ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

Was rewatching TFA and Kylo Ren comed across very much like Dracula, especially in his interrogating Rey scene.

 

pretty funny that Kylo dies without any Legacy except for him being a villain.

at least Anakin had his children Luke/Leia and Ahsoka for legacy.
heck even Dooku who wanted to destroy the Jedi left behind one of the Greatest Jedi Legacy of all Times as Jinn, Kenobi, Anakin, Ahsoka, Luke, Rey etc all come from his Jedi Lineage, lol.

Kylo, nothing he got his 3/3 family killed just to "redeem" himself and he never trained anyone. So dies leaving nothing behind.

 

He saved Rey's life. That's his legacy.

 

that's not real legacy. Anakin saved Luke and didn't change everyone hating Vader. Anakin's legacy was Darth Vader, most people aren't gonna care about Clone Wars heroics some 25 years ago over the atrocities that followed. But at least with Ahsoka and his children he did leave a + legacy behind. So although his own legacy is tarnished he still had some + from it all.

and remember that according to the Galaxy Luke Skywalker entered the Death Star II to face Palps+Vader and only 1 person left out of there alive. Even FO sold it like Luke Skywalker is a boogeyman of sorts.

same for Rey, she entered Exegol where Palps was and Kylo arrived later and only she left out there alive. I mean that's one issue of ST just rehashes the OT beats.

from a Galaxy Historical POV Kylo Ren has no legacy but evil and death. He's also not related to Rey nor did he ever teach her anything.

 

Sure it's real. She died/was dying, he brought her back. If it hadn't been for him, none of the things she'll do later on would've happened.
That's his + legacy.
What the galaxy at large thinks of him is irrelevant.

 

Of course it's artificial. The narrative didn't demand it at all. But they did it anyway and now it's there.
It is what it is.

 

Lucasfilm seemed super intent on wiping out the entire Skywalker Family and this is where the problem comes from, they put themselves in corner. Kill Kylo but he's the last Skywalker if he doesn't redeem himself it will make the story super grim and sadistic (it already is). And also JJ+Terrio said they made Rey a Skywalker only because again the other issue this is Skywalker Saga but it ends up being Palpatine vs Palpatine and last person standing is a Palpatine, one had to give the Skywalkers a victory of sorts. So in come the whole she adopts herself as a grown adult into a dead family........ I mean these are more reasons why the ST is a pretty screwed up trilogy that makes the Skywalker Saga into the Palptatine Saga. It was always a huge mistake to make Kylo the last Skywalker and a villain too. Redemption or no redemption he has no good deeds and nobody talks about him in + light at any point except for delusional Rey.

"This becomes a contradictory goal because of both the story and the ostensible themes LFL what’s to promote; Rey is supposed to be the protagonist and a(n at least mildly) empowering story for female fans, but the story’s promotion of Kylo/Ben in place of Kylo was both done in a sexist and exploitive manner and done for exploitive (and thus sexism-friendly) reasons. Rey is supposed to on some level show that a female hero can do the story just as well as a dude; Ben is being promoted in a way that shows LFL didn’t think or want Rey to be a major character without him."

this was always bound to happen because he's the Skywalker of the story and a main villain though. Rey should just have been a Solo or Skywalker and problem solved.

and yeah JJ and his "fairy tale" like approach in both movies VII and IX when it came to Kylo and Rey.....


super cringe for his parents NOPE but for Rey.....

 

the dyad is BS and slap in face to Lucas. No way that this crap even fits what Lucas ever intended with the Rule of Two. Nor do I think Palps would have returned to begin with as it ruins his whole Anakin is Chosen One.....but naw just delays Palps death only for him to be killed by his granddaughter 30 years later, lol. But then this was always the ST issue, it acted like a sequel (more semi-reboot) to the OT and ignores the intent of the PT myths like Chosen One, Rule of Two etc but twists them to do whatever fits their story.

the whole dyad is super creepy and bizarre idea that is pretty much like you stated to force them together.

makes you wonder how much of Rey's feeling towards Kylo was duress and how much of it was geniune? We shall likely never know the answer and shows the problem with the whole thing.

I hope not, lets hope that Kylo is never mentioned again and he really shouldn't be. Just imagine, Rey telling her students about how Ben Solo saved me from the dead......PS he massacred the previous Academy but deep down was a nice guy. Naw Kylo should be nothing more then a cautionary tale nothing more. She should focus on praising and propping up the sacrifice of Luke and Leia instead as they are the ones who are the reason for the Jedi to have endured and thanks to them she is their successor to their Legacy. I mean KK has already said that Rey is super keen on keeping her promise to Luke and that the core of the story.

Easily the worst SW character around along with Grievous. I'm 100% glad that Kylo has no legacy except for death, doesn't deserve anything. Nor was he ever a sympathetic character either. Imagine basically killing 3/3 family and the lure of a women throughout "dyad" just to regain your head......he's a psycho.

 

They either listened to a whole subset of fans (and, let's face it, JJ and Kasdan (and Rian J) who decided the OT 3 were terrible people and Kylo was just a poor misunderstood woobie who needed someone to set him on the right path - or, more likely, there were LFL people who bought into it too (KK at the top of that list). That they threw all their other protagonists under the bus meant nothing. They were somehow convinced that they had their Anakin and Vader in one package and still do not understand that there were fans who were understandably upset by what was done to the OT 3 - and many fans after TlJ who were understandably upset by what was done to Rey, Finn and Poe. But they had a lovely "toxic fandom" narrative they could sell. It just finally collapsed in on itself in TROS.

 

You don't appreciate the cosmic beauty of being trapped in a toxic relationship????

 

But in the end Kylo was not just gonna be a monster for Ridley to react horroried or whatever. He was not only the villain who was always gonna need to be important, because he was villain, But he was also a Solo/Skywalker. And he is and likely was always gonna be the only offspring of that heritage for the 3rd generation. Which means that yes he was gonna get alot of focus in the films. He had to have some interaction with Rey that wasn't just "horror" and "disgust" while Rey and Finn go on adventures. Even more so when you realise that like the other 2 trilogies the next of episode 8 would need some hook that wasn't just il get you next time gadget!

LFL needed to go a direction like this with Kylo anyway. For TFA they just wanted him to be Darth Vader, that was their main goal. But as it became clear by episode 9, how his story finished was actually very important for the Skywalker saga. Infact even if Rey was a skywalker, Kylo ending would be more important due to his decision being way more impactful.

When people say its just because of Drivers looks, Im sorry but i think thats really silly. It sounds more petty than anything that Driver seems to be the hottest guy in Star Wars that unlike every other character, only he is written based on his looks. When no, he is written to be Kylo Ren, former Ben Solo. His heritage is full of 6 films worth of drama, death and history

 

Kylo being a Skywalker/Solo doesn't have to go hand in hand with Rey not being against him or not feeling horrified/disgusted at him. If the movies wanted to have it not be that, maybe they could've given them reason to not be. It didn't. Just handwaved with Rey being romantically into him for no real reason. Episode 8 presented no actual hook and certainly not one that carried into even, if it's legit, Colin Trevarrow's draft of EP 9.

It wasn't important in the movie as is, because Kylo, as a Skywalker had no real impact on the final conflict, just ensuring the protagonist Rey lived.

None of that history is in actually developed for his character in these movies. The idea of the character is presented as former Ben, but the movies never develop that character. I think even the OT explained more about Vader.

 

It doesn't have to be developed. His heritage is basically his Grandfather Anakin Skywalker, former jedi, who turned to the dark side and wiped out the Jedi. oh and is also the chosen one and space jesus. Oh and terrified the galaxy for 20 years. His uncle is Luke Skywalker, Son of Anakin Skywalker who redeemed his evil father from any more murder. Because he luckly didn't give into the dark side himself when he was at the peak of almost doing it. His father is a former rebellious scoundrel Han Solo And his mother is the former princess to now, General Leia. All heritage from the previous movies. So Ben Solo is a 3rd generation of all that heritage. Now whether they explored it or not. that heritage is still there in this skywalker saga of what was always gonna be 9 movies. not 6 movies and 3 more new stories.

I mean, id say we had about equal explanation as Vader in all honestly. It was just from a different angle. With Kylo they opened many hints like Snoke and Vaders Helmet without explanation. With Vader they didn't really explain much at all. We don't know why Vader turned to the dark side without the PT. And I suspect most people thought that Vader was just like Dooku in Tales from the Jedi rather than the tragic complicated figure he was that really requires you to accept that a good person can become the biggest evil monster in the galaxy.

Although in the trilogy itself, the message you kind of get is that when Ben turned to the dark side that was more his grandfather in him, and when he is good, its more his father in him. As there is alot of trying to parallel Vader and Kylo. And i include the stuff in episode 3 after Palpatine gives him the name Vader. But when Ben turned back, they reflected more on the similarities to his father with little gestures. Which again, thats heritage. Its a messy heritage, but then the Skywalkers are a messy heritage.

 

It does, because banking on the idea of just existing in a family that we know giving a character meaning doesn't make them a well written character, or have meaning to the current main story. It's just an idea.

Not really, as Vader had actual personal meaning to Luke and how Luke saw himself and what he meant for Luke and what Luke meant for him. In the OT, what is actually said about Anakin was that he was good friend, a good pilot, fought in the clone wars, was a jedi knight, had much anger in him, and turned to the dark side. All definitive statements about the life of this person. Not vague speaking about "too much Vader" "Snoke turned his heart" "there's still light in him". I think the most descriptive thing we get about Kylo that weighs on the potential of the person he was, "finishing what you (Vader) started" and "I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head". Neither are things the movie uses to not only weigh on the story of the character much at all, but also to weigh on the main character, which is Rey.

 

And yet none of that explains why he turned to the dark side does it? The logic being he was seduced by the dark side and what was a good person turned evil... thats all you hear. With Ben, while its never been stated he was a good friend, is also not stated he was a bad kid. Kylo tells Han that his son is gone, but Han has faith that his son isn't gone. And while some will say yeah but thats the ignorance of parents... Well yeah but there are also alot of people who have fake friends too and most of those don't try and kill you.

But again, its in the dialogue.

Well in the saga movies not everything needs to be about Rey. Just like not everything needed to be about Luke, who lets be reminded needed to be saved by his evil father. Yes the main character did not defeat the Emporer as the hero, it was his father who had to save him. That would be seen as weak if that had been Rey in that spot needing to be saved. Like a betrayal to the main character. Even though in the end she was the hero Luke couldn't be, so we can all be glad about that.

And then of course how the PT went from Qui-Gon being being front and center to what pretty much became Obi Wan and Anakin joint subplots before resulting in them fighting and trying to kill each other.

 

I didn't say in that post that it did. And that only exposes the poorness of Kylo's character. He's given way more resonance and personal focus than Vader is in regards to his life, but the ST doesn't get close to the amount of actual character relevance and information Vader had. It's pretty shocking that present day writers and directors and a multibilliondollar studio can't even replicate well movies made by people over 40 years ago with far less resources at their disposal.

The things that directly involve the main character does need to be about the main character and the things Kylo's involved in mostly directly involve the main character. Kylo has no worth to Rey as a character, and he has no worth to even himself as a character.

I never made any claim about needing to be rescued being a problem in that post. Why bring that up?

 

But id argue there is also abit of nostalgic bias, or at the very least a different mentality to how you perceived Vader to how you perceived Kylo, or in general the ST as a new addition to what you got used too originally.

If the OT was made today... would alot of that be seen the same way? Or would there be just as much critical thinking behind certain decisions? I suppose its no different to those that grew up with the PT loving them vs the people that didn't grow up with them finding many issues with them.

Because i think people would have an issue with that if Rey wasn't the hero of her own trilogy. People rant about how unfair Rey was treated because she was the main character and had to allow Ben Solo to develop when she shouldn't have too. It kinda shows more of a disconnection with how Star Wars has been handled previously. People are creating this over expectation of what it means to be in her spot, rather than Lucas's style of storytelling which has always been far more complicated than that.

The Irony really is that Rey had plenty of development. It just didn't follow expected guidelines. Which if you listen to what fans expected, yeah they are pretty much guidelines.