ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

okay yeah i figured it just happens now on every site

 

Someone can plan to attack and and still sleep. A plan isn't necessarily an immediate thing.

 

Which was my point i.e. that you deliberately go off at a tangent to raise spurious points or to deflect. That you then apologise and then proceed with the same schtick, makes me wonder if you're just trying to troll. What exactly were you apologising for if you're willing to keep pushing the same point?

 

Yes I basically agree with that... (and what @DarkGingerJedi stated) which is why I mention Johnson believing he's more clever than he actually is. I think (and this is only my interpretation), Johnson ultimately wants Kylo as the villain of the piece (or TLJ at least), but also wants to make his motivation opaque... which his why he (Johnson) tries to establish some empathy for Kylo's position... hence the whole 'Luke pushed him to it' angle (which is misplaced at best IMO). Johnson wants the audience to feel conflicted about Kylo... was he really pushed to the darkside? Was it Luke's fault? Could Kylo be redeemed? Will he fall in love with Rey etc.? But ultimately, I think Johnson is just yanking our chain. As Abrams plays with us via pointless mystery boxes, Johnson plays with us via pointless upending of expectations. The net result being that there's a real inconsistent take on the main characters from one film to the next... and by the end of the ST, it's a real challenge to determine why the main characters behaved as they did and what their motivations actually were.

 

No. I stuck to what I was always arguing. You didn't pick up on it. Just like I didn't pick up on what you were arguing. I apologized, because I did it. But I didn't commit a moral sin or crime, to my knowledge, so I think it's not important. I do it now because it's what I was arguing and I don't think what I said was wrong in the context of my perspective.

 

That's not correct... and it's a fact that Chewbacca is a Wookie, it's in the film.
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The above is what you have a tendency to do. So please desist with it... or (as already stated) if you're not clear, just ask me a question. I don't have an issue with Maz delivering some cod and disposable philosophy to Rey... but that never had anything to do with my initial post about Rey not needing any training to defeat Kylo Ren.

 

To prepare an attack doesnt require you to be in the place you are gonna attack either. Let alone asleep. To asleep suggests a sense of comfort.

 

If I'd mentioned Chewie in the comment and spoke on him being a wookie, you may have a point. But I didn't, so that's not accurate. Your comment absolutely did speak on Rey, her using the force and whether or not she had instruction.

This is the flow of that argument:

You said, in the next post after mine, that Rey taught herself that rushing with anger does not pay (nothing here is in regards to her beating Kylo, though that may be what you were suggesting in regards to her not learning her lesson), so I replied with this:

Where I said that Rey isn't developed to teach herself that rushing in with anger doesn't pay.

You replied with this, where you said that Rey doesn't need to be taught anything.

I restated my original point here, by saying that she didn't teach herself anything, because her learning to not rush in with anger isn't developed in that scene.

You stayed on the same argument here about her having innate knowledge.

I pointed out here that there's no development of innate knowledge in learning from her anger in that moment.

Here you said she calms herself and only now do you speak on beating Kylo, which wasn't said in any of the previous posts and wasn't relevant to what I was discussing. You introduced this new element into the discussion, while I stayed on what I was speaking about, admittedly not catching what you were focusing on. Again, I'm sorry about that.

I stayed on my point about Rey's use of the force, and disagreed with your point above about her calming herself.

You continued on your stance that had nothing to do with what I was talking about, that you introduced, with Rey controlling the duel (I assume you were speaking on beating Kylo).

I didn't notice your change of direction in the discussion, and here continued about Rey connecting to the force, in response to you saying she doesn't require anyone to instruct her to point it out, assuming, incorrectly, that you were discussing what I was: Rey's use of the force in that fight.

And, in response to that, I think you seem to have sought to use belittling remarks as a reply to me, for no good reason.

As I've shown here, in the flow of this current discussion, I replied to a post made by you, with no quoting of anyone and followed the structure of what your words said in that post and continued that discussion throughout. You introduced a different aspect of the discussion part way through that discussion, while I stayed on the topic of the words I was using. Then I think you seem to become antagonistic without provocation.

 

I don't know if I'm just getting more intolerant of petty people, or whether you're actively trolling (or a combination)...

 

I'm pointing out that you started the introduction of a new aspect into this discussion, not me. I replied to your post, in regards to Rey using the force and not learning from her anger and stayed on that idea. You didn't and made what I think are petty remarks, while I made none.

 

I think that's a natural consequence of the ST, from film to film, not really knowing whom the characters are and what their individual journeys are about. Ben Solo, being the son of Leia and Han (and being the only 'new' Skywalker blood), by virtue, makes him very important to the story. I think Johnson tries to give him 'consequence' as a character (something he lacked in TFA... other than being the one in the cool mask who kills Han Solo), but Johnson's efforts just further muddy what his function in the wider story is supposed to be. But you are right in that it's Johnson whom spends more screen time elevating Kylo Ren and cementing that Kylo/Rey dynamic. Ultimately we'd have to have a conversation with Rian Johnson to understand his true intentions, but I imagine even he didn't really truly know what he was attempting to do... given that there was seemingly little direction from the top as to the direction of travel.

 

Your replies on this matter have been both fatuous and pedantic, and your apology hollow.

 

I certainly wasn't interested in it...

 

Having watched TFA again, I came back around to how little Kylo is like Han and Leia. He doesn't sound like either, he adopts the most bizarre accent. You'd think the world's greatest living actor, Adam Driver, would have wanted to work some Han and Leia into his performance. Hayden studied Vader's mannerisms. In hindsight, putting on Han's charms when talking to Rey with his mask off might have helped. Really letting his guard down and flying a little more casual during the catwalk scene with Han might have gone a long way toward making him more sympathetic, too. There was a real chance for a James Dean "you're tearing me apart" breakdown, rather than playing it cold, but what do I know. They should have just played him much younger than they did. Establishing him as a 30 year old was just another nail in the coffin.

At least they gave him the Harrison finger point.

 

Yeah, he doesn't have the charm, cockiness, sarcasm. bravado, courage, or dumb luck of his father. And he doesn't have the intelligence, wit, gruffness, or natural born leader of his mom.

He'a also not like his Uncle, who's earnest, hopeful, impatient, calm, and has a sense of wanting adventure, family, restoring the Jedi Order.

He doesn't even have any of his grandfather's personalities characteristics either, which is even stranger since he wants to be him, and is scared the same fate will befall him.

One could almost argue that it's a creative choice that Kylo is his own man. His own character. Totally new and unlike his family. But in truth, it doesn't actually seem like a creative choice. The best JJ can give us is a mute Ben Solo who .... get this ... shrugs just like Han. See!!!! He's just like his dad after all. So much depth.

A better story might have one where Ben is a perfect mix of his parents. Maybe to his annoyance even. He's a natural born leader. He was looked up to in the Academy, thought of as the one who would lead all the students once Luke was retired. Now, he's leading the FO, and oddly enough, they look up to him as well. He's gotten them where they are today. Maybe it was his idea to attack the Nr, and he constantly inspires them to fight another day. All in the name of evil. And instead of being a raging chaotic lunatic, he's charming, cocky, sarcastic. And so when Rey meets him, it almost seems believable that she'd fall for his seduction.

And they could still have the running from temptation theme. They could still make him a little nuts and chaotic. But at least the Ben Solo part would be there underneath the evil. (Just as it was with Vader)

 

With Anakin (in the PT specifically) and despite some very clunky dialogue and delivery, he is a complex character. His characterisation is a result of the complex situations he finds himself in... and Hayden (IMO) plays him with a nuance and empathy that often gets overlooked by many. Most of this is missing with Kylo/Ben, who seems to be a character devised primarily as a proto-darth Vader. This is the version of Anakin that Abrams and Kasdan believe we should have got in the prequels. However, by creating a character as a reaction to, rather than an organic extension of, Kylo/Ben becomes a character devoid of motivation and utility... and as such, is a flat uninteresting one (outside of his mask). He's the distillation of the ST in a single character i.e. nothing underneath the surface. Vapid and prosaic.

 

Basically one with no real motives or goals or origins.

 

That's because when JJ watches ANH, he only sees a villain. A great one. One of the best. But...he doesn't see all the backstory and built in motivation that ANH actually gives us. In the video where JJ expresses his love for mystery boxes, he explains that while watching ANH, he claims its all mystery boxes. Obi-wan explaining the force: Mystery box. Check. Obi-wan talking about the clone ways: Mystery box. Check. Obi-wan talking about Vader: Mystery box. Check. And it shows that he fundamentally doesn't understand the SW story, nor does he really understand mystery boxes because none of the things he thinks are mystery boxes in ANH, are in fact mystery boxes. It's planned out storytelling. And Lucas certainly didn't have it all figured out, but he knew enough about set up and pay off and JJ only seems really interested in half of this equation.

Which is why we get nothing explained in TFA. And what we do get is vague and contradictory. Kylo reveres his grandfather, Vader, for some reason, and thinks he's talking to him, despite knowing that he died as Anakin. And his deepest fear is that he won't be strong enough like Vader was, even though he also fears being weak and seduced to the light just like ... Vader was.

JJ just wants a Vader, as he sees him. Cool. Dark. Mysterious. Villain. Badass. Who's on his way to becoming Vader. OOooooh that's a clever hook. Yeah, pats himself on the back. Even though it's clear he's been evil for quite some time. So he's gotta kill his family so that he doesn't get tempted. And as a result he's all chaos and rage. And then everyone pretends we've never seen this before.