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ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

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  1. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Yes. Particularly since his grandfather was redeemed and Vader was no more. There's no Vader left to talk to him, or for him to talk to.

    I had no idea what a "world between worlds" was, but google tells me it's from a cartoon. Not interested.

    You can dismiss this as all wild fantasy where nothing has to make sense, but that won't make it any more human, or really do anything to redeem any of it. It doesn't make any of it better. It just casts aside any standards. I'm not impressed.

    Obviously. It's a very common motivation for murder. It's so human, it was an extremely common theme in the oldest known human stories, going back to Greek mythology and before. Jealousy among brothers is at least as old as the Old Testament. Cain and Abel is one of the most well known stories ever told. A man feeling jealousy when a woman is involved is even more human.

    Jealousy is part of the human condition. It's universal. No culture can escape it.

    Not me. I don't want answers. Not interested in them, and I hope Ben's story is never expounded on. The character isn't worth the effort.

    It's not. Vader isn't supposed to be human in ANH or really in ESB. He's basically just a monster. Lucas had the idea that he was human underneath the whole time, but that doesn't really become the narrative until ROTJ. Only then does it become relevant.

    Wut. Anakin struggles a ton in ROTS. He struggles to find the correct way forward, to determine who is right: Jedi or Sith? He struggles through all the confusing politics and the feeling that the Jedi don't trust him. "I feel lost. Obi-Wan and the Council don't trust me". "I'm not the Jedi I should be". He struggles with his fear for Padme's life. "I won't lose you, Padme". He struggles with his conflicting loyalty to the Jedi and Palpatine. He clearly laments attacking Mace. "What have I done?!" He knows he's crossed the line of no return. He sheds a tear on Mustafar. It's not until Obi-Wan shows up on Mustafar that he has put that conflict mostly behind him and is committed to his path.

    NOPE, didn't say that. I said killing family for the nonsensical reasons Kylo did is what's not human. If he had more human motivations, like jealousy, hatred, anger, revenge, etc, then it could be more human. Cain and Abel. There's a lot of patricide in Greek mythology, though it's always treated as one of the greatest, most unforgivable sins. The Furies will chase you to the ends of the earth over patricide. They will hunt you down and deliver the karmic punishment you deserve. You cannot escape them.

    The problem is Kylo's motivation; it's senseless. It's not human. It's not because Han abused him. It's not because he's angry with Han, or because he hates him. He's not and he doesn't. It's not even for something as base as wanting to inherit his father's wealth or power early; that's been common enough over the history of human storytelling. Nope, it's senseless.

    This is where Anakin becomes a monster, but his motivation is human: wanting to save his wife. Can't say the same for Kylo killing Han.

    I don't know why you keep mentioning "sound mind", but as someone who has experienced a lot of child abuse, it's very easy for me to believe child abuse can be very human, especially when given human motivations.

    Let me make something clear: I didn't say every last thing about Anakin/Vader is human. It doesn't have to be. I said there are lots of examples of Anakin or Vader being human. There are. Inhuman moments don't contradict that, so don't bother. There aren't any examples of Kylo as a human being.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
  2. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    It was the point I was debating.
    That Rey connected to the force, after being given instruction by Maz.
    It did exist. You may not have picked up on what I was talking about, but it existed.
    Because Kylo doesn't have origins, real goals or motives to support his character, as far as the movies developed. Anakin does.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
  3. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Ben Solo has pretty much zero motivation for turning to the darkside (as far as we’re told). He doesn’t seem to have much motivation as a darkside Knight of the Ren, and there is little to no motivation for his redemption. He’s as empty and is as unrelatable a character in Star Wars as we’ve seen to date (outside of Rey I suppose). I’d never class him as being more ‘human’ than Anakin… and there’s infinitely more in built empathy for Anakin than there ever was in Ben. I like Adam Driver a lot, as an actor,… but he was sold a dud.
     
  4. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    The time for establishing Ben's motivations was the movies. A single line would have done it. The creators couldn't even think that much, All they did was copy Vader, but even Anakin-Vader had more explained to us in the OT.

    Doing so in some future comic book or cartoon is just admitting that a problem needed to be fixed, but far too late.
     
  5. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    You replied to my post (as you often do), which was in response to someone else, and was about Rey not requiring any training, to defeat Kylo Ren in armed combat. Your point is a fictitious, irrelevant to the point I raised and designed to obfuscate and deflect. If you don’t want to address my point directly, then stop making straw men up and copying me in.
     
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    A brief flashback to a tragedy in his past could have done it.

    The comic books and cartoons that have featured pre-turn Ben Solo have done more to establish that he had no real motivation other than entitlement. He thought he was better than everyone else, and that was it. Anakin also thought he was better than everyone else but that was not at all his entire motivation for being tempted by the Dark Side.
     
  7. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    See. That's what TLJ thought it was doing.

    All Luke's fault. He attacked a poor innocent dark sider in his sleep and that gives Ben Solo a genocide pass.
     
  8. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2017
    read that back. The movie tells us that Ben Solo was already turned. So Luke cannot be the motivation for him turning. Luke’s self pity not withstanding, the scene doesn’t exist to make Ben innocent
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
  9. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    But that's not what I was speaking on, but in regards to Rey connecting to the force. In that post I said I was sorry for not picking up on your argument.
     
  10. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    i don't think Ben had already turned at that point. I think Luke was seeing the future, but i don't think he had turned yet otherwise i don't think he would still be there. Nor would his reaction to luke have been the way it was.

    I think the wheels were turning, but i don't think they were there yet.

    Overall Snoke likely had a huge role in getting into ben's head
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
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  11. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I know. But the movie still wants that flashback to BE the explanation for why he turns. Luke's fault. And hence why Rey is immediately taking Kylo's side and asking "Did you create Kylo Ren?!". The writing is totally inconsistent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
  12. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2017
    Yeah. I think the explanation is that Rey and Luke both feel that they could have reasoned with him if Luke hadn’t done that. But it’s a weakness resulting from no motivation for Ben. It could be solved by having something that Snoke offers Kylo so we know why he wanted to destroy the Jedi
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
  13. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2017
    Luke says that Snoke “had already turned his mind”

    And the fact that his immediate reaction to Luke drawing the saber on him is to massacre the rest of the padawans must be explained as him and Snoke’s other disciples among them already planning the attack
     
  14. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Yeah. The problem with Kylo’s motivation is sort of a three part problem, with each part making the previous issue worse:

    - Kylo has, at best, a deeply pathetic, banal, heartlessly callous and self-centered reasoning given for killing Han; it’s dark enough that it sort of demands he either be a sociopath incapable of the emotions or so irrational he has no understanding of his reality…
    - But Because Kylo is both a Solo and killing the Solos and thus the Skywalker family, the film is telling the audience that a family we love and have invested ourselves in is going to be ended for sociopathic or irrational reasons…
    - And then the big one; LFL still expects Kylo to be treated as a protagonist by the audience, where relating to and understanding the POV (even for villains) is paramount in modern and even most ancient storytelling… but he remains unrelatable and incomprehensible, meaning the Skywalker family story is ending with a wet fart of an ending thanks to him, and we’re be better off if he didn’t exist.

    That last bit is where I think things become untenable, and where Kylo doesn’t deserve to be in the same sentence as Anakin/Vader, Jacen/Caedus, or even other villains like Maul, Palpatine or even Dooku; protagonists require standards Kylo is well below, in part because he’s below the requirements of even most antagonists.

    Again, I think the thing is that, because he’s treated as a protagonist by the other characters and story, his motivations become intrinsic to the ST, and without them, it remains hollow and meaningless.

    If he’s just an antagonist (impossible with the Solo connection, but work with me here) then his motivation don’t matter that much, but once you treat him as a protagonist, they matter too much for the casual disinterest LFL has for it.

    I think the thing is that you’re point is accurate… but is then ignored by the film and by Rey, which/who proceeds to treat Kylo as though he *was* an innocent victim of Luke, and thus was “created” by Luke, and thus doesn’t deserve our condemnation and still “requires” our interest and compassion… and, for the sake of the film’s priorities and storytelling, that we have more compassion and interest in Kylo than on Rey or Luke, or even the overall Galaxy.



    All of this is to point out that I think that, conceptually, some people see Kylo as being a “tragic hero” in the ancient sense - where “hero” just mean protagonist, and where a “tragic hero” is soemtimes merely a flawed protagonist doomed by fate, regardless of whether they’re “good,” “complex,” “admirable,”… or not.

    It’s a simpler, more banal calculus - Kylo matters only because he’s a Skywalker, and actual assessments of his personality, flaws, motivations, etc, don’t matter, but he “outranks” everyone and everything around him.
     
  15. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Even IF this is Ben's turning point, all because he uncle snuck into his room and held a saber above his head, that is NO reason to turn to the dark side. A good person would have defended themselves, and then alerted the others, their parents, whomever, that Luke Skywalker has gone crazy.

    They would not immediately murder everyone in sight.

    The writing is inconsistent. And worse, lazy and uncaring in being consistent.
     
  16. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Good. Then we can agree that Rey did *not* require, and did *not* receive any instruction, guidance or training in defeating Kylo Ren. She *did* speak to Maz for 30 seconds, but that does not explain or establish Rey‘s ability.
     
  17. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I didn't state she did.
     
  18. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I’m not sure the film wants that to be the ‘explanation’ for Ben’s turn. I think it’s done via several flashbacks to intentionally mislead the audience into thinking Ben was pushed when he wasn’t. Point being, the final flashback is showing that Ben has been rumbled, and I guess in Ben’s head he *has* to attack at that moment because he knows Luke knows… That the film doesn’t explain this adequately is, as you mention, down to inconsistent writing and Johnson thinking he’s being cleverer than he actually is with the set up of it all (IMO).
     
  19. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    No I stated that… and then you went on a tangent about Maz instructing Rey in the force and that it was FACT.
     
  20. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    We're attacking this from the same place. However, I think RJ definitely wants to lay blame at Luke. He's mentioned before that being influenced by philosophers who essentially say that men are failed by the older generation. Luke and Han both failed Ben Solo. One was a horrible teacher. The other a weak father. So of course he has his protagonist Kylo, and his other protagonist, Rey - take up the viewpoint that while Ben had a dark heart, it was Luke who turned him into his monstrous state. We all have dark hearts, Ben, the audience, even Luke. It's our most basic state. But Luke's failure as a teacher, as an uncle, as a Jedi, whatever, was the catalyst for what happened to Ben Solo. If Luke had been successful he would have molded that dark heart into a real hero.

    So while you and I can see through that nonsense, the movie wants it that way. Desperately. RJ wants it that way. When Kylo and Luke face off, I think RJ ultimately wants us to feel very sympathetic towards Kylo. We're certainly not supposed to be sympathetic towards Luke. He's essentially the antagonist in this story. Kylo is treated as if he's most relatable character. We're all him. We've all been failed by the older generation of men. He may be wrong in that moment. But it's not his fault. It's Luke's. And so he has Luke troll him, distract him, and has Luke phoning in his heroics, from a very safe space very far away, under a mask of who he wants the galaxy to see. But it's not his truth. Which brings his apology under scrutiny.

    The result of forcing this viewpoint upon the story is total inconsistent storytelling.
     
  21. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    So he would have to of been faking being asleep as he was planning an attack? otherwise why sleep at all? He slept because It was just another night at the time. He slept because he wasn't planning on leaving at that time

    I don't think he had committed to anything. But i could see him being at his most vulnerable to make that decision when Luke came in and held a saber over him. Luke said Ben seemed afraid. probably because he just turned around and see his uncle holding a saber over him.

    When it comes to Snokes part in it all. he just had to get into Bens head. play on his fears, worries and insecurities. And all that had to happen was Luke needed to make that 1 mistake to fulfil it. If Ben was in any mental struggle at all... that was probably the scare that did it. As Yoda said to anakin about being careful when sensing the future. Luke didn't try to talk to Ben, he just reacted out of fear. Luke isn't the perfect Jedi fans wanted him to be.

    In the end, what the story has become is likely how Palpatine once again manipulated his way through the jedi. Which probably does mean playing Luke into making that mistake.

    There is alot that happens in a life time. just because you can't picture it, doesn't mean nothing happens.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
  22. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I know I'm sort of on repeat here, but I think it’s a case of a weird smorgasbord of Johnson trying to write Kylo in a romantic story while trying to deconstruct romanticism everywhere else - we’re shifting interpretations, priorities, and creative philosophy depending on which character is being talked about.

    If it’s anyone else, the film is mocking romanticism, idealism, and holding people to a very mundane standard… but once Kylo pops up, he gets a sincerely fantastical, idealized and romanticized treatment.

    It's like the films going:

    - (On Luke) “Well, of course Luke made a mundane, understandable mistake that’s minor; sometimes things just escalate based off small mistakes, y’know?”

    - (The second that Kylo is brought up) “And lo, fate turned against the scion of the House of Skywalker, as he was forced into villainy by spurious accusations, and his epic despair echoes through eternity!”

    - (Once Kylo has dropped away again) “…So you see, fantasy is a bit stupid, and we have to take responsibly for the choices we make with our agency… which will of course be based in the banal.”
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2023
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  23. wreath

    wreath Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 21, 2021
    Honestly where dose the privielge life come from he was told he would do great things and so so for like thats pressure so i don't think your point really understands my point or even your points which to me aren't that good enough to say oh kylo had no chance.
     
  24. wreath

    wreath Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 21, 2021
    Why dose privilege has to do with anything you obviously just don't like the character you could just said that and i would be okay when have difference in opinion.
     
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Privileged life: born to parents who loved him, had plenty of money and had position. Never wanted for anything material nor did he want for love.

    That has everything to do with his decision to turn, because nobody has given any substantial reason why he would need anything else. As far as “pressure to be great”, assuming that even happened since it was never in the films—OK, and? The logical path for that would be to aspire to greatness, which he had resources to achieve, due to his privilege.

    And my discussing the character is OK even when I say more than “we just have a difference of opinion.” People who disagree with you are not just going to be quiet.

    You still haven’t said how Kylo is more human than Anakin, or how he is relatable or sympathetic. What is there to sympathize with?
     
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