Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel
, Jan 3, 2020.
okay yeah i figured it just happens now on every site
Yep, it's possible that it's just nervous laughter. Or maybe they're being tickled as they type. Could be laughing gas.
Look, if some of our members are The Joker, posting from Arkham, or are Fozzy Bear or just have the charming personality of Babu Frik I personally want their participation encouraged.
The problem is those elements of spoken dialogue are contradicted by MASSIVE substance and context elsewhere.
Snoke, I’d agree, should provide a more sympathetic example of at least decent manipulation to outright brainwashing… but the dude (Johnson) who first demands that we and Rey value and sympathize with Kylo more than Rey or Kylo’ victims (including his own parents) has no time for Snoke, and clearly doesn’t think there’s any reason to explain how Kylo gets manipulated.
Ben’s parents and Luke bring up an issue because we know for a fact they’re far, far better people Ben, so even if they didn’t love him, he’d come off as a petulant, murderous monster in comparison; he’d sort of need them to be monsters towards him to actually make him sympathetic…
…but worse for him, Luke clearly had good reason to be terrified of a man who so easily embraces murder and torture or others, but is still soft and favorable towards Kylo, or else he!s stop him, and Han and Leia clearly selflessly love him, and clearly all three (Luke, Han, and Leia) tried harder to raise him well than Kylo tries to not be a murderous ****.
A life of privilege is already immediately a liability towards sympathizing with a monster - which Kylo unequivocally is, as Vader was - but a life of privilege plus a loving family make it almost an impossibility to sympathize with any monster who’s still portrayed as rational… and LFL clearly wants Kylo’s o be portrayed as rational enough to invest in as a POV character.
It’s like how Jack Horner is portrayed as a laughably evil and petty figure in that Puss in Boots movie - except at least he doesn’t expect people to care about his feelings.
And a life of privilege plus a loving family that the monster than tries to kill for his own power becomes a recipe loathsomeness - it makes Kylo a card-carrying villain.
The only Sith who really comes off as comparable to Ben/Kylo is Palpatine, for crying outloud.
Someone can plan to attack and and still sleep. A plan isn't necessarily an immediate thing.
Which was my point i.e. that you deliberately go off at a tangent to raise spurious points or to deflect. That you then apologise and then proceed with the same schtick, makes me wonder if you're just trying to troll. What exactly were you apologising for if you're willing to keep pushing the same point?
Yes I basically agree with that... (and what @DarkGingerJedi stated) which is why I mention Johnson believing he's more clever than he actually is. I think (and this is only my interpretation), Johnson ultimately wants Kylo as the villain of the piece (or TLJ at least), but also wants to make his motivation opaque... which his why he (Johnson) tries to establish some empathy for Kylo's position... hence the whole 'Luke pushed him to it' angle (which is misplaced at best IMO). Johnson wants the audience to feel conflicted about Kylo... was he really pushed to the darkside? Was it Luke's fault? Could Kylo be redeemed? Will he fall in love with Rey etc.? But ultimately, I think Johnson is just yanking our chain. As Abrams plays with us via pointless mystery boxes, Johnson plays with us via pointless upending of expectations. The net result being that there's a real inconsistent take on the main characters from one film to the next... and by the end of the ST, it's a real challenge to determine why the main characters behaved as they did and what their motivations actually were.
No. I stuck to what I was always arguing. You didn't pick up on it. Just like I didn't pick up on what you were arguing. I apologized, because I did it. But I didn't commit a moral sin or crime, to my knowledge, so I think it's not important. I do it now because it's what I was arguing and I don't think what I said was wrong in the context of my perspective.
That's not correct... and it's a fact that Chewbacca is a Wookie, it's in the film.
The above is what you have a tendency to do. So please desist with it... or (as already stated) if you're not clear, just ask me a question. I don't have an issue with Maz delivering some cod and disposable philosophy to Rey... but that never had anything to do with my initial post about Rey not needing any training to defeat Kylo Ren.
To prepare an attack doesnt require you to be in the place you are gonna attack either. Let alone asleep. To asleep suggests a sense of comfort.
If I'd mentioned Chewie in the comment and spoke on him being a wookie, you may have a point. But I didn't, so that's not accurate. Your comment absolutely did speak on Rey, her using the force and whether or not she had instruction.
This is the flow of that argument:
You said, in the next post after mine, that Rey taught herself that rushing with anger does not pay (nothing here is in regards to her beating Kylo, though that may be what you were suggesting in regards to her not learning her lesson), so I replied with this:
Where I said that Rey isn't developed to teach herself that rushing in with anger doesn't pay.
You replied with this, where you said that Rey doesn't need to be taught anything.
I restated my original point here, by saying that she didn't teach herself anything, because her learning to not rush in with anger isn't developed in that scene.
You stayed on the same argument here about her having innate knowledge.
I pointed out here that there's no development of innate knowledge in learning from her anger in that moment.
Here you said she calms herself and only now do you speak on beating Kylo, which wasn't said in any of the previous posts and wasn't relevant to what I was discussing. You introduced this new element into the discussion, while I stayed on what I was speaking about, admittedly not catching what you were focusing on. Again, I'm sorry about that.
I stayed on my point about Rey's use of the force, and disagreed with your point above about her calming herself.
You continued on your stance that had nothing to do with what I was talking about, that you introduced, with Rey controlling the duel (I assume you were speaking on beating Kylo).
I didn't notice your change of direction in the discussion, and here continued about Rey connecting to the force, in response to you saying she doesn't require anyone to instruct her to point it out, assuming, incorrectly, that you were discussing what I was: Rey's use of the force in that fight.
And, in response to that, I think you seem to have sought to use belittling remarks as a reply to me, for no good reason.
As I've shown here, in the flow of this current discussion, I replied to a post made by you, with no quoting of anyone and followed the structure of what your words said in that post and continued that discussion throughout. You introduced a different aspect of the discussion part way through that discussion, while I stayed on the topic of the words I was using. Then I think you seem to become antagonistic without provocation.
I don't know if I'm just getting more intolerant of petty people, or whether you're actively trolling (or a combination)...
I'm pointing out that you started the introduction of a new aspect into this discussion, not me. I replied to your post, in regards to Rey using the force and not learning from her anger and stayed on that idea. You didn't and made what I think are petty remarks, while I made none.
The one objection I have is that while I 100% agree that Johnson is "playing himself" in his subversions and subversions-of-subversions... I think he is still, for whatever reason and through whatever route, settling down at a point where Kylo is still who he views as the protagonist of the ST's new generation of characters, though one still aligned with villainy, as you noted.
The opacity of Kylo's motivations prevents him from working as a protagonist, make no mistake, but the fixation and focus on him still says that Johnson sees him as the core character of the story.
I think that's a natural consequence of the ST, from film to film, not really knowing whom the characters are and what their individual journeys are about. Ben Solo, being the son of Leia and Han (and being the only 'new' Skywalker blood), by virtue, makes him very important to the story. I think Johnson tries to give him 'consequence' as a character (something he lacked in TFA... other than being the one in the cool mask who kills Han Solo), but Johnson's efforts just further muddy what his function in the wider story is supposed to be. But you are right in that it's Johnson whom spends more screen time elevating Kylo Ren and cementing that Kylo/Rey dynamic. Ultimately we'd have to have a conversation with Rian Johnson to understand his true intentions, but I imagine even he didn't really truly know what he was attempting to do... given that there was seemingly little direction from the top as to the direction of travel.
There's an interesting contrast between how Johnson wrote Luke in TLJ versus how he wrote everyone else, Kylo included; his Luke, perhaps because he knew he was going to kill him off and was maybe a bit intimidated by his pop culture importance (though not enough), actually has a much clearer story with clearer endgoals as well. He knew he wanted to do a version of the "Old Master gets his groove back" story mixed with some deconstruction and film-class "man pain" cliches, which meant that his Luke had clear motivations and narrative arcs compared to the rest of the film's more "Got to stay ahead of the audience's expectations at all times!" madness.
But his Kylo is also the only part of the film where Johnson seems to have a genuine interest in the romanticism Star Wars is usually associated with - even if he wants to again juke expectations and still only give a dissertation on how to subvert expectations, even the ones you yourself have planted. Kylo, whether he's supposed to be revealed as a romantic figure or deconstructed as one, is still the only character who Johnson is making comments on as being a "metaphor for adolescence" or whatever, in a film that otherwise has a lot of acidic and blunt rejection of romanticism.
This just further muddies the issue with the motivations for Kylo and Luke's state of mind during the Hut incident - we've got the only character who's being written with any reality in Luke during that scene clashing with the only character who still has a fantasy treatment the film won't quite reject, making it even more impossible to decipher what specific thing we're going for in that scene.
Your replies on this matter have been both fatuous and pedantic, and your apology hollow.
How's about you both stop, since clearly neither of you can stop trying to win an argument nobody else is interested in?
I certainly wasn't interested in it...
Having watched TFA again, I came back around to how little Kylo is like Han and Leia. He doesn't sound like either, he adopts the most bizarre accent. You'd think the world's greatest living actor, Adam Driver, would have wanted to work some Han and Leia into his performance. Hayden studied Vader's mannerisms. In hindsight, putting on Han's charms when talking to Rey with his mask off might have helped. Really letting his guard down and flying a little more casual during the catwalk scene with Han might have gone a long way toward making him more sympathetic, too. There was a real chance for a James Dean "you're tearing me apart" breakdown, rather than playing it cold, but what do I know. They should have just played him much younger than they did. Establishing him as a 30 year old was just another nail in the coffin.
At least they gave him the Harrison finger point.
Yeah, he doesn't have the charm, cockiness, sarcasm. bravado, courage, or dumb luck of his father. And he doesn't have the intelligence, wit, gruffness, or natural born leader of his mom.
He'a also not like his Uncle, who's earnest, hopeful, impatient, calm, and has a sense of wanting adventure, family, restoring the Jedi Order.
He doesn't even have any of his grandfather's personalities characteristics either, which is even stranger since he wants to be him, and is scared the same fate will befall him.
One could almost argue that it's a creative choice that Kylo is his own man. His own character. Totally new and unlike his family. But in truth, it doesn't actually seem like a creative choice. The best JJ can give us is a mute Ben Solo who .... get this ... shrugs just like Han. See!!!! He's just like his dad after all. So much depth.
A better story might have one where Ben is a perfect mix of his parents. Maybe to his annoyance even. He's a natural born leader. He was looked up to in the Academy, thought of as the one who would lead all the students once Luke was retired. Now, he's leading the FO, and oddly enough, they look up to him as well. He's gotten them where they are today. Maybe it was his idea to attack the Nr, and he constantly inspires them to fight another day. All in the name of evil. And instead of being a raging chaotic lunatic, he's charming, cocky, sarcastic. And so when Rey meets him, it almost seems believable that she'd fall for his seduction.
And they could still have the running from temptation theme. They could still make him a little nuts and chaotic. But at least the Ben Solo part would be there underneath the evil. (Just as it was with Vader)
If all I saw of Anakin was the annoying ***hole in the initial scene in Padme’s apartment—and I do recognize that with good reason that was all many people saw of him—my user name would be different.
Anakin in the PT and especially in TCW had many fun moments, had a sarcastic smart***ery that I can see in Leia as well.
Kylo was the Anakin that embarrassed Jar-Jar, for three movies.
And he was supposed to be the oft-cited-here ‘better version of PT Anakin’—lol, how exactly?
With Anakin (in the PT specifically) and despite some very clunky dialogue and delivery, he is a complex character. His characterisation is a result of the complex situations he finds himself in... and Hayden (IMO) plays him with a nuance and empathy that often gets overlooked by many. Most of this is missing with Kylo/Ben, who seems to be a character devised primarily as a proto-darth Vader. This is the version of Anakin that Abrams and Kasdan believe we should have got in the prequels. However, by creating a character as a reaction to, rather than an organic extension of, Kylo/Ben becomes a character devoid of motivation and utility... and as such, is a flat uninteresting one (outside of his mask). He's the distillation of the ST in a single character i.e. nothing underneath the surface. Vapid and prosaic.
Basically one with no real motives or goals or origins.
That's because when JJ watches ANH, he only sees a villain. A great one. One of the best. But...he doesn't see all the backstory and built in motivation that ANH actually gives us. In the video where JJ expresses his love for mystery boxes, he explains that while watching ANH, he claims its all mystery boxes. Obi-wan explaining the force: Mystery box. Check. Obi-wan talking about the clone ways: Mystery box. Check. Obi-wan talking about Vader: Mystery box. Check. And it shows that he fundamentally doesn't understand the SW story, nor does he really understand mystery boxes because none of the things he thinks are mystery boxes in ANH, are in fact mystery boxes. It's planned out storytelling. And Lucas certainly didn't have it all figured out, but he knew enough about set up and pay off and JJ only seems really interested in half of this equation.
Which is why we get nothing explained in TFA. And what we do get is vague and contradictory. Kylo reveres his grandfather, Vader, for some reason, and thinks he's talking to him, despite knowing that he died as Anakin. And his deepest fear is that he won't be strong enough like Vader was, even though he also fears being weak and seduced to the light just like ... Vader was.
JJ just wants a Vader, as he sees him. Cool. Dark. Mysterious. Villain. Badass. Who's on his way to becoming Vader. OOooooh that's a clever hook. Yeah, pats himself on the back. Even though it's clear he's been evil for quite some time. So he's gotta kill his family so that he doesn't get tempted. And as a result he's all chaos and rage. And then everyone pretends we've never seen this before.