ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

I’ve not seen those quotes from Abrams… but yes, I agree. He’s mistaking ‘mystery’ for the rather basic elements of exposition and background. I know Abrams has quite an unsophisticated sense of cinema, but his misunderstanding here would take his ineptitude to a new level.

 

I think Kylo was in my dream last night. Weird.

 

Going back way before TROS, to the discussions post-TLJ, I remember the arguments about how IX was going to go down, and how it should go down. I remember people saying that there was no way they'd kill off Kylo Ren unredeemed. Can't do that to the last Skywalker. There was a lot of denial, because that's what a lot of people wanted to see, but I knew they weren't going to do that. Indeed, the narrative of killing off the last Skywalker unredeemed is pretty damn bad, especially to go along with all the other destroyed legacies in the ST (at least it would be consistent!), but seeing how utterly bland and ineffective Kylo's redemption was, maybe viciously putting down Kylo the monster would have made for a much more viscerally satisfying conclusion to the trilogy. Trainwreck narrative end, but more entertaining than what we got. Seeing how JJ and RJ just didn't get Star Wars in any way, it would have been fitting for JJ to wrap it up so oblivious to what Star Wars is about.

 

Even if they'd only decided on a Kylo/Ben redemption story as part of TROS development, they chose the most lacklustre and superficial way of doing this.

 

whole problem with his redemption and death is that its just a bloody knockoff of VI but inferior version of it. The whole ST is like this, where OT is better version of the same story.

Basically Another Throne Room, Big Space Battle Outside
Palpatine AGAIN
Kylo=Vader
Rey=Luke

but at end of day, father sacrificing himself to save the only person who thought he can be redemeed, his son will never be topped.

his redemption was really badly done and so too was his death too.

 

I think Kylo hating his own family had a thing to do with why this is.

in end, good girl saving bad boy in what is a toxic relationship is what redeems him, cringe fanfic worthy.

 

Agreed... for me (if we go down the redemption route) the only real way to achieve a Kylo redemption, in a satisfying way, is either by Rey (but with her being a sibling), or via Leia. His redemption in TROS is just a reflection of the lacking of planning/forward thinking. The only other option that comes to mind is that his redemption isn't facilitated by anyone else but himself (and I can see the creative mileage in that)... and we have a Kylo Ren who can't live with the fact that he killed his father, so we end up with a scenario where Kylo sacrifices himself in an act of atonement for patricide. That scenario doesn't bring redemption for Ben per se, but he does atone.

 

I kind of think the best redemption story in the one built off of Anakin's redemption.

If say after ROTJ, the galaxy finds out that Vader was Anakin Skywalker and suddenly Leia and Luke's family reputation are ruined. That although Luke saved his father, on a personal level, the sins of the family need to dealt with. Consequences matter. So Leia tries to build alliances for a New Republic (or something), even though she's on the outside of things, and Luke goes into exile to rebuild the Jedi. But in either case the galaxy decides to move on. As if they think they don't need the Skywalkers or the Jedi or may be even a NR. Maybe things are a mess.

And Ben Solo, as a new Jedi, is determined to show everyone that that Skywalkers are good, despite the past history, and wants make things right again.

The ST should have been a post redemption story.

 

That would require imagination and not “pew pew Rebels vs Empire”

 

It's an interesting idea, and would have made for an epic ending, but it's pretty flawed in that no one cares what the GFFA thinks. We don't care about the Skywalkers public image. The audience would have no need to see the Skywalkers redeemed, because the audience doesn't have a negative opinion of the Skywalkers to begin with. Our intro to the Skywalkers was Luke, and he is and always will be the character that defines them. It's a story that's strongly grounded within the reality of the GFFA, but not one that has any relevance or personal interest to us. It's impersonal. I mean, how does the redemption of the Skywalker family name apply to any of us? It doesn't. It's a bit shallow in the way PR usually is.

 

This is precisely what happens in Claudia Gray's Bloodline and Johnson had knowledge of it. Good grief, Gray practically handed them a good basis for a post ROTJ GFFA story. In the book, the GFFA did not give Leia or Luke any slack for any of the good they had done before the revelation of Vader as their father. Leia loses all influence so when she tries to warn the New Republic about her FO discoveries, no one wants to listen. Claudia herself said that some of the story ideas and elements came straight from Johnson.

 

Not really. Because Johnson isn't interested in a post redemption story, or the further development of one we have, he's interested in a blaming the OT3 for being crap heroes/parents/uncles, so that Kylo can be redeemed or at least viewed sympathetically. RJ wants to see Luke and Leia be destroyed so that Kylo Ren isn't to blame for being evil.

Whereas I'm saying is that the galaxy's POV here isn't what the OT3 or the audience POV is, and the ST becomes about the Skywalkers - along with that new generation - finally making it all right again. and rebuilding what was destroyed. That's inherently not RJ or the ST.

 

A New Senate that is suspicious of both Luke and Leia, on discovering their lineage, has always been an interesting idea. I think the only challenge of having that in the sequels is the time setting… as I think it has more relevance directly after the events of ROTJ, rather than circa 30 years later, when those ‘suspicions’ probably would have already been resolved. Either way, it’s the kind of narrative complexity that is absent in the ST.

 

Kylo Ren and Rey’s relationship was the best part of ST. Why they chose to destroy it in TROS baffles me.

 

How did they destroy it? He was pretty hypocritical in TLJ. I actually found him better and more sympathetic in TROS.

 

His death.

Kylo should have lived. Now redemption means physical death. I wanted him to live a life of penance like Revan did.

 

He killed Han, Luke and Leia. He should have stayed in his hole forever. Life of penance? Really, how's that going to work? "Hi, I murdered my father and was part of the fascist First Order. Please let me help you."

Not so much.

 

He killed Han, but Han returned as spirit to guide him.
He didn’t kill Luke, Luke Force Projected, killing himself. He sacrificed himself.
Leia died reaching her son, she chose to do this out of love.

 

For penance to work, the movie would have had to end far far far differently.

Almost as if, say, Rey's gift of life to Ben is also something of a curse. Or at least has consequence (which is a major failing of the ST over all). Force immortality comes with a heavy price. Ben can't die now...and so he wanders the galaxy, alone, in exile, doing good deeds, trying to pay off his (and his family's) sins. He isn't a Jedi. He isn't a dark sider. He isn't part of the living really either. He's just working on paying off those sins...for a long long time. Perhaps until the Force says enough. Rey's gift of life, is part punishment. And that becomes a major lesson in and of itself.

Instead, the writers made Rey end the movie all alone, wandering into the sunset. Far removed from her friends, and her new sense of family. It just makes no sense whatsoever. All because the writer wanted to ape the OT and use the twin suns setting ... once again.

 

That could work. What I envisioned is Disney could make a follow up series to TRIS with Daisy and Adam.

 

The redemption and subsequent death is so completely unearned and meaningless, it probably would have been better to keep him alive. That said, a life of penance works better when it's lived alone. It can't work within a romantic relationship.

 

Han isn't a spirit, he's an imagining of Kylo. Or he would have been with Luke and Leia at the end. Instead, he's in a ditch somewhere because the ST made it abundantly clear that the Skywalker Twins never gave a damn about him.

Luke sacrificed himself - why is he in that position again? Oh, yeah, Kylo. Frankly, he should have shown up and cut Kylo down for real, if he gave a damn about Han and Leia. Well, he should have used a blaster instead of a saber back when he sensed Kylo was dark, but that's another story.

Leia should have murdered his sorry butt, the same way she was going to in TFA until Han waltzed in. And again, she had to die for whatever reason, WHY? Oh, yeah, Kylo.

He's responsible for their deaths.

 

Han was killed by Kylo.
Padme killed by Vader.
See a pattern?

Luke didn’t have to show up via Force Projection. And remember he created Kylo, standing over his nephew ready to kill him (video below):



Luke has a hand in Kylo becoming what he became, he says so. Hence why he gives his life to face Ben one more time.