and attacking and trying to be more powerful than before. But he's still chaotic. He's not focused as he wishes. In fact he's sloppy. Weak. His thoughts dwell on his father, and Rey manages to slash at his shoulder injuring him. He offers to teach her, but she refuses. Then slashes at his face and leaves him scarred and on the ground. The ground begins to separate. And Chewy helps Rey and Finn on to the Falcon to escape SKB blowing up.

Later, Rey climbs the Jedi steps and finds Luke Skywalker. He's in tears. Has he felt Han's death as well?
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This way, Kylo still feels all the emotions from the death, without being the one to kill off Han and - in some fans eyes - being beyond redemption from that point on. It allows him to feel it through the force, and we him feeling relieved...but realizes he's still far too attached to his father. And it also leaves Han sacrificing his life for the Resistance's entire mission instead of trying to talk to his son, when he's way out of his league. I'd probably remove the line from Leia asking Han to even try, because that just shows Leia is unwilling to do it herself and keeps sending others to talk to her own naughty son. I'd probably write her as feeling Ben is beyond hope.